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Messages - pagnr

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 09, 2023, 03:04:09 PM »
The Nansho Dai Dai fruit I have tried are very sour, much more so than Rough Seville Sour Orange. Possibly Gou Tou comes close, but not quite.
As for the foliage there are other "Willow Leaf" Sour Oranges and also Sweet Oranges with long narrow foliage.
Willow leaf variants could be possible ?
The type in Australia probably came from UC Riverside collection.
Citrus miaray, from the Phillipines is pretty close to Citrus Taiwanica.

Not sure if the original question is any more clear now, possibly info about the fruit flavours of the variant types, and in Taiwan would help.

The Taiwanica type here is a very attractive tree, with its narrow foliage and the way the fruit hangs in it around the outside.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Calamondin as female parent
« on: March 09, 2023, 02:41:20 PM »
I planted a Sour Orange seed that I received from a Catholic Nun in a New Jersey Convent, and it fruited in its 8th year.  Now it produces more fruit then I can ever use.

It is hard to work out if that is due to luck, good management or Divine Intervention ??

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Loquat fruit fly
« on: March 08, 2023, 06:33:58 PM »
Take a minute for us in Australia.

I have Fruit Fly in my Loquat fruit.
Lorikeets eating my Loquat Fruit.
Locusts under my Loquat tree.

Is that a Haiku ?
Or a Limerick ?

All this due to changed weather patterns.
Not getting the cold winters so much any more, so fruit fly can overwinter.
Not sure where the Lorikeets came from, only turned up in the last ten years.
Not really complaining about them, beautiful birds, but they can mow thru a fruit tree.
The Locusts, didn't see so many this year, but there was an nymph alert from the Plague Locusts Commission ( a dedicated area of Govt here).
There was a Locust plague some years back, filling the sky. This year it was Dragonflies like never before.

I had one Loquat seedling come up in a shade house, it fruited and missed the fruit fly that got the outdoor trees.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 08, 2023, 03:46:47 PM »
Exceptions to Plant Breeders' Rights
In this, the following acts do not infringe upon PBR: Certain acts done for private, experimental or breeding purposes. Conditioning and use of farm saved seed. The use and sale of propagative material of the relevant variety as a food, ingredient or fuel.
Exceptions to the Rights

Monopoly rights do not extend to the propagating material of the protected plant variety in all circumstances. The following acts are not an infringement of the Plant Breeder's Right:

The use of the variety privately and for non-commercial purposes, for experimental purposes, and for breeding other plant varieties. A variety can be used for these purposes irrespective of the existence of Plant Breeder's Rights.

Similar in Europe it seems.

I guess it would be the same in USA.

The grey area might possibly more in enforcing your rights against a Corporation or University with big $$, legal Depts, expert witnesses from the Horticulture Dept, and the facilities to DNA test etc. I don't think the truth or the rules count for much in Legal cases, until the very end ( if then ) and if you can get there.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 08, 2023, 03:29:04 PM »
ls there any reason to think that the Taiwanica from Adavo and Lenzi are really Taiwanica, and not just something they grew from seed and marketed ?
They have a multitude of interesting Citrus on their websites, but some clearly don't match original descriptions from elsewhere.
I grew Taiwanica from seed, seedlings seemed highly identical with narrow leaves etc.
One occasionally fruits, but the fruit is closer to a mandarin than the original Taiwanica fruit.
The seed came from a collection, and the next door plant was a mandarin.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 08, 2023, 02:28:48 PM »
You can see how this creates a gray area, since there's no easy way to know what kind of seedling a particular seed will produce, without doing a DNA test. Mangoes and citrus produce seeds with both zygotic and nucellar embryos, and there's no reliable way to distinguish between them.

I am not seeing the grey area so much.

If you grow polyembryonic Mangoes for rootstock ( also polyembryonic Citrus ), it is reasonably easy to tell which are clones for rootstocks.
More so it is fairly easy to tell which are not a clone as they stand out from the rest.
If it really comes down to it, yes you are visually assessing the clones and making assumptions, but this is routinely done in grafting nurseries.
Some pretty close off types certainly get through and some clones are also size graded out.

The issue of propagating a protected fruit tree will probably only arise when it actually fruits.
Ornamental protected plants ie selected foliage types, dwarf hedge varieties etc etc will be breaching rules at any stage. They are protected for visual characters like foliage size colour etc.
Until the protected fruit tree actually fruits it could be difficult to distinguish. The original developer could probably do so based on Mango leaf shape and colour of growth tips etc without a DNA test.
If there is no reliable way to tell which polyembryonic seedling of variety X is a clone, then the reverse is true, there is no reliable way to tell which is not.
Although incorrect, it could be assumed that all polyembryonic seedlings are clones until proved otherwise.
The best strategy is probably quietly grow the seedlings until they fruit. By that time the developer may have move on to newer types also.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Calamondin as female parent
« on: March 08, 2023, 01:58:31 PM »
Another good point about Calamondin is that it is reasonably fast to fruit from seed, maybe 5 years, certainly not 15.
The plant is on the smaller side, so possibly the node count for flowering is lower ?
It doesn't take too many growth seasons to get to full size
Either way you won't be waiting those long years for the hybrid to flower, depending on the other parent.

