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Messages - mikkel

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I have an ichangensis seedling that showed this bifoliate pattern on a single leaf.

another type more reminding to Ichang Lemon, might not be a true wild one

ichangensis is quite variable

this is an ichangensis from southwestern guizhou province, China
probably a cluster III type on your table

similar to the type described here:


You are treating this as if these are different experiments that each prove the same thing. In actuality, each of these studies are just examining certain markers. Probably many of those markers overlap between the different studies. ...

have you even read my post ?

Unfortunately I am afraid there may be a little bit of a language barrier between us, so communication about some of these precise things might be difficult.

don't hide behind arguments like these!
first of all, read what i wrote. then reflect , then answer.


True, I did a lot of other speculation

you did.
Nothing wrong with speculation, but on your side it always sounds like a fact.

I read it back and it says the same thing, here I took screenshots of the parts of the analysis.  C. medica appeared in the graph in the same place as C. ichangensis, they are clearly different and were raised in large multidisciplinary and international works.  There in the text it says that possibly discarding some results could be the reason that C. ichangensis and C. medica will be placed together and that Yuzu is still closer to C. ichangensis and C. reticulata, confirming what has already been stated in others occasions.  Furthermore, if multiple research projects reach the same point and one proposes something different, science is consolidated by evidence and because its results are repeatable, not by exceptions.  I had already seen other research articles that, if they cared, raised c.  medica as homologous to C. ichangensis, which those who do comparative morphology clearly disagree on everything.  There was also a similar genetic phenomenon when research into the origin of citrus fruits was done.  The results showed that C. medica was related to Australian citrus trees, but only in the chloroplast genome. This was considered an error and it was clarified that it made a phylogenetic tree that was not very parsimonious, meaning that it posed more problems than solutions.

if you compare different papers you will find that the species and types sometimes fall into different clusters. Depending on which genetic markers were analysed.  This is not surprising. The study only provides an answer to the specific question, everything else remains interpretation.
I think it is difficult to try to force a clear answer here, there are studies that have delivered results. They were not wrong, the overall picture emerges until the next study comes along, which can change or confirm everything.
If some people here reinterpret research results based on taste and personal impressions, turn lemon into citron, turn the results upside down to suit their own personal preferences (I'm not talking about you, Lauta!), then this is not helpful, it creates confusion and is pure speculation and certainly not scientific.
I don't think the question of yuzu ancestry is clear one way or the other, but the results show that there are several possible interpretations, depending on the genetic markers analysed.
The two links Ilya posted point in the direction of non-parenthood. This cannot simply be ignored or overruled by the majority. The categorisation of the results is an interpretation, we must be aware of that. And our interpretation is amateur interpretation

"Swingle considered it a unique variety related to papeda, and regarded yuzu as a chance seedling of C. ichangensis [11]. However, the allele-sharing test clearly refutes this proposal, with 31 out of 123 DNA markers not shared between yuzu and C. ichangensis. Because the cytotype of C. ichangensis was unique, but the lemon-type cytotype was found in 13 varieties "

"These observations hypothesized that C. ichangensis could an offspring of an unidentified papeda × lemon, and yuzu might also be an offspring of this unidentified papeda."

in "Results" Paragraph 8

"I could not speculate... But it seems that ...
I see a certain contradiction in the line of argumentation

I`am out...

I agree that genetic tests are only ever meaningful in relation to the material tested and that results can change if the test is extended. However, in relation to the material that was analysed, genetic studies are absolutely conclusive and definitive. What you can ask is whether it might be better to investigate other species, whether the question could be improved.

With regard to yuzu and ichangensis, however, it is the case that ichangensis cannot genetically be the parental species of yuzu. Whether the true parent species is a close relative or just an as yet unknown type of ichangensis, who knows, that is speculation.

However, sensory impressions are not proof that genetic tests are wrong, they are at best indications.

@SoCal2warm In Europe, ichangensis and yuzu are quite common and not so rare. I wouldn't go so far as to doubt genetic studies just because I've tasted both fruits once.  You can make an assumption and others can make contrary assumptions, but none of that is proof!

