Author Topic: Tetraploid Satsuma  (Read 3806 times)

Till

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • Germany, Simmerath (City), Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2025, 08:41:19 AM »
What concentration of cholchizin is needed for doubling the chromosome number? Is it perhaps possible to just use the juice of cholchicum autumnale? It should contain up to 0,2% in the bulb, 0,03% in the leaves, 1,8% in the flowers according to wikipedia.

Skandiberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
    • Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2025, 09:31:26 AM »
Uhh, if I remember well, something like 0,5 percent but I am not sure. My memory is not to be relied on.

I had only one pot so I just added a tiny bit of gibberellic acid to some ethanol to make it dissolve in water easier. And added water to the mix. I had no idea how much I used of it because I can't measure such small quantities so it was absolutely hit and miss. I will expose those poor Nova seedlings to a few experiments but that's all I need them for.

But if that seedling with very narrow leaves keeps that leaf shape in the future, it may indicate that something happened, probably due to the treatment. I wondered if that single preleaf is some kind of weak third cotyledon that developed as a result of the treatment, during the germination process. I see no other explanation to its existence, besides being pollinated by some Poncirus-like plant but I guess that's not likely to happen in a normal Citrus plantation. Anyhow, we'll see. If it stays alive.

Till

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • Germany, Simmerath (City), Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2025, 03:26:54 AM »
I also did my best yesterday to search for the right percentage of colchicin in the internet. There is not much information around and the amount of colchicin used varies from experiment to experiment and from species to species. But the amount in the bulb of Cholchicum autumnale seems to be sufficient to double the chromosome number.
I want to try the juice of Cholchicum in spring, not on Citrus but on growing buds of two Sorbus hybrids. I hope that I will have time enough and be successful. If so I am going to post it here.

mikkel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 747
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2025, 05:40:19 AM »
Maybe you already have seen it:

https://gardenscientist.wordpress.com/2013/09/09/inducing-polyploids/

I can send you a more detailed description that I received from Ethan Nielsen.
He uses Surflan instead of Oryzalin

Skandiberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
    • Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2025, 02:39:27 PM »
Mikkel,

Sorry, I just realize I forgot to answer to this.

Thank you for the link!

I looked up Surflan and oryzalin as well. It seems they are banned in the EU now. I found only Chinese sources.

In the meantime my Nova seedlings are getting on. The seedling with the narrow leaves is still like that. No new leaves yet.

These are the seedlings:



The one with the narrow leaves and a prelaf/underdeveloped third cotyledon or whatever on the stem:



And here is a polyembrionic seedling. One of the two has a pair of first leaves like it's meant to be but the other one has one leaf and a tiny leaflet instead:



It seems to me the treatment actually did something to a few of the seeds. Is it correct or I am misjudging them and it's normal? At this point I don't know if it's anything good or bad. But much to my surprise, I just saw two more seeds germinating. I sowed them in December. As I recall, most of them came up after 6-9 weeks.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 02:41:53 PM by Skandiberg »

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2025, 11:55:09 PM »
I can make a comment about why there is probably little interest in trying to develop more cold hardy varieties in Japan, and it has to do with the special climate conditions and geography in Japan.
Hopefully this is not too off-topic.

The climate geography in Japan has some significant differences from the United States, or Europe.

It's true you can find Satsuma and, rarely, a few other varieties of mandarin oranges growing in small gardens in the surrounding Tokyo area, and in Kyoto. And they do grow very adequately in that area, where the majority of the country's population is concentrated.

However, it still should be realized that mandarin oranges (and even Yuzu) still do not grow well enough in these areas to really be commercially viable or justify big orchards. Nearly all of Japan's commercial citrus is concentrated on the southernmost of the main islands, Kyushu, and usually on south-facing slopes to maximize heat. 
And remember, labor costs are higher in Japan and the productivity of the agricultural workers is lower, most of whom are aged (the average age of a Japanese farmer is an amazing 68.7 years old), and Japanese farmers have some difficulty competing against cheaper imports. So it's not like Japan is looking to expand citrus production.

When you look at a plant hardiness zone map for Japan, nearly all of the main areas in the nation where people are concentrated is in climate zone 9b. It's almost surprising how little variation there is. Very little of the area is zone 10a, and only a small amount of 9a.
Once you go about 100 km north of Tokyo, the winter temperatures quickly become colder and enter zone 8b (with a very narrow area of 9a right along the coast). Zone 9b is like the reasonable practical limit for regular citrus growing, and even then usually only slightly hardier more cold-tolerant varieties can do well or grow adequately. And much north of Tokyo, the climate is not like zone 9b in the U.S. Southeast. Rather it's more comparable to zone 9b in the U.S. Pacific Northwest, along the coast of Oregon for example. The citrus does not get as long a period of heat throughout the year. 

