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Messages - caladri

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1
Is this a normal occurrence? I think I read something about grafting to Shiikuwasha inducing flowering sooner but I can't quite remember.

I think so. They use shekwasha as a rootstock in Japan to induce earlier flowering.

You're thinking of this paper: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.scienta.2008.03.003

The comment that it is used in Japan as a rootstock in induce precocity is slightly misleading; it's not that common, and is also used in lots of places for research use. Also, it was trialed as a rootstock in North Florida ages ago for other reasons.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2024, 11:56:55 PM »
How old was the keraji seedling when killed?

3
I find the peels a bit bitter in most usage, but dried and powdered they're a nice addition to lots of kinds of spice blends. I'm surprised at the low seediness, and I wonder if that's a varietal difference or an environmental one. So delighted to hear there's suppliers popping up in the US!

4
Lyn is unfortunately very difficult to deal with, in my experience. Phone may be best, but set your hopes good and low.

5
For my money, hyuganatsu is the closest, but the flavedo isn't great (the albedo is.) There are other more obscure citrus with reportedly sweeter pith, but I haven't tried them, and I like the flesh of hyuganatsu so much that it's hard to imagine something topping it. None of the Zanthoxylum-like numbing-bitter of kumquats and their derivitives, either.

6
As someone also in the PNW, I'd note that some commercially available sudachi sold in our region seem to be rooted cuttings, which is interesting — and mine has survived winters that knocked out whatever citrange Four Winds was using some year.

I'm skeptical of flying dragon in the PNW, given what I understand as slower overall growth and deeper dormancy. It seems worthwhile to me to have a bit of die-back now and then in exchange for being able to make the most of the short growing season. That's a matter of speculative personal opinion, though! But I spoke to one nursery owner who was outraged and couldn't believe that his trees grafted onto flying dragon (he ordered them that way) had hardly grown in one season. He was sure that wasn't how it was supposed to be, I'm confident because his previous orders has been grafted onto some kind of citrange.

It's a bit like people imagining that lemons are better to grow in the PNW because they're sour and therefore need less ripening and must also be more cold tolerant. Everyone on this forum, of course, knows better.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: February 20, 2024, 03:36:18 PM »
What method will you use to discriminate between zygotic and nucellar seedlings?

X639 should not be hardy enough to survive in Pennsylvania, I would think, and so selection would kill the nucellar seedlings?

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: February 20, 2024, 03:15:46 PM »
This is the way! Good luck!!

9
A little bit surprising to see a bifoliate seedling in this cross.

Do you think that is necessarily more than mere juvenility? I am personally never sure how to judge whether it's young seedlings being weird, or a meaningful difference in morphology, when I see such unexpected leaves, but you have a good deal more experience with such things!

10
My yuzus are very green since they are harvested in July here, but from what I can find, green is a smell (close to the peel) that reminds me more of the Common mandarin (in the US they call it Willow left).  but when it is ripe I will be able to analyze it in more detail, I don't know if you tried that variety to see if you found something similar or it is just an appreciation due to lack of tools to compare.
I have seen once and bought yuzu fruits at a luxury supermarket near where I live. Very surprised to see that. But they most have been picked unripe, because the fruits were much more on the green color side than yellow. I know it certainly was yuzu, but the fruits were very different from the ripe yuzu fruits I have picked off the tree. The skin of the green fruits was much harder and not edible. Whereas the skin of the very ripe yellow-orange fruits was soft tender, similar to citron (Citrus medica), and the skin is somewhat edible.

I think the best time to pick yuzu is when the fruits are yellow and beginning to become orange, but have not become too orange yellow in color. Before then they have not developed a strong aroma and are very unripe and dry, but after that they start losing sourness and becoming just a little bit insipid, maybe also lose just a tiny bit of aroma.

I realize in different climates, more tropical climates, citrus fruits often remain green and do not turn orange. I do not know how that affects yuzu fruit. But I am saying in other climates, if yuzu is green it is unripe and will not be so good. It will not give you a good idea of what yuzu fruit is supposed to be like.

The peel of yuzu is very important and is where most of the flavor is. It is nothing like an edible kumquat, but if you process the yuzu it has many culinary uses. Think of it like a lemon. 

Yuzu grown in California are very different to yuzu grown in various parts of Japan even before one gets into the reality of multiple varieties of yuzu in commercial production. Green yuzu have distinct uses in Japan. I am a little surprised at the claim that yuzu are terribly rare to find fruit of in western Washington. Buy a box from Pearson Ranch some time. Uwajimaya used to have them. Pretty sure the Yard Birds supermarket in Centralia/Chehalis used to have them (they used to buy in every kind of citrus they could, including mandarinquats).

If you find yourself in BC at the right time of year, I can point you to multiple sources of Japan-grown yuzu you can try.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poorman Orange/New Zealand Grapefruit
« on: February 08, 2024, 05:55:16 PM »
It might be interesting to try to cross them with something with exceptional fruit holding, maybe daidai? Fruit holding is definitely a trait I've been thinking is critically important in my low heat unit region.

12
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Leaf cuttings citrus propagation
« on: January 18, 2024, 01:04:36 PM »
There was a Mongolian horticulturalist several years ago who was doing leaf rooting and propagation specifically of rooted lemon leaves in large quantities, but I haven't seen an update from them in quite some time, and I don't know whether they were getting plants from the rooted leaves, or just using them to generate more material for use in tissue culture (which I seem to recall they were also doing.)

13
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Leaf cuttings citrus propagation
« on: January 14, 2024, 03:27:13 PM »
According to Dr. Malcolm Manners of the University of Southern Florida and Chair of the Citrus department, it is impossible to create a citrus tree from a leaf.

From rooting, anyway. Seems like it ought to be possible with tissue culture?

14
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB Kumquat seeds.
« on: December 31, 2023, 08:29:55 PM »
If they grow any of the extra large, juicy, and seedless meiwa kumquats I've gotten from some Chinese growers, you're in a for a treat! But even a relatively mediocre meiwa kumquat is super nice. Sounds like a fantastic trip :)

15
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Is this a Wekiwa or did CCPP screw me over?
« on: December 30, 2023, 01:04:06 PM »
That's good to know Kaz.  I'll just topwork it to something else.  Can't believe CCPP sent me some random junk or sucker wood lol.

If you seriously think CCPP sent you the wrong budwood, tell them. That's a serious quality control issue and while it might be a minor inconvenience or annoyance for you, it could be a real problem for some grower who's getting budwood for increase trees to support propagation. I'm a little hesitant to believe it would have been their error, but you should really take it up with them (and report back!)

16
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB: Allspice tangelo fruit.
« on: December 23, 2023, 03:44:46 AM »
Soooo… tell me about why this giant tree in my yard has you all excited

It's weirdly scarce in most of the US, and is not currently available from CCPP. If you'd like to sell me some fruit, send me a DM. A medium size USPS flat rate box would be fantastic :)

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Dobashi Beni Satsuma - Anyone Growing This?
« on: December 20, 2023, 12:22:22 AM »
What's your pollination environment like, w.r.t. seedy vs. not?

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: December 12, 2023, 06:39:52 AM »
The USDA's official release of US852 says that about half of the offspring of US852 are nucellar. See https://citrusrootstocks.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/US-852.pdf

19
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Uga Changsha fruit already in stores...
« on: December 08, 2023, 10:38:14 AM »
Is this a seedless variant? Here in EU we only have one Changsha cultivar, as far as I know, and it is seedy.

Yes. "UGA Changsha" is being used here for an improved changsha developed at the University of Georgia (UGA) in the US. The trade name for the variety is "Sweet Frost".

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: December 06, 2023, 01:37:48 AM »
I have a wall of 8 IBCs full (well, mostly full) of water in my greenhouse for similar purposes. Unfortunately, it's of diminished effect in our climate because there isn't that much insolation to heat 'em up. They do make great benches when stacked one high, but unfortunately the horizontal space usage is too inefficient for me compared to shelves, for the moment, so all but one pair are stacked two high. Over the summer, with a lot more (too much!) sun, their overnight output was a pretty steady 1.75kW on average (just about 6kBTU/h), if I did my math right. I envy Millet's setup!

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Accelerate fruiting process on hybrid seedlings
« on: November 29, 2023, 12:36:24 PM »
Setting aside the question of what you choose to hybridize with and management of growing conditions, grafting onto some rootstocks, such as shekwasha (Citrus depressa) can accelerate flowering, per https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423808000770.

And yes, per your initial question, a mature rootstock is likely to be able to push more growth than the seedling's roots, and you may also have a seedling which would make a desirable scion, but which has poor-quality roots for whatever reason (often what people mean about things growing poorly on their own roots.)

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Looking for commercial citrus growers
« on: November 22, 2023, 01:19:52 AM »
Purchase a copy of the UC ANR Citrus Production Manual if you don't have it already: https://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/Details.aspx?itemNo=3539

Many countries produce similar documents, some in English, of varying quality, but this one is a fantastic starting point.

23
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquats seedlings dieing
« on: November 18, 2023, 10:00:32 PM »
Do you have pictures of any of them in the dying process? There may be something visually significant for diagnosis, but I'm not quite sure. I've had little trouble with most citrus seedlings, at all times of year and in all kinds of media. Sometimes there do seem to be weaker seeds or bad conditions transiently, but it's difficult to just make a guess out of nowhere. Fungal issues, excess cold, too much light, and drying out completely are the issues I've had besides things which seemed to just be not viable in the first place.

(Now, my experiences with Citropsis and with Aegle marmelos run quite the other direction!)

24
Not expecting a bunch of new stuff this season, so just tacking these on to last season's post. Maybe I'll end up happily wrong about that :)

Here's some in the Okinawan citrus, close relatives of shekwasha and oto.

  • kaabuchii (kabuchi): I was surprised by the hint of ammonia aroma in the rind, which was consistent across all of the fruit I had. My initial tasting note was "sour watermelon candy", and I sort of stand by that. Closer to shekwasha and with less of the rich taste I associate with some ripe sour mandarins. Definitely juicy and refreshing. I suspect there would be some familiar sour fruit compound in any analysis of it, maybe malic acid? I feel like you could eat a sack of these and not feel sick of sugar. Almost into hyuganatsu levels of refreshing juiciness. Faint hints of the vegetable notes of cucumber or celery you expect from some Japanese citrus.
  • tarugayou (tarugayo): Much more like oto than like shekwasha. There is a niche market for essential oil from the rind, which describes the aroma as being remarkably calming, but I found it a little elusive in mine. Definitely a nifty fruit, though. My first tasting note was "clove, vanilla," and I stand by that. Some of the same notes you find in other Okinawan citrus, just balanced differently. Speaking of balance, while the kaabuchii were very balanced with sweetness and sourness, these were not. A bit flat, almost, but not insipid. Has more of a hint of the carrot taste you get with an inferior (my opinion) mandarin, like a force-ripened Murcott, but nowhere near as insipid. Probably the best word is smooth. I'd be interested in seeing what offspring with a parent with richer flavour might be like.

My plans for the rest of the season mostly involve a lot of yuzu, some oto, and more tachibana. I definitely seem to be really enjoying descendants of Citrus ryukyuensis! If anyone knows of someone collecting wild fruit of C. ryukyuensis, I very much want to hear about it, and will eagerly buy some!! (Probably I just need to be prioritizing a trip to Japan, myself.)

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« on: November 04, 2023, 09:36:19 PM »
"It's good where we're not." You can paraphrase this saying for plants as well. While Russians are looking for American varieties, such as “ninth ball” and the like, Americans are getting Russian varieties like “Parfianka” from somewhere.

Too right! People who live in the tropics fight to grow grapes and apples. People are very silly creatures sometimes :)

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