I think there is new research that says yuzu is a descendant of a species closely related to ichangensis, but not ichangensis itself.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Possible Sacaton citrumelo x Ten Degree Tangerine
« on: February 04, 2024, 12:24:48 AM »
I have found this leaf type in Sacaton seedlings as well as monofoliates. Sacaton tends to have a high rate of segregation or cross-pollination

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: February 02, 2024, 02:11:07 AM »
Does Genoa flower all year round or does it have a limited flowering period, e.g. only in spring?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 31, 2024, 09:22:14 PM »
Is Genoa a 4 season variety as Eureka?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 31, 2024, 08:34:19 AM »
The fastest flowering in my hybrids is from the Genoa lemon x rampurg lime, it is flowering after 2 years, a single plant from that cross made this phenomenon.

How many seedlings of this combination do you have in total? Has only 1 seedling flowered at 2 years?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 30, 2024, 03:08:06 PM »
interesting hybrids! I'll have to check garden centers more closely:P
I see now where the pictures come from.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 30, 2024, 12:43:48 PM »
I also consider backcrossing to be a suitable means of obtaining a combination of the desired characteristics. However, recurrent backcrossing also requires a large number of seedlings that have to be grown until fruit maturity. This is the weak point of this breeding method for tree species with a long juvenile phase.

For targeted breeding, an intentional crossing strategy is the safest method, but is more suitable for annuals.

Are these pictures showing your plants?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 25, 2024, 02:28:38 AM »
I'll take the liberty of translating your text into English :)

thanks, there i read. there is the theory , we will see in a couple of years (maybe 3 ) the practice because before i read that i pollinate rampurg (which flowers fast, one of my 2 year old hybrids already flowered) , with acid free orange and C. limetoide, i also have sweet lime already flowered which is from seed to see what comes out its fruit. 😋I will see what I achieve with my practices, also pollinate nagami with acid free orange. too bad with poncirus did not grab any fruit. This is a matter of years, bear with me and I will be able to give you my experience, and if it goes wrong at most I will have new acid varieties 😋. that yes, we must make a distraction as it lends to confusion: anthocyanin is not related neither to domestication nor to sweetness, it is only so in these mutants as there are varieties without anthocyanin in their shoots but it is absolutely acidic , ex: rampurg, rough lemon, wild and graft-foot mandarin, acid Pummelo, citranges, citrumelos, Poncirus, kumquat, etc. so if you see something with anthocyanin in its buds that a seedling does not have..... save it!

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 23, 2024, 04:47:26 PM »
We discussed this in the acid-free thread. You can read it once. I know that Ilya mentioned it. Maybe you can find a link in this thread

It would be nice to grow more Glauca hybrids. I have seen that some people in the south of France have flowering plants. I haven't had any flowering Glauca here in northern Germany. I think it's because of our cooler summers. In general, also the Microcitrus species are also very reluctant to flower here.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Amoa 8 Blood Mandarin…woah!
« on: January 21, 2024, 05:34:49 PM »
This suggests a backcross

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Amoa 8 Blood Mandarin…woah!
« on: January 21, 2024, 03:44:21 PM »
just a thought I suspect Ruby Red / Pt hybrids backcrossed with Ruby Red should show some "Blood" genetics

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: January 15, 2024, 04:09:37 PM »

This is a Swingle seedling. The original 5Star. What is now known as 5Star is a mislabelled plant that Ilya received from Bernhard.
The above plant is almost unknown, so I think it's better to stick with 5Star for Ilya's plant.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: January 14, 2024, 04:39:58 PM »
This is the Swingle 5Star from Bernhard Voss (Picture by B.Voss)

Welcome to the forum!

I meanwhile have a Rose-Anne and a Piera. Piera bloomed in July and is no longer mature before winter. If it always flowers like this, I assume it's an early-flowering variety rather than a late-flowering one.

I'm still looking for E.prinoides, but no chance. Even google only lists a few hits. All in Asia.

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