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Messages - Peep

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: January 29, 2023, 10:28:42 AM »
So on the 12th of January my order from Adavo arrived.

The C4475 seedlings had been taken out of their pots and grouped together in plastic bags. From some of the soil that was still holding shape I could see that they likely used the same as what I put them back into (7x7x18 I think).

I ordered 10, but I got a few extra it seems, that's nice. Looking neat after putting them all in pots. The size is not too bad for grafting:

I ordered scions from Ichang Lemon CRC1215, Ichangquat, Eremorange and Eisenhut Citradia 139. Placed them in a shady spot outdoors in a bucket with some water. I grafted part of them the day they arrived and part of them the day after:

Some of the scions, and the C4475 seedlings as well, seemed to be infested with bugs. Not sure if they are aphids or mites, or something else? I rinsed everything under running water and hope it doesn't spread. Might spray the C4475 with some soapy water and neem oil in a few days in case any survived.

Another downside was that some of the scions were quite thin. Especially the Eremorange seems a bit too thin and immature. I think I'm good at grafting, but this is seriously annoying to work with, keep in mind my fingers are already quite slender:

Anyway, I still managed to get some reasonable grafts with it, so fingers crossed

Another hurdle is that my rootstock was still dormant. I didn't put them indoors beforehand, because I didn't know what size of scions I would receive and couldn't pick out the right size of rootstock. I also didn't want to wake up all my rootstock and then have to put most of them outside again.

So I put a heating pad inside a cardboard box and put the newly grafted plants in there. Hoping that the heating pad would quickly wake the rootstock up. For the first week I left them in a cold room, between 12 and 15C. So the rootstock would be warm, but the scions cool. After that week I placed them in a room of maybe 18C. A few centimeters deep the soil is 23C. Haven't measured deeper down (warmer).

Usually I grafted end of March or later and with freshly cut scions, so I'm curious how this will end up.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 21, 2023, 03:49:08 PM »
Yes, the seeds came from Ilya, but one thing to consider is that Ilya's tree is growing in a very protected spot on the inner corner of two high walls of his house. 

Another factor might be the climate. I suspect there may be something a little bit different about Europe (specifically France's) climate compared to the U.S. PNW. Although the PNW region and France are very similar, zone 8a in Europe may translate to more stable temperatures with fewer ups and downs than in the U.S. I am not sure. It seems many have had more success with varieties in zone 8a Europe than I have had with those varieties here.
Ilya also lives not too far from Paris, which might further be helping, preventing things from getting too cold.

It went down to almost 12 degrees F, maybe only 14 degrees F (let's say -11 degrees C ),  buried in a foot of snow.

Yeah climate might be quite different, a foot of snow also doesn't even happen here. I'm on the edge between zone 8A and 8B as well, and even though Ilya's might be in a good protected spot, temperatures don't go as low where I am when compared to his location.

Keep in mind though that my Ichangquat should be exactly the same as Ilya's, as far as I know, he supplied scions to Adavo and now I got scions from Adavo. So with seedlings it's more of a gamble. Would be interesting to know if it would have made a difference if yours was from a scion from 672 instead of a seed, but we'll never know. At least it seems there is a fair bit of difference in hardiness between Ichangquat seedlings, because other (F1?) Ichangquats have been said to not be as hardy I think.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 20, 2023, 07:07:56 PM »
Why not cross a 0F/-18C Marumi kumquat with a 10F Harvey lemon.

Marumi seems like it could be interesting, although it seems there is no good consensus on the hardiness of it. Here in Europe, and mainly in France, the Nameiwa has more fame for being a good hardy kumquat. I've not heard much of Marumi so I didn't think it was something interesting. For example, this French nursery lists Nameiwa at -15 and Marumi at -12, same as Nagami, Meiwa and Fukushu. Of course this doesn't mean that it's correct, but this information seems to be the trend in EU or in France.

I asked Eyeckr about it because he has had both. He says Nameiwa and Marumi are close, possibly Marumi a little bit hardier if he had to guess. I'll give Marumi a chance maybe, if someone can help me with a scion [EU], send me a message!

