Author Topic: Kumquat x Poncirus  (Read 4913 times)

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2022, 02:59:21 PM »
The citrumquats have survived winter inground. The lowest temperature was -13/-14 C, or possibly a bit lower. They have been covered with peat, rafia, straw and white cloth. It seems they have inherited the strong dormancy trait from kumquat. They are growing now but with a delay compared to Poncirus.

Amber. New growth is appearing. No bark damage.


Maroon. This is the most vigorous one. New growth is appearing. Also no bark damage.


Carmine. Growing but has some bark damage and significant twig damage.


For comparison citsuma Prague has frozen nearly to the ground level. Only the rootstock and a few centimeters of Prague wood are alive. The rootstock is not pure Poncirus, but a citrange or citrumelo.


vnomonee

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2022, 05:30:59 PM »
 Awesome, thanks for sharing.

Also do you think the citsuma died back because the rootstock didn't go dormant? I am worried about mine outside in zone 7a if it's going to die like this from only -14c! But mine is on pure poncirus.

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2022, 05:06:25 AM »
It might be due to the rootstock. The plant has been inground since 2018, but it usually freezes in winter and then regrows. Grafting it on Poncirus would be a good idea.

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2022, 05:19:01 AM »
next step: backcross to Kumquat :)

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2022, 12:42:25 PM »
Mikkel, for my zone 6 climate I'd rather grow F2 generation of these citrumquats. Or try to produce hybrids of these citrumquats with another F1 citrus-Poncirus hybrid. There should be some very hardy plants among big populations.
But for a warmer climate a backcross to kumquat might be good too.

Now I hope that the few following winters will be relatively mild. Then the plants should survive and maybe will flower. No idea whether the fruits will ripen here, but at least pollen should be usable for breeding.

Another possibility is that someone else will obtain fruits of these citrumquats faster, growing them in a warmer zone or in a greenhouse. Then I'd be interested in getting the seeds.

BorisR

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2022, 03:39:47 AM »
Hello, Marcin!
You have excellent results.
In the future you can try the cross of your citrquats with the ichangquat that Ilya has. In addition to good winter hardiness, it has a short fruit ripening period.

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2022, 04:39:41 PM »
I think the advantage of backcrossing to kumquat is to improve the fruit while reinforcing the good winter dormancy....
For winter hardiness, of course, it would need a strong selection from many seedlings. Most of them will not be hardy enough... So far the theory :)
The practical side is that they must first mature and form fruit.
I could imagine that a foil greenhouse could already work well with you, the summers with you are warmer than here and a foil greenhouse could push them properly. Just as @kumin has done. He has already had some flowering trees after 3 years that way.
I also dream of a garden in the south where I can raise the seedlings until they bloom.... or a cooperation with someone in the south..

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2022, 01:40:34 PM »
BorisR, thanks for the reply. Do you know the ripening time of that ichangquat? Is it shorter than that of kumquat (5-6 months)?

Mikkel, yes in theory with strong selection you can get such a backcross nearly as hardy as the original F1 citrumquat. The question is what is the maximum frost hardiness of these citrumquats? After this winter it's not bad, the two plants had only damaged leaves and a few twigs. But a stronger winter may prove that their hardiness is insufficient for my climate.

BorisR

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2022, 02:46:47 PM »
Do you know the ripening time of that ichangquat?
It seems about 4 months. Ilya will tell you more precisely if he reads this topic. However, Ilya mentioned that this ichangquat may turn out to be a triploid, because its seeds are very rare.

vnomonee

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2022, 02:52:34 PM »
What do you think about Fortunella Hindsii, it ripens quickly but the taste is like acidic carrot lol. It's a very hardy kumquat supposedly taking down to -15c... I haven't tried to verify this yet. An idea I have is pollinate with poncirus, grow out the tree then backcross that to a sweet tasting kumquat like Meiwa. so offspring would be 1/4 poncirus and 3/4 kumquat. Thomasville citrangequat is 1/4 poncirus 1/4 orange and only 1/2 kumquat it can die to the ground in zone 7a also the fruit do not ripen until way past hard freezes here so I am not interested in this particular plant.

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2022, 04:46:14 PM »
4 months is fast. It seems an interesting citrus hybrid.

Fortunella hindsii is a good candidate for breeding in my opinon, thanks to its very short juvenile period. Even its small seedlings can fruit. I don't have pure hindsii, also I won't judge on its hardiness, but I've produced some hybrids with hindsii descendants - procimequat and Reale mandarinquat. One seedling Nagami kumquat x Procimequat has already flowered at a low node. So there's hope that the fast flowering trait from hindsii can be passed to the next generations of hybrids.
It would be worth to try combining hindsii genes with Poncirus. I wish you good luck with your plans!

Till

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2022, 03:07:55 AM »
Great news, Marcin!
My ideas to the suggestions made here:
--> Ilya said that it is almost impossible to create hybrids with his ichangquat. So I would not invest the time. A better idea might be to cross with pure C. ichangensis or Yuzu. A yuzu seedling of mine has withstand late frost of almost -10C at the end of april without twig damage while poncirus lost almost all buds and almost all the growth of last year. Yuzu has also a more or less edible rind.
--> A back cross to edible poncirus might also be good.
--> I am a bit skeptical about the idea of backcrossing to kumquat. The heat requirement of kumquat is very high. That might be detrimental for your climate. We want plants that have a good dormancy (better then poncirus) but plants that don't stay dormant till summer as does kumquat in my climate (cool atlantic climate). I have though no experience with F. hindsii. It might perform better.