I remember reading about another Phillipines variety Calamandarin.
I think both it and Calamondin were also used as rootstocks over there.
Interesting that other Calamondin hybrids are not well known or heard of, even though Calamondin / Kalamansi is cemented in Philippines culture.

The success rate of hybrids is an interesting question.
If the rate is low, you have a few much wanted plants to deal with and a bigger bunch of unwanted plants to deal with.
You may be able to use these as rootstocks for the hybrids ?
I have found it nearly essential to graft from hybrids to ensure survival long term.
(Some of my most interesting unusual off type seedlings now only survive on rootstocks, the originals often died.)
Also you can easily then multiply a few hybrid seedlings to many seperate plants on rootstock.
Grafting to other more established rootstock will also push the hybrid to flowering faster by growth alone.
After that you can either repeat the hybridisation cross, or just grow the next generation seedlings of the first hybrid to get more variable " hybrid " types.
That might be more interesting if they are zygotic, as you are reshuffling the original hybrid cross for new versions.

If the hybrid success rate is high, you have a lot of plants to deal with, pot up, possibly graft, and assess long term for worthwhile characters.
I am pretty sure professional breeders throw out a lot of interesting stuff that doesn't meet the original reason for the  hybridisation cross often based on arbitrary reasons.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 07, 2023, 05:24:39 PM »
I think Citrus glauca grown in a big reverse L shape from Western QLD down to Broken Hill / Menindee near the Victorian NSW border.
Then across South Australia toward the Nullarbor.
Some Australian plants are Phosphorous sensitive, and Citrus are somewhat P sensitive, in that excess can cause Iron deficiency.
The area they grow in is pretty hot, possibly more arid woodland or Chenopod shrubland than desert. It would vary from summer rain in the Nth to winter rain in the south.
Winter temperatures can drop low, but overall they would be pretty mild.
Many Australian Citrus seedlings can be slow growers.
David, does your location get hot enough to match the wild conditions. Maybe a glasshouse etc might help ?

I am going to fudge the answer.
I think I am allowed to as you said " when you're hungry and you don't want processed food "  ( ie Fudge )
Coconut, so versatile many stages and uses.
Pistachio and Cashew.
Green Flageolet Beans, Black Turtle Beans,
Lime, Durian,
Chempadek, Marang, Pedali.
It may shock some on the forum, but the roasted seed of these Artocarpus are very nice too, crab like flavour.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 07, 2023, 12:54:22 AM »
why so many glaucas though?  does japan have any deserts?  i think that the main benefit of glauca would be to develop more drought tolerant varieties of citrus.  is there another benefit?

based on the few threads i've read here it seems like the priority is improving citrus cold tolerance.  i guess more people live in colder areas than drier areas?

The Australian/PNG citrus often show useful disease resistance, too.

Maybe it is for the ornamental home garden trade, fruit trees are pretty popular in home yards, even one or two. Pot plants are also popular for balconies and courtyards.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 06, 2023, 08:45:48 PM »
The way of grafting Citrus in Japan, and the tools used are different to the West. ( Kogatana knife ?). Also different tape ?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yet another soil thread
« on: March 06, 2023, 02:03:52 PM »
I prefer riversand about the grade of brown sugar or above. 1mm to 2mm upwards. You could run the sand thru sieves and check the grades in it.
3 or 4 different mesh sieves ( even kitchen strainers ) will give you a good profile.
It can vary from lot to lot or source or season.
The pic looks ok, but you could possibly remove the finest particles and use them elsewhere, or mix in another ingredient to compensate.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 06, 2023, 01:44:09 PM »
I always thought that pure glauca is 100% zygotic.
Are these plant some sort of  hybrids? They look amazingly uniform in appearance.

With other species, ie Eucalypt, Acacia, Syzygium, etc grown for environmental replanting, the bulk seedlings are highly uniform, more so from one seed tree.
Between seed trees there can be visible differences in the seedlings.
For forestry, some selected seed trees give highly uniform seedlings and reliable final tall straight timber trees.
I would guess most of the above would be zygotic.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 06, 2023, 06:15:16 AM »
Are these trees at a University or Botanical Garden ?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: OxiDate, Any experiance use this on citrus?
« on: March 06, 2023, 02:43:33 AM »
Hydrogen Peroxide is added to drip irrigation systems to combat the bacterial biofilms in the irrigation lines. It is also used on cucumber farms to enhance growth and combat root disease. There would be a rate it is applied at, that might give you something to work with.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 04, 2023, 02:44:01 PM »
To perhaps add to the confusion, I believe I read somewhere within the TFF that there can be differences within "clonal" seedlings--if I remember correctly (and it's a big if), they'll have the same genes, but they can be expressed differently?