I think 10F for Harvey Lemon might be a bit optimistic (like 0F for Marumi as well), and I'm not sure if this cultivar exists in Europe. I myself don't think Harvey Lemon would necessarily give better chances at a good result than Ichang Lemon.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 20, 2023, 08:50:11 AM »
I have tried growing small plants of Ichanguat grown from seed, and an Ichang lemon in a container outside, in the U.S. PNW zone 8a. I have found these plants can not really grow well here, not without some degree of protection. They will seem to barely survive, and then a colder winter than normal will come along one year and wipe the plants out.

Something strange I have noticed, one year the plants seemed to make it through the winter great, the next year the plants were almost completely destroyed, but it was not the same year. One plant might due well in one year but not another, and then the next year it was the reverse.

Two of the Ichangquat seedlings are dead now, one had a tiny bit of green only an inch above the base but looked close to death. The Ichang lemon looked like it was almost completely killed, but then the next year managed to recover and then survive through the winter outside okay, while other varieties that had done better than Ichang lemon in previous years died. If Ichang lemon has any chance of long term success in this climate, it would only be in a very protected spot, like in the corner of a house with walls surrounding it on two sides.

The Yuzu did not do well last year either. One finally died after a few years of slow decline. That one was planted in a semi-protected spot and was on grafted rootstock.

The Ichangquat I have should be the same one as Ilya's, which for him has survived unprotected in zone 8a for 15 years or more (I don't know exactly when he got it). Which included temperatures down to -16C I believe (3.2F).

It seems the Ichangquat cultivar 6-7-2 is the one that is most cold hardy, while others aren't as much. Although the one we have in Europe is an F2 from 672, so I'm not sure how the US and EU versions of 672 would compare.

For Ichang Lemon I got the CRC1215 cultivar, which from reading on forums should be a good one. I have 30 cultivars of "hardy" citrus now, but I'm sure some will not make it. It will be interesting.

With Yuzu there is also a fair bit of difference in hardiness between yuzu cultivars.

What kind of temperatures did you have when your plants got wiped out?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 15, 2023, 03:20:35 PM »
Isn`t it a Nagami x Meiwa hybrid?

It should be. According to some people, like eyeckr (Virginia Fruit Grower) the Nameiwa is the same as the "ten-degree kumquat".

Which is described here

Ten-Degree Kumquat (Fortunella margarita hybrid) is an openpollinated form from Dr. John Brown of Texas. It makes an exceptionally handsome ornamental tree, with deep green leaves. The leaves are typical kumquat shape, small and pointed, but the ten-degree kumquat has leaves that have a distinctive wavy shape. Fruit are essentially seedless and small kumquat size, about 1 inch long and oblong, with a spicy taste with little juice. The tree is so named because the original survived 7F and more than 60 hours below freezing in Texas. When grafted on trifoliate orange rootstock it eventually grows to about 12 feet tall, making a large globose shrub or small tree.
Flavor: Semi-sweet kumquat, no off-flavors, good quality.
Uses: Dessert, preserves.

I'm not 100% confident that these are always exactly the same cultivar. I don't really see the wavy shape on my plant, unless I don't understand what they try to describe with it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 14, 2023, 07:46:18 PM »
Where does one get a nameiwa.

Mine is from Vessieres in France. The cultivar is also available in the US, I think it was created in Texas (not sure though). 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 14, 2023, 05:02:36 PM »
I see potential in Meiwa Kumquat. It is sweet and maybe hybrids are more likely to be sweet then too... but I am only guessing. How is Nameiwa?

I agree that it would be goot to have some sweetness. From what I read the Nameiwa is good for eating as they are, on equal level with Meiwa. Although this does not have to mean that it is exactly as sweet. At least the Nameiwa is supposedly more hardy than either Nagami or Meiwa, so that is a plus. 

Edit: Translated from Vessieres about Nameiwa:

"The fruit is a small, oval to round, extremely sweet kumquat. The skin is crisp and soft. The pulp is juicy and sweet too. Powerful aromas of almost mandarin kumquat. Few seeds."

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 14, 2023, 11:48:57 AM »
Haha, yes the naming might get confusing. Maybe 'Shangyuanquat' would be better? :p

I received the CRC 1215 cultivar of Ichang Lemon this week and grafted it, and I have recently received the Nameiwa kumquat as a plant (although I will cut scions from it), so when I have the opportunity it is something I would like to cross. Should I do this two ways, one with Ichang Lemon as pollinator and one with Kumquat als pollinator?