The climate is very much shaped by the ocean currents, and north of about Tokyo is where the warm ocean current from the south abruptly gives way to much colder ocean currents coming from the north (on Japan's east coast, which is less cold during the colder half of the year than Japan's west coast). Tokyo is about the same latitude as central North Carolina. But because Japan is surrounded by water, the winter temperatures do not drop as low.
Only about 30% of Japan's total population lives north of Tokyo. And with the exception of some parts of [the northernmost island] Hokkaido, which is too cold to grow citrus, the area north of Tokyo is poorer and seen as less desirable. Japan's wealth has also been concentrated into high density city areas (mainly around Tokyo) more than almost any other country, but unfortunately the great majority of people who live in these areas - probably about half the country's total population - do not have any real yard space to be able to grow a big tree.

So the innovation, motivation and resources to develop more cold tolerant citrus is not really there, so much.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2025, 12:17:44 AM »
Why they didn't test its hardiness is beyond me.

38 degrees already gets you to between Niigata and Sendai, so you're rapidly running out of extra room to grow citrus, unless you really want to try it on Hokkaido.
There are not many areas of Japan that are in zone 9a. So it's not like it's a natural progression between zone 9b and the colder areas.

A plant hardiness map can be seen here
https://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-japan-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php

Maybe only in the hills around Kyoto (the majority of which are nature reserve protected near the city), the Noto peninsula that juts into the Sea of Japan, and a small coastal strip south of it, and the region not farther than about 100 km north of Tokyo (Saitama Prefecture and Ibaraki Prefecture) would be good candidates for wanting to grow cold hardy citrus.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2025, 02:35:15 AM »
The main advantage of a tetraploid Satsuma, I am imagining, would be its usefulness for trying to produce a new citrus variety, since a cross between a tetraploid and a normal diploid usually results in a triploid offspring, which will be guaranteed to be "seedless" (or nearly so, with mostly only tiny shriveled up seed remnants, though there may be the occasional rare seed). This is one of the common strategies that has been used to develop some of the "seedless" citrus varieties.

Of course the Satsuma variety is mostly seedless for a different reason (and especially so if there was no pollination from any other nearby citrus of a different variety).
(Satsuma is "seedless" because the variety is parthenocarpic, able to produce fruits without requiring pollination, combined with it having "sterile" pollen, actually just very low pollen viability)
If there is pollination, you might get 2 or 3 seeds in a fruit, which is still rather low. Another problem with breeding is that Satsuma produces around 90 percent nucellar seed - meaning genetic clones of the fruit parent. Only the remaining 10 percent or so will have genes resulting from genetic recombination. And using it as the male parent might be more difficult, but not impossible, due to the low pollen viability, going to take a lot of pollen and probably that will not result in many seeds (or many fruits for a variety that requires pollination).

But nevertheless, in other ways Satsuma would be an ideal parent for cold hardy citrus breeding. Due to its excellent flavor and fruit quality combined with decent cold tolerance (for a commercial edible citrus fruit).

This is just from memory, so it may not be correct, but I recall reading that citrus tetraploids typically have slightly larger leaf and flower size. But are also a little less overall healthy and vigorous growing, and moderately more reluctant to fruit. It might or probably would confer a little more cold tolerance, but I do not think the effect would be very great, unless possibly if we are discussing poncirus hybrids.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 03:01:35 AM by SoCal2warm »

bussone

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • Philadelphia, PA (7a)
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2025, 04:01:54 PM »
Why they didn't test its hardiness is beyond me.

38 degrees already gets you to between Niigata and Sendai, so you're rapidly running out of extra room to grow citrus, unless you really want to try it on Hokkaido.
There are not many areas of Japan that are in zone 9a. So it's not like it's a natural progression between zone 9b and the colder areas.

A plant hardiness map can be seen here
https://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-japan-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php

Maybe only in the hills around Kyoto (the majority of which are nature reserve protected near the city), the Noto peninsula that juts into the Sea of Japan, and a small coastal strip south of it, and the region not farther than about 100 km north of Tokyo (Saitama Prefecture and Ibaraki Prefecture) would be good candidates for wanting to grow cold hardy citrus.

My argument to the question of "why didn't they test its hardiness" was that they already can grow it to 38 degrees north, and if you go any further north, you start to run out of Japan. Sendai is already pretty far up Honshu, so unless you have determined to grow oranges in Aomori or in Hokkaido, there is little point to pushing farther north with Japanese citrus.