But as always: Theory is nice but experiments are better. Your cross has already falsified a time honored theory that poncirus and kumquat do not hybridize.

Citradia

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2022, 06:32:46 PM »
I like Meiwa. I wonder if the skin on a Meiwa/poncirus hybrid will taste nice. Or it might taste like poncirus. Wont know til ya pop it in your mouth and chew it up!

BorisR

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2022, 03:08:26 PM »
4 months is fast. It seems an interesting citrus hybrid.
Refreshed my memory. On the Ukrainian forum, Ilya posted photos of ichangquat fruits, which ripened in about 2.5 months.

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2022, 04:22:27 PM »
The big disadvantage of hindsii is that probably only the tetraploid version is available. At least I have not seen the diploid version yet. But this would inevitably lead to triploid offspring. Only in rare cases can triploids produce seed. I believe procimquat is such a case (but I'm not sure if my memory is correct)
Also other kumquat types are supposed to be early flowering, maybe other types are suitable?
@Marcin I have different hindsii from different sources. If you are interested I will send you some budwood.

@Till backcrossing with kumquat would also have to include selection against such strong dormancy. But in Marcin's case, he is in a more continental climate with warmer summers than our climate. That might be less of a problem for him?
But the disadvantage is indeed that large quantities of seedlings are needed to select for these traits. And that, as always, is a problem.
Backcrossing with Poncirus is disadvantageous in my eyes because Poncirus is already sufficiently winter hardy, but the backcrosses are very unlikely to have improved fruit (it is still not impossible of course) a backcross with Kumquat would first improve fruit quality. With simultaneous strong selection for winter hardiness.
In theority, backcrossing the hardy BC1 hybrids would then have to be done again with kumquat, until winter hardiness and other traits are transferred.
I think this is at least one way, but not the only one.... for time reasons alone, I would go both ways. And it is theory, there may well be other ways.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 09:15:14 PM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2022, 04:28:26 PM »
I like Meiwa. I wonder if the skin on a Meiwa/poncirus hybrid will taste nice. Or it might taste like poncirus. Wont know til ya pop it in your mouth and chew it up!

Meiwa is the most valuable kumquat in my eyes. It is very tasty, much better than the varieties from the supermarket.
But Meiwa is supposed to be strongly nucellar. Since Poncirus is often too nucellar, it would be quite a challenge to produce hybrids. But it should work with a large number of seedlings....
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 04:30:01 PM by mikkel »

Marcin

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2022, 06:32:07 PM »
Till, it would be interesting to produce a hybrid of citrumquat with yuzu. Or maybe it would be even better to produce a hybrid like: (Kumquat x Poncirus) x (Yuzu x Poncirus). Then in theory you could find a seedling with all Poncirus hardiness + additional dormancy and fruit quality traits from kumquat and yuzu.

BorisR, thanks for the info. 2.5 months is super fast ripening for a citrus. It's a pity that this variety is problematic in breeding.

Mikkel, triploids with hindsii parentage can be fertile. So triploidy is a problem in this case but only to some extent. Reale (clementine 'Monreal' x F. hindsii) is triploid and it produces zygotic seeds and marginally viable pollen. The original procimequat is triploid and is known to produce seeds. The procimequat available in Europe might be either triploid or judging on the very thick leaves it might have also higher ploidy level, it produces nucellar seeds and viable pollen.
Yes, there are also other kumquat types that are said to flower fast from seed. Like Meiwa, Fukushu, maybe also others. It would be good to select the earliest flowering specimens among them to use them in breeding.

By the way, I think backcrossing works best when you want to transfer a single gene responsible for some trait. Here there are many genes responsible for frost hardiness, dormancy and fruit quality that we want to combine in one plant. So backcrossing might not be the best option.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 06:38:46 PM by Marcin »

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2022, 05:12:37 PM »
What made you think it is diploid? I was thinking about it too, but Lenzi told me he has no clue what is the caes with these both...
I found similiar types (which might be the same, who knows? ) via a friend in a small nursery. I keep collecting hindsiis :)

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2022, 03:46:55 PM »
I was talking to Bernhard Voss. He said the one with thorns is the diploid one. the tetraploid one has no thorns. At least one of these should be the diploid one.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 03:50:13 PM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2022, 09:16:48 PM »
Finally I got both hindsii types. The thornless one and the one with thorns.
It remains to find out which is the diploid type.

BorisR

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2022, 02:19:09 AM »
What made you think it is diploid?
Oh, sorry! I didn't see what you were asking me. Well, I certainly don't know that any of them are diploid, but I assume that the one that is "double" is diploid, and the one that is "wild" is tetraploid. The diploid seems to have slightly larger fruits. I don't know about the thorns. I read somewhere that even in the wild there is a diploid form, but the Swingle got a tetraploid form when describing the species. I wanted to order both from Lenzi this spring, but due to the events taking place in our country, they canceled delivery this year.

Walt

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2022, 10:21:16 AM »
The Riverside citrus collection has 2 accessions of hindsii.  Each came to them labled as tetrapliud.  Chromosomr counts of both showed they are diploid.

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2022, 12:07:45 PM »
I will pollinate both and see what comes out.... but it might take a while before the first fruits appear.

vnomonee

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2022, 03:14:17 PM »
Just did Hindsii x poncirus+ (dry pollen)





I have a little bonsai/ year old hindsii cutting noticed several flowers today.

My eyes hurt. Biggest issue I had was the dry pollen would not adhere to the paint brush

mikkel

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Re: Kumquat x Poncirus
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2022, 04:33:05 PM »
interesting! keep us updated.

 

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