Ichangquat is also already high on my list to make many different crosses with. And also Ichang 'IVIA' x Nameiwa. Which would be an Ichangquat, but maybe little bit different.

I don't have lemonquat and don't plan on getting it so that's for someone else to do :p

Cold Hardy Citrus / Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 14, 2023, 07:39:08 AM »

Yesterday I was grafting Ichangquat and Ichang Lemon, then I was thinking: There is Ichangquat and there is Lemonquat (sunquat), so what about an Ichang-Lemon-quat?

Ichangquat is very hardy, but is a bit behind in fruit quality. Lemonquat has higher fruit quality, but lacks hardiness. So Ichanglemonquat could be interesting?

Anyone ever heard of it existing? Or if it doesn't, is there a reason nobody has made it yet? Is it difficult?

Best regards,

Looking around the Internet I think the proper spelling is  Shikuwasa

There are multiple spelling versions used; Shekwasha / Shikwasa / Shikuwasha / Shikuwasa / Shiikuwasha / Shiquasa / Shequasa

All of these can be seen used. It's hard to say which ones are correct or which could be a incorrect translation or wrong combination of spelling :p

Here in Europe the most common to me is Shekwasha

3) but some experience: I am not having much luck grafting in ambient temp of around 68f / 20c. I bet the soil is much cooler than this especially after watering. My grafts turn brown or develop mold. Might need more heat than that, to get your rootstocks actively growing you can place a heat mat under the poncirus to make sure it wakes up.

Yes, even in spring and early summer I placed the grafts inside under a sun roof (but not in direct sunlight at first) where it is nice and warm. I read that warmer temperatures makes the graft heal better/faster.

So I think the warmest spot (and I can use heating pad) seems a good idea. Only thing I'm a bit worried about is if they start growing branches, but will have a lack of sunlight in these winter days. Although by the time that they could start growing it will already be past halfway in February.

I was more wondering if placing them in a cooler room, like 15C, might delay the healing, but not with negative effect. Like a good way to store it for a few weeks, before putting it in a warmer spot. Then it will line up better with the spring.

Not available anymore

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: January 08, 2023, 02:09:19 PM »
Some updates:

I germinated 80 poncirus seeds. Placing them in wet vermiculite and on a heating pad with temperature sensor set to 26C worked very well.

(I put a lid on it.)

For the optimum germination temperature of different cultivars you can find interesting information in this scientific paper: and this next one also has some interesting data regarding germination times:

I placed them in the vermiculate on the 2nd of December, this is what they look like today:

I always keep them covered with a clear box so the air moisture stays high.

I also made a grow light setup for the seedlings:

It's a bit difficult though to regulate a good air mosture level. If it's too moist then the LED lights get wet from condensation after turning them off. I ruined €100 worth of LED's before figuring that out.

Other good news (at least to me) is that I managed to get a Nameiwa kumquat from Vessieres:

It's on C35 rootstock, but I will graft a piece onto poncirus and also use it to send some scions to other people.

On Monday another order from Adavo will ship to me. This time with scions, ten C4475 rootstocks, and another Citrangeremo. Shipping cost from Adavo is always the, even for scions it's the same as up to 16 plants.

The scions will be: Ichangquat, Ichang Lemon CRC 1215, Eremorange and Citradia "Eisenhut 139

I have poncirus rootstock and use this the most, but I thought it could be nice to put a few of my most hardy varieties also on C4475 for the increased growth speed.

I'm not sure how I can best graft the scions and where to place the grafted plants, because it is winter at the moment. I asked the question here, advice is always appreciated:

I have no experience with this at all, but temperature numbers don't say everything. How long was it low 20's, what was the moisture level of the air, was it raining, no wind or a lot of wind, how were the day temperatures. I think I've read that fruit can go down to -5C, which is 23 f. Some cold resistant varieties can even go lower.

And I'm not expert on oranges, but I feel like you should be able to see if something has a navel or not.