\as for North Carolina, Wilmington is as far north as Los Angeles.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2025, 03:22:52 AM »
My argument to the question of "why didn't they test its hardiness" was that they already can grow it to 38 degrees north, and if you go any further north, you start to run out of Japan. Sendai is already pretty far up Honshu, so unless you have determined to grow oranges in Aomori or in Hokkaido, there is little point to pushing farther north with Japanese citrus.
To be totally fair, I think Satsuma is going to be difficult to actually grow in Sendai.

I found one video with the title: "Global warming brings changes to agriculture: Japan's northernmost mikan [mandarin orange] cultivation in Yamamoto Town, Miyagi".
That implies that it was not known that Satsuma mandarins could grow there or that they did not traditionally grow there.  Yamamoto Town is 40 km south of Sendai, and is right on the coast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hryq8vkBo9g

If you look at those trees and their leaves, it does not look as healthy as they look further south. This is exactly what one would expect from a colder, cooler oceanic climate that is right on the edge of what these trees can tolerate. Also notice all the greenhouse coverings in the background. That is not a coincidence.

As I stated before, Japan's climate very rapidly becomes colder after going north of Tokyo.

In this area, it's probably as much the lack of heat throughout much of the year (other than summer) as it is the absolute cold temperatures in winter.

Asia has a strange climate. There are very cold winds that blow from Siberia to the west. These cold winds flow over the Sea of Japan, and are only warmed a little bit. The mountains of Japan help block this wind a little. The fact that Japan is surrounded by ocean helps prevent temperatures from dropping lower than it would otherwise be, given Japan's close location to the continent of Asia. But, especially north of around Tokyo, the ocean also means that temperatures are going to be kept cooler throughout the year. So the moderation of temperatures works both ways. It will not get as cold but it will also not get as warm. The temperature of the ocean water off the coast of Sendai in mid-March is around 42 to 51 degrees Fahrenheit (5.6 to 10.6 C). Citrus cannot really grow in those type of cool to cold marine temperatures. Even by late April the ocean temperature is still only 48 to 58 F.

Some might counter by trying to tell me that citrus can still grow in the south island of New Zealand, and you'd be correct (though citrus really has trouble ripening there). However, we are talking about growing very close to the coast. Those on the south island of New Zealand know citrus does not grow well near the coast with wind exposure. And in this part of Japan, close to the coast is all there is, because otherwise there are mountains.
My point is that these climate zone maps can be a little misleading when they are in very cool to cold oceanic climates.

At 2:33 into the video they show a map of the area where Satsuma mandarins (unshu mikan) grow in Japan. It's not a large area, compared to the country's total area.

According to the climate zone maps, Yamamoto Town (in Japan) appears like it would be roughly equivalent to the coast of Oregon at the central latitude of the state (in the U.S.).
(probably with slightly warmer longer more humid summers)
I also suspect that despite the climate zone designations, this part of Japan may at rare times be subject to a little bit lower temperatures than would be expected for that same zone on the U.S. Pacific Coast. The lowest temperature recorded for Iwaki, Japan is -10.7°C (12.7°F), which is 150 km south of Sendai, while for Sendai it's -11.7°C (10.9°F), but that was probably further away from the coast near a mountain valley. So I think we can assume the lowest possible temperature for Sendai right near the coast would be somewhere between those two. That is definitely cold enough to be able to kill a Yuzu tree.
(Though to be entirely fair, the lowest temperature recorded for Lincoln City, in Oregon, was 4° F (-16° C) in early December of 1972, but I think low temperatures like that are much rarer on Oregon's coast than in Japan, only about once every 40 years. For comparison, the lowest temperatures on record for Fukushima and Sendai happened very recently, in 2024 and 2025. sources for that here: Coldest Morning of the Season Occurs in Many Locations Across Japan, Yomiuei Shimbun, Japan Times, Nov 19, 2024 ; and here: https://www.visualcrossing.com/weather-history/Sendai%2CJapan/ )

for those interested in more detail about the difficulties trying to grow citrus in the more southerly parts of New Zealand, some information was gleaned from a blog post here:
https://www.craftygardener.co.nz/?post_id=24

I emphasize again that this phenomena is very different from the growing conditions in the U.S. Southeast or in most of Europe (maybe unless you're in Scotland).

