Author Topic: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)  (Read 3103 times)

Enkis

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2023, 12:14:02 AM »
Probably one of the largest commercial Avocado nurseries in the US.


This nursery also seem to produce large quantities of plants. They have Zutano between their varieties.
https://www.viverosbrokaw.com

It's located in Spain

They are a multinational company with large commercial nurseries in the U.S., Spain, Mexico, and likely other places too.

Ok, got it
Keep planting and nobody explodes

lajos93

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2023, 10:38:32 AM »
Yes! You're probably referring to Mike, who found a seedling in his compost in southern England. I'm in regular contact with Mike, who posts photo updates on his trees here:
https://imgur.com/a/5gflnlU

His location may technically be zone 8, but really closer to zone 9. Most winters since that tree sprouted he has not seen temperatures below -4°C (25°F), and he hasn't updated that page after this current winter, where the tree suffered significant dieback based on an email he sent a month ago. Here's a relevant excerpt from the email:

Yes, Its him, saw his post somewhere before.

But there are quite a few in London, I wonder what their parents are. Allegedly there was -10 in 2012 there, they and apparently they are still alive, so they did survive that.


What about your hardy seedlings? Any news, how many did survive this winter and can you tell what were your lows?
stuff

lajos93

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2023, 10:41:44 AM »
Probably one of the largest commercial Avocado nurseries in the US.


This nursery also seem to produce large quantities of plants. They have Zutano between their varieties.
https://www.viverosbrokaw.com

It's located in Spain

They are a multinational company with large commercial nurseries in the U.S., Spain, Mexico, and likely other places too.

Ok, got it

Zutano, Bacon is lot less hardy than Joey, Lila, Poncho etc.. so you might try those knowing that you arent utilitizing the current potential that already is known avocados to have. Its kinda pointless I think
stuff

Enkis

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2023, 11:16:52 AM »
Quote
Zutano, Bacon is lot less hardy than Joey, Lila, Poncho etc.. so you might try those knowing that you arent utilitizing the current potential that already is known avocados to have. Its kinda pointless I think
They probably also have something better, maybe something they use as rootstocks
Keep planting and nobody explodes

drymifolia

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2023, 01:07:27 PM »
Quote
Zutano, Bacon is lot less hardy than Joey, Lila, Poncho etc.. so you might try those knowing that you arent utilitizing the current potential that already is known avocados to have. Its kinda pointless I think
They probably also have something better, maybe something they use as rootstocks

Yes, though mostly they use clonal rootstocks now rather than seedling. Some of the clonal rootstocks are hard to find in any retail nursery though, so might be good to grow as breeding stock too. Toro Canyon, for example, is one that I've wanted to add to our collection for awhile but have mostly given up finding any sellers at the retail level. I think they are one of the only nurseries propagating that rootstock.

But there are quite a few in London, I wonder what their parents are. Allegedly there was -10 in 2012 there, they and apparently they are still alive, so they did survive that.
The London trees are growing in the warmest part of the London heat island (zone 9b/10a) in a garden surrounded by large brick buildings. I very much doubt those trees got that cold even if other parts of London did. Mike plans to graft scions from the London trees on his seedlings, though, so that will help us learn how hardy they are.

Quote
What about your hardy seedlings? Any news, how many did survive this winter and can you tell what were your lows?
It's too early to know how many survived, it has been a cold spring and most of the avocados haven't started growing yet. By late May I'll have a better idea, and anything that hasn't sprouted by late June will be declared dead. Most of them are killed above ground, but a few of them survived a bit of the way up the trunk (those all had at least a bucket or flower pot on them for the coolest nights).

The temperatures are easier to answer, here's my outside temperature chart from November to today, with the coldest night selected to show exact low:


Enkis

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2023, 01:54:09 PM »
I don't know if you already saw it but they actually have the list of rootstocks:
https://www.viverosbrokaw.com/products/avocado/avocado-rootstocks/?lang=en

They have both seedlings and clonal. They also ranked the frost tolerance of each if you look in the tables but they all basically got the same score
Keep planting and nobody explodes

drymifolia

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2023, 03:45:46 PM »
I don't know if you already saw it but they actually have the list of rootstocks:
https://www.viverosbrokaw.com/products/avocado/avocado-rootstocks/?lang=en

They have both seedlings and clonal. They also ranked the frost tolerance of each if you look in the tables but they all basically got the same score

Ah, I had never checked the nursery in Spain since it's impossible to import from there to the US, for the US nursery they mostly only offer clonal rootstocks, and I have never found any reasonable way to place an order other than for local pickup/delivery. Here's the U.S. sister company:
https://www.brokawnursery.com/ourproducts/avocado/rootstocks/

In southern CA they will graft them and deliver them locally, but only in large orders for commercial growers. I do not think they sell seeds or ungrafted rootstocks, but I'm sure they would if someone placed a large enough order. Their 20 tree minimum isn't too bad, if only there was some way to get them from their nursery to mine here in WA.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 03:49:15 PM by drymifolia »

K-Rimes

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2023, 05:01:33 PM »
I don't know if you already saw it but they actually have the list of rootstocks:
https://www.viverosbrokaw.com/products/avocado/avocado-rootstocks/?lang=en

They have both seedlings and clonal. They also ranked the frost tolerance of each if you look in the tables but they all basically got the same score

Ah, I had never checked the nursery in Spain since it's impossible to import from there to the US, for the US nursery they mostly only offer clonal rootstocks, and I have never found any reasonable way to place an order other than for local pickup/delivery. Here's the U.S. sister company:
https://www.brokawnursery.com/ourproducts/avocado/rootstocks/

In southern CA they will graft them and deliver them locally, but only in large orders for commercial growers. I do not think they sell seeds or ungrafted rootstocks, but I'm sure they would if someone placed a large enough order. Their 20 tree minimum isn't too bad, if only there was some way to get them from their nursery to mine here in WA.

Brokaw sells them onesie twosie if you shmooze enough, I have a single one in my yard. I could try to ship you one but they're kinda big usually. Mine was 4' almost 5' when I picked it up. It is not performing any better than the Sir Prize I have planted that is on unknown rootstock, but slightly different spots in yard.

lajos93

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2023, 03:53:06 PM »
@drymifolia

Have you read this?
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=24627.0

This guy has some success with finding the hardy ones from allegedly supermarket seeds in Zone 8b. Not Zone 7b-8a, but still something to get inspired by
stuff

drymifolia

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2023, 09:58:20 AM »
@drymifolia

Have you read this?
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=24627.0

This guy has some success with finding the hardy ones from allegedly supermarket seeds in Zone 8b. Not Zone 7b-8a, but still something to get inspired by

I'd be curious what temperatures the "week of real frost" were. I think you'll have much lower survival rate at the actual minimum for 8b (-9.4°C) as opposed to a milder frost of -4°C or warmer, especially if you're starting with less hardy seeds.

Avofan

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2023, 12:28:12 PM »
Why not use Mexicola, Duke, Aravaipa as a clonal rootstock? You graft it to any seedling, then after that heals you pile up the dirt and stimulate above the graft to make roots. But instead of grafting on top of that you would just have a clone of an Aravaipa or Duke, already proven trees. It seems like it would be weak for a few years but once the roots filled out - why shouldn’t it be just as good as a seed tree? You would need to baby it in a 5 gal pot for a couple years and check the bottom to see the roots- once they have filled the pot then you would start the cold hardening process.

I have an Aravaipa that I grafted to Hass. It’s growing well. I am going to use it as a mother tree to take cuttings. I have a lot of Bacon seedlings ready to be grafted. Once I have grafted Aravaipa to the Bacon seeds then I think I’ll try this method from California Rare Fruit Growers:

“Propagation: Desired clonal rootstocks can be be propagated by a method known as the etiolation technique. The largest seed are planted in gallon cans and the seedlings are then grafted to a root rot tolerant clonal scion. When the stem of the graft reaches about 1/4 inch in diameter, the top is cut off leaving a whorl of buds just above the graft. A 4 inch band of black tar paper is formed into an extension of the can and filled with vermiculite and placed in a dark box with high temperature and humidity. When growth is some 3 – 4 inches above the vermiculite, the plant is removed into the light where the upper portion quickly assumes a green color. The tar paper collar is removed, the shoot is severed from the seed and then placed in flats where the cuttings are rooted in the conventional manner.”

Radoslav

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2023, 01:18:46 PM »
The avocados took 12-18 months to grow and mature. So, what is the sense of frost hardy plant?

sc4001992

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2023, 02:44:18 PM »
Enkis. that's an interesting article by George Stancliffe.

I grew out many avocaod seedlings (10 or so) and one of my large seedling tree always has the bright red new leaves, I wonder if that means it could be a cold hardy avocaod?

I did get fruits from this tree and it tastes good so I'm keeping the tree, just air layered it a year ago since I had to cut down the larger seedling tree (15 ft tall).

drymifolia

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2023, 04:47:27 PM »
Why not use Mexicola, Duke, Aravaipa as a clonal rootstock? You graft it to any seedling, then after that heals you pile up the dirt and stimulate above the graft to make roots. But instead of grafting on top of that you would just have a clone of an Aravaipa or Duke, already proven trees. It seems like it would be weak for a few years but once the roots filled out - why shouldn’t it be just as good as a seed tree? You would need to baby it in a 5 gal pot for a couple years and check the bottom to see the roots- once they have filled the pot then you would start the cold hardening process.

I have an Aravaipa that I grafted to Hass. It’s growing well. I am going to use it as a mother tree to take cuttings. I have a lot of Bacon seedlings ready to be grafted. Once I have grafted Aravaipa to the Bacon seeds then I think I’ll try this method from California Rare Fruit Growers

The reason to plant seeds is to increase the total gene pool for selecting hardy trees adapted to your particular area. If you live somewhere only slightly too cold for avocado, then there are likely already cultivars (like those you listed) that you can grow, either on their own roots or grafted. But for those of us trying to push the boundary further beyond the current limits, new seedlings need to be tested, and the larger the number the better.

If you want own-root trees, you can just root them without using a nurse root/grafting method, especially for Mexican-race avocados, which root more easily than Guatemalan or WI types. I have successfully rooted many avocados, but it typically takes 6+ months to root, and a year or more before they begin to grow more vigorously. Here are some old papers that I used as a rough template for my method:
https://www.avocadosource.com/Journals/FSHSP/FSHSP_VOL_77_PG_358-362_1964.pdf

https://avocadosource.com/Journals/ASHS/ASHS_1981_106_PG_127-130.pdf


The avocados took 12-18 months to grow and mature. So, what is the sense of frost hardy plant?

Many Mexican-race avocados ripen the same year they flower, in as little as 6-8 months. The Guatemalan types and commercial hybrids typically require 12-18 months, but not the Mexican race.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 04:52:51 PM by drymifolia »

Pandan

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Re: Planting 1000s of seeds from the cold hardiest avocados (experiment)
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2023, 10:59:34 PM »
Its been said on this thread or another that persea have compatibility issues but the only paper I've been able to find that hybridizes a hardy NA persea to p.americana is from the 50s! And iirc its only persea bubonia (red bay) and not persea palustris (swamp bay) and p.palustris might be slightly closer



 Source: MOLECULAR PHYLOGENETIC ANALYSIS OF THE PERSEA GROUP
(LAURACEAE) lang li

Even in that 50s article there were some hybrids between persea species even tho the borbonia crosses failed. Has there been other documented experiments on interspecies crosses in this genus? Especially with p.palustris

Edit: The 50s persea hybridization paper I'm referencing: https://www.avocadosource.com/Journals/ASHS/ASHS_1954_63_PG_239-242.pdf
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 11:09:14 PM by Pandan »

 

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