Hello everyone,

At the end of next week I will receive some scions. Up to now I've only grafted in spring with freshly cut scions, so this is different now. I think of a few options:

1. Store the scionwood until spring at 9C in a fridge (I'm afraid they will lose their viability).

2. Graft and place the plants in a unheated room around 14C, with ambient light but no direct sunlight.

3. Graft and place them in a room around 20C, can be positioned either for ambient light or for direct sunlight.

4. Or maybe other suggestions?

Any advice for what is best?
The poncirus rootstock is currently placed outdoors. If it is recommend to put the grafts in a 20C room then I can already bring the rootstock inside as preparation.

I will receive three scions for each variety so it is also possible to try two things. This is what I'm expecting:

3 x Ichangquat
3 x Ichang Lemon CRC 1215
3 x Eremorange
3 x Citradia "Eisenhut 139"

Best regards,

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:48:48 PM »
I read recently that Nansho Dai Dai is closely related to Sanbokan. Maybe there is a group of related types ?
I have not previously heard of other Taiwanica types.
Possibly the work of Professor Tanaka might be helpful, as he gave names to many types, that helped to understand and differentiate them.

Citrus miaray is also a very similar type to taiwanica, from the Phillipines.

Some of the narrow leaf willow leaf aurantium Sour Orange varieties also resemble taiwanica.

Anybody remember the lineage of taiwanica, fairly sure it is a Sour Orange hybrid.

Taiwanica, at least the Nansho Daidai, is about 60% pomello and 40% mandarin:

I read that Sanbokan is a 'sour orange hybrid', with Taiwanica being 'sour orange' it could maybe be somewhat related.

"Miaray is closely related to Japanese summer orange (Citrus natsudaidai), Nansho-daidai (Citrus taiwanica) and Sanbokan (Citrus sulcata)"

"Sanbokan -> It was early classified as a sour orange hybrid and recent study showed that the parentage of sambokan is a cross of Kaikoukan (C. truncata Hort. ex Tanaka) and kishu mandarin: ♀C. truncata ♂C. kinokuni."

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:18:57 PM »
In my experience less light = bigger leaves. This happens to me indoors under artificial lighthing, though I imagine the same could happen if they were greenhouse grown with less intense sunlight or if you kept them in the shade.

Ah, for me the bigger leaves grew in the height of summer in a sunny spot haha
The smaller leaves were there when I received it from Lenzi.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:02:51 PM »
Bigger leaves are probably response to lighting conditions

Would bigger leaves be the result of more sun then? Or the opposite?

Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate) has narrow leaves like your plant from Lenzi. Maybe they are selling hybrids or off-types?

I couldn't say for sure, but like I wrote above, there are actually many cultivars of c. taiwanica, so they could be true taiwanica, just not the Nansho Daidai cultivar.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:00:13 PM »
I wasn't aware that there were different cultivars of C. taiwanica. To me Nansho daidai is just the vernacular name of C. taiwanica.
Anyway, here's C. taiwanica in Eisenhut nursery (their Nr. 171):

Yes, in the very beginning I also thought Nansho Daidai and Citrus Taiwanica was always the same thing, but there are many Taiwanica cultivars. But most of them seem pretty rare or not really cultivated, and Nansho Daidai seems the only one that has a commonly known name.

From the pictures it looks like Eisenhut has the 'actual' Nansho Daidai cultivar. I think it's likely the same as the one that pagnr talks about as 'instantly recognisable'.

Do you know if Eisenhut sells and ships scions? I'm in Belgium.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 04:25:52 PM »
In Australia we have the narrow leaf type of taiwanica, that you were expecting.
It is a very nice looking plant with its narrow foliage and large fruit. The fruit is quite sour.
I have seen it in 3 Citrus arboretums and it is instantly recognisable.

Cool to see it in arboretums. It's very sour indeed, apparently it's considered as not very good fruit, but I also read that with sugar it does make good lemonade style drinks. (And also I though it was maybe interesting to use it for making hybrids.)

I grew seedlings of it and they are highly true to type, with a just a few variants.

It is possible that the Australian plants came from the same USDA source and it is not the right one.
It wouldn't be the first time the plant in the USDA collection is not exactly right.

On the other hand, the plants I see on the European Citrus nursery sites often don't exactly match what I was expecting to see from that variety.