You can also see this video, which shows someone in Cork, Ireland attempting to grow a Satsuma and a desert lime (Eremocitrus Glauca) against a south-facing concrete block fence wall, between two houses. Due to the very cool oceanic climate, citrus is very difficult to grow, despite being in zone 9b.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpoodc_PVU

At the latitude of Tokyo, or even Osaka, Japan is a little bit of a "cold marine" environment (compared to China) but it really becomes prominent just a little north of Tokyo.

Japan's northern main island, Hokkaido, in fact, has a climate comparable to Germany or Scandinavia despite being at the latitude of northern Italy. Florence is farther north than Hokkaido's biggest city Sapporo. That would be another discussion though, since the citrus growing zone ends much further south than anywhere near Hokkaido.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 06:07:26 AM by SoCal2warm »

Mabus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24
    • South Germany
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2025, 09:48:35 AM »
If you want to use cholchicine, just get the plant autum crocus. Get the juice out of it and treat one branch of your citrus. If the branch survives , it should double the chromosome.

Also if you want to get idiot proof manuals how to use cholchicine with plants, look for weed. They got extremely idiotproof manuals. And a lot of them.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2025, 09:57:21 AM by Mabus »

citrange

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • UK - 15 miles west of London
    • View Profile
    • Home Citrus growers
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2025, 03:01:07 PM »
A few years ago I tried growing various citrus seeds in pots containing soil mixed with crushed colchicum bulbs.
First, the bulbs were quite expensive.
Second I got a bit scared after reading
'Colchicine poisoning causes abdominal cramps and diarrhea within hours. Several days later, multiorgan failure, pancytopenia, and cardiovascular collapse occur. Severe colchicine poisoning is associated with high mortality.'
So, I washed out our kitchen blender very, very thoroughly - and never told my wife what I was doing!
All the seeds germinated normally and didn't appear to have been effected at all by the colchicine.

Quote
Also if you want to get idiot proof manuals how to use cholchicine with plants, look for weed.
Explain what this means??

Mabus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24
    • South Germany
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2025, 04:09:01 AM »
The colchicine needs to be applied during their growth phase. It disrupts cell division, causing chromosomal dublications.

The seeds probably did not grow during the phase of cholicin exposure. I would recommend soaking parts of the plant (sprouts or even just a single branch) during a growth spurt.

Also plant some of the bulbs in your garden, I got mine during my youth cheap on a Christmas market. They still grow to this day and I can harvest plant matter anytime I want. And since every part of that plant is highly poisonous, any part will work.


Oh and a fun fact, there are reported cases of goats/cows eating to much of that flower and poisoning their milk as a result.

Lauta_hibrid

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
    • Argentina, Buenos Aires, La Plata 9B
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2025, 11:36:11 PM »
Hello, colchicine is sold over the counter here, and I've done experiments with it... but so far I haven't found any signs of mutation... let's keep in mind that there aren't many factors that could be used to determine this. There are also many variables and things not mentioned in the scientific study, such as the percentage of embryonic deaths... sometimes you have 60% or more of the plants burned by it, and of those that remain, only 6 or 10% are of diverse ploidy, or whatever... it's very difficult, even though I've tried several times... I haven't been able to confirm anything yet, but I did it on banana seedlings, sprouted Citrus seeds, and I was thinking of extending it to something else... it's complicated work and requires statistics. This year I'm going to see if I can do a mini-graft on a seedling and then submerge it in a solution... to obtain a mutated adult plant. And I'm going to do the same with the Morton and Meiwa seedlings.  Here the tablets are 1mg... so for 10ML you use 10 tablets... but each recorded experiment uses different concentrations and immersion times... you just have to experiment a lot and at most use a laboratory to see some range that shows the mutation, like the pollen size... but like everything it's a matter of trying as many times as you can until it works. I'll keep trying for my part, if I have the money 😅. The main thing is to look for good bibliography.

Skandiberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
    • Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2025, 03:21:38 AM »
An update.

All the affected Nova seedlings died. I have a few ones left that all look normal. Actually, one has distorted first leaves but it's just like the ones I saw with other Citrus seedlings so I think it's no big deal.

These seedlings did absolutely nothing for nearly three months. They had their first pairs of leaves and that's all. When real warmth and longer days kicked in two weeks ago, they began to grow. I'm not sure if it's due to winter conditions or the ghibberellin treatment that they were dormant for months. They were in the bedroom, having ample warmth but no extra light. I nearly dumped them to the compost pile. Fortunately they began to grow before I could have done so.

When I crushed their leaves, I detected a very pleasant scent. Similar to mandarin but deeper. I hope they will grow well.

All in all, the experiment was successful itself because something clearly happened to some of the seedlings but the affected plants died. I will try again this coming winter with more seeds.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk