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I will share an interesting soil science tidbit that may be helpful to folks here. Most soil organic carbon, the recalcitrant(long lasting) portion, does not come from plant necromass, but from microbial necromass, something to think about when you're applying mulch year after year and your soc isn't going up. I've seen areas in my field that went from white sand to dark crumbly humas rich sand just allowing the weeds to grow and not mowing.
I found soil ph maps, who knows how accurate these are.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/qup4nu/soil_ph_of_conterminous_usa/
There’s lots of people here in CR as well that do a terrible job.
But , sure you want to be selling a product that sells itself because of the quality not due to some hype.
What would they say if your wife took the vanilla back and said it’s not good enough for her soap?
Peter
I have a strong doubt that, offered plenifolia and pompona, the customer will select pompona. But I am considering doing about 10 plants of pompona just to see if there really is a niche market for this vanilla.
Looking online what I find is plenifolia from lots of different places and Tahiatian. Pompona from Peru. But since pompona occurs from Mexico to South America it’s surprising that nobody else seems to grow it.
Peter
Not a big problem. If you’re actively managing the land snakes don’t like it. Even if they are there they tend to run. We occasionally see venomous snakes in our cacao groves and more frequently in guaraná (bushy). Chickens, turkeys and Guinea pea fowl help but they’ll trash any veggies you have
Hi, I don’t really know anything about Tahaitensis. I’ve never heard of anyone growing it here. It has a good reputation internationally. But I’m wondering if it’s best for you as it is grown in the lowlands. Still, I don’t see anything wrong with trying it. Everything is a bit of an experiment and you see what works.
Suerte!
I do have a lot of expat clients but they aren’t all US people there’s lots of Europeans and other Latins. The other half are Costa Ricans. Costa Rica has a culture of farmers markets held in most towns large or small. There is some government support for these markets.
Vanilla is a high end product that probably wouldn’t sell well if there weren’t expats or rich ticos but there is still lots to sell the people that aren’t likely to buy vanilla. Ticos are serious buyers of fresh fruit, chocolate, dried fruit, plants, lots of stuff.
Peter
hi everyone! i will be going to costa rica sometime this summer and I could use some advice. my plan at the moment is to stay a couple of nights in puerto viejo and a couple in san ramon(or a similar area) to try to go to the Plinia Costaricensis. does anyone have any recommendations for lodging? i would prefer somewhere that maybe has fruit trees on the property, our budget is around 20ish $ a night. i am also looking for farms and collections to visit to try and taste as many fruits as possible. we are also looking for a guide to go on hikes in the jungle to look for fruitsI was going to go to Costa Rica and i started researching native fruits we are going to Puerto Rico instead now if you have the time i think its fun too look at INaturalist and find native Annona, Passiflora or other native fruits then memorize what they look like and you can try native fruit! i recommend looking for cecropia they are easy to identify. if you don't have the time you can still look out for papaya and Passiflora while your there you probably know what they look like already. once you find stuff on Inatrulist you can look at google maps and find the exact spot.
thanks!
It's unlikely that they're harvesting V. palmarum in that case. One of the main Vanilla botanists in Peru, stated that although it's in the Xanata section of the Xanata subgenus, palmarum (as well as bicolor) does not produce fragrant pods.
It does produce fragrant pods actually. I’ve both made extract and fermented it from pods off licuri palms in the semi arid dry forest. The research on wild species is next to none so I imagine most of what we see is speculative. The Brazilian government is working on it. V. Bahiana was reclassified as a variety of phaentha. https://www.embrapa.br/en/web/portal/recursos-geneticos-e-biotecnologia/busca-de-noticias/-/noticia/72142965/brasil-ganha-primeiro-banco-de-germoplasma-de-baunilhas?p_auth=3YFfPnhW
Interesting conversation.
So my buyers, whether at the farmers market or not are basically the same kind of client. Individuals and small restaurant owners who are looking for something of good quality. My model avoids the wholesale buyer. I’d much rather have 50 clients than one or two.
What I can’t sell at the farmers market I sell here at the farm or take it out to sell here and there. Maybe on the street across from a supermarket, stopping anywhere that I can sell $20 of fruit. What I’m talking about is mostly fruit sales. I can harvest 1500kg of mangosteen per harvest and that’s when I need to hustle. Durian is a big deal for us. The selling needs to be well organized but it’s all done here locally.
We have people who come from other countries as well as our capitol to buy durian mainly.
I also sell black pepper, vanilla and chocolate bars. Normally I don’t go out with that stuff except to the farmers market. I sell about $200 of chocolate bars at the market and smaller quantities of pepper, dried fruit, vanilla and stuff.
Buyers of vanilla are a juice bar and a guy that makes a vanilla kombucha and people making cakes and stuff for sale or just for the family.
Peter
I have a strong doubt that, offered plenifolia and pompona, the customer will select pompona. But I am considering doing about 10 plants of pompona just to see if there really is a niche market for this vanilla.
Looking online what I find is plenifolia from lots of different places and Tahiatian. Pompona from Peru. But since pompona occurs from Mexico to South America it’s surprising that nobody else seems to grow it.
Peter
When you say ‘big time buyers’ I’m wondering who they are and how many tons of vanilla they’re buying. I have Pompona and I would plant it if I thought that it has a market. Is it actually that good? You think I should start producing it commercially? I don’t need a big buyer. If I have something really good I would have plenty of buyers at our farmers market.
Peter
There’s definitely a market for wild vanilla. Accessing it is another matter. In Brazil I’ve heard about people who are preserving the cerrado forest through a vanilla project using palmerum harvesting from the woods. Not sure where they sell to but it’s usually foodies, fancy restaurants, spice aficionados etc. but accessing the market is always the principal question. Either the supply chain is there, or you have enough to fill containers.
BTW, what is the avg. annual rainfall at your farm? Elevation? Does planifolia yield well under those conditions? Just learned from an orchid grower today that pompona is more shade-tolerant than planifolia.
Average rainfall is variable from very low of 85” to a high of more than 200”. It probably averages at about 120”. We are just above sea level.
It took us about 8 years to become a profitable farm. I have a construction background and I did some contracting, electric, pump installations, stuff like that.
You really need to have a good idea of the market to be successful. Not everything will work. Between the challenges of production and the issues of selling a lot can go wrong. What has worked the best for me really are the fruit trees like mangosteen and durian. Many things have come together but I’ve been at this since 1987. The last twelve years or so we’ve been making chocolate bars and this has worked out for us.
But vanilla has potential for us since we have a farmers market. Juice and kombucha producers buy vanilla as well in small quantities. I’m able to get $4 a bean. I’m over diversified but that’s more fun. I’m 74 and this is all my passion. I’ll never retire! Also, huge plus, my son is really into all this stuff so the project is multigenerational.
Another flower bud from Flower 1's cutting opened a day later, even though it was a day after the cutting was taken.
Flower 3 and 4 - Harvested from one vine growing in very close proximity to the vines of flowers 1 and 2. For all I know these could all be the same plant, because they travel along the forest floor until they find a suitable tree. The part along the ground could have broken off and decomposed long ago.
Foliage of the vine of flowers 3/4
A lot of interesting stuff here and parallels. I’ve read about fermenting vanilla and tried with some wild v. palmarum without much success. Seems like a nightmare. In Brazil we have a severe labor shortage so it’s off the table. One thing I’ve learned and tried is basically gathering wild vanilla that splits or is sub optimal, lazily semi fermenting it and drying it and then creating extract in alcohol. It worked well for personal use!
Here I’m seeing people planting on cacao trees supposedly without messing with the cacao.
Pamplona has a supply chain and high price, but hand pollination increases productivity drastically and that with fermentation seems super laborious. Most of the other species have never been tested even for culinary appeal. Embrapa (Brazilian usda) is doing some preliminary tests. We’ve found vanilla palmarum, phaentha, and cribbiana here and lots others unidentified.
In Costa Rica you find enough workers I take it and ones who don’t trash the plants? Id love to ferment vanilla if I could find a way to make it work.
What you have in the fotos doesn’t look that much like pompona.
I’m wondering if the vanilla that occurs there, pompona or not, has been cultivated traditionally or is it an activity that is more recent.
Peter
We have loads of rangpur lime and can’t sell it! No one seems interested except every person in the cities struggling to find it.
Agroventuresperu come visit anytime. We have space. I’d love to visit as well but we’re prisoners on the farm with animals and the year round harvests.
Glytcidia sepium is what I’m speaking of. It’s called madre cacao in southern Mexico. I see it all over the world as it’s so useful. Native to southern Mexico and Central America.
We have at least 5 different erythrina here. They have nice flowers and one type is used widely for shading coffee in CR. A different one is used for posts.
You never said who buys the pampona and for what? And how much do they pay!
Peter