The genes in the DNA are not fixed in place, there is an amount of swapping around on the strands.
If clonal seeds have the genes ABCDE, it is possible that differences could arise if a seedling  ended up with ABEDC, ( same genes different order )
or ABCD3 ( same genes E reversed ).
As there are 2 DNA strands in the genome, there can also be swapping between the strands.
A hybrid variety could be ABCDE on one strand and abcde on the other strand.
Seedling could have the same genes, but in different arrangements ie swapped AbCDE / aBcde.
When the genes are read, there may be slight or bigger differences in expression.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Root rot cure
« on: March 04, 2023, 04:05:03 AM »
I shall try that. I have moss (the common type from the lawn),

Do you mean the moss that grows on rocks or damp places ?
Peat moss refers to bog peat, harvested from a wetland area, usually produced by the breakdown of reeds and sedges ( marsh plants ) underwater.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 04, 2023, 03:58:45 AM »
Yes, I should have been more clear that the polyembryonic mango seedling was an identical clonal. If it was one of the Zygotic embryos it would be a different case.
I think most people who grow a seedling of a known variety aim to get the same or pretty close to it, if that is genetically likely.
In Australia there is a plant breeders exemption for growing patented varieties.
Possibly by the time your seedling fruits to any real extent, the varieties would have moved on, and new ones in the spotlight.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 04, 2023, 12:23:58 AM »
With the polyembryonic mango seed, if the patent applied to a mango variety with the characteristics ABCD, the clonal seedling would also have the characteristics ABCD and would be indistinguishable for patent purposes. A zygotic might be ABCd if you are lucky, who knows if that would infringe the patent. I guess it becomes ABCD$$$$$ vs ABCd$$ ??
I hear there was a case in Australia with giant blueberries where the patent holder took action against another grower who started growing "a Version" of the original.
Those are the developer growers words, so he wasn't explicit on the how and why.
It probably comes down to the level you are operating on.
Some may recall the music file downloading cases where major music companies went after teenagers who " illegally " downloaded music, in test cases or to set an example.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 03, 2023, 10:33:50 PM »
I think it would be very difficult for species from the mainland to reach Taiwan by natural means, perhaps not impossible. Most likely any original citrus species that were brought to Taiwan were brought there by humans - the Chinese. (With the exception of C. tachibana which was probably indigenous to either Taiwan or Southern Japan, or perhaps both)

One of the historic Japanese Citrus varieties ( sorry can't think which ) is said to have been grown from a fruit found on the beach several hundred years ago.

That could be true, but possibly also told to cover up contact with China by ordinary people in Feudal Japan ?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu
« on: March 03, 2023, 08:11:02 PM »
Yuzu is used extensively as a flavouring in Japan for all kinds of products from Ponzu sauces for cooking stock, to snacks and candy.
There was a one off version of Yuzu Doritos corn chips some years back as a promo, other Yuzu snack chips are available.
My local Asian grocery had cans of Yuzu soft drink for a while ( also Kabosu ). Mainly for Japanese backpacker seasonal farm workers, along with other Japanese groceries.

The fruit evaluation data from NARO is kind of neat. Anyone know what "drip amount" in the evaluation data is? I can't seem to find any other sources using "drip amount" in citrus evaluation. Is that just the amount of leakage from the fruit, or something else?

Is it the excess juice from eating a fruit ? 
Might be connected to the ASMR tik tok videos of people eating fruit ??

Yes the article is old, more for info about the Fruit Tree research stations in FNQ, ( FYI ).
The archives might be good to back track varieties you are looking for.
Here is a FB page for RFC in FNQ, now called Rare Fruit Australia.

In Australia there are several Tropical Fruit research stations in Nth Qld that hold Mango varieties. Not sure about access to propagation material.
I think Ayr in Nth Qld researches Mango.
The Rare Fruit Council would be a good starting point to track down unusual varieties.
I think Daley's Forum had a post with a list of Mango varieties in Australia.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Calamondin as female parent
« on: February 28, 2023, 01:32:27 PM »
It has good properties as the female parent. It reliably sets and holds fruit normally without much trouble.
It has genes from Mandarin type Citrus and Fortunella. If You pollinate from a Citrus distant from these two, the hybrid will genes from 3 Citrus groups
The fruit are sour but without unusual off flavours.
It is said to be nucellar, but I have also got variable seedlings from Calamondin, not crossed, just interesting variations.

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