I think if you can find more information out of Taiwan or Japan it would be a good start.

I'm always happy to know the exact name of a cultivar I have, but I guess I just need to find a real Nansho Daidai (narrow leaves) and then taste them all. I already have over 50 citrus plants and I'd acutally like to get that number down, but if I can't find information to compare cultivars, then I can't help but to get them and eliminate the least interesting ones myself  ::)

I am sure that the narrow leaf Nansho Daidai is present in Europe, but not many nurseries would have it. I'll try to find someone for scions.

The plants in the pictures on your post from Adavo and Lenzi look more like Sour Orange, Citrus aurantium.
Nansho Daidai / Taiwanica is also called 'Sour Orange'. I usually say Bitter Orange for aurantium, but both are correct. I also have a Furrowed Bitter Orange (Citrus aurantium canaliculata), but those leaves look different from both Lenzi's and Adavo's Taiwanica.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 10:44:13 AM »
I could use some help regarding Taiwanica cultivars.

I bought the Taiwanica from Adavo, expecting the Nansho Daidai, which is known for it's narrow leaves, and this matches their picture and description (although they use pictures from other people / internet)

The leaves on the plant I received are quite round, with wide petioles (see my picture below). So I emailed about it and I got an answer:

Translated from Czech:

You're right. The Nansh-daidai variety has narrow leaves:

We do not offer this variety. We offer only the original species. He doesn't have narrow leaves:

So it seems their own description on the website is not correct for the cultivar that they sell.

Does anyone know the name of this 'original species' cultivar?

On the web pages he gives I don't really find a name. Translated from the Taiwanese page it says "The difference from the original mother is that the petiole wing of this species is linear and the fruit is 7-9cm." So the plant from Adavo would be the 'original mother' mentioned here.

I also have the Taiwanica from Lenzi, of which I also don't know a cultivar name. But it seems different from the one that I have from Adavo. And Lenzi's Taiwanica leaves also don't seem narrow enough to be the Nansho Daidai.

Plant from Adavo:

Plant from Lenzi:

Newer leaves seem to get larger:

Best regards,

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Can you order cold hardy citrus
« on: December 06, 2022, 02:37:44 PM »
There is for example a nursery in France that has citrus fruit baskets now, but it is tied to what is ripe at this time. Not everything in it is cold hardy either. I've seen them sold containing Keraji, Ichang Lemon, and of course Yuzu and Satsuma. Throughout the year they sell citrus to restaurants. The window of ripe fruit is quite small, they are not processed and treated for storage in the way they do in commercial fruit nurseries.

There is not much commercial fruit cultivation of the hardy varieties, and if there is, then they will likely not have a wide range of varieties. Only something like satsuma and Yuzu I expect.

Best you can do is contact/visit nurseries that sell hardy citrus plants and ask what is ripe on the trees at that time. Or ask in citrus facebook groups or forums.

That's cool to see! Also the Kishu. I've been to our Chinatown part here in Antwerp, but never found anything besides normal lemons and limes. Maybe I should check again now at this time of the year.

They sell Yuzu juice here at 100 /L (in small bottles) and the dried zest at 1000 /Kg if I remember correctly. I also found some yuzu candy, Yuzu beer, and maybe something else but I might not remember. The candy was good, the beer not so much.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Japanese citrus growers?
« on: November 24, 2022, 07:59:07 AM »
Citrus canker on fruit is probably more of a problem than Tristeza via fruit.
Seed are not likely to transmit either, if hygiene controls used to extract seed from fruit from Canker areas.
Tristeza is mechanically ( graft ) or insect transmitted.

Yes, he never mentioned the word fruit so I was thinking he is talking about these varieties as plants, but I see that it makes more sense if he is talking about the fruit. I was probably a bit too tired. Tachibana fruit itself is also apparently not all that great tasting (of course everyone likes different things), but it can give good results for breeding.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Japanese citrus growers?
« on: November 23, 2022, 08:53:45 PM »
I don't know how it works between Canada and Japan, but Japan has always been illegal to import from to Europe, and apparently rightly so with how common Tristeza seems to be in Japan.

Anyway, for the Tachibana you can ask this nursery in Italy if they ship to Canada:

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