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Messages - SoCal2warm

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You can grow kiwi from seeds. It's not too difficult.

I think the seeds need to be freshly taken out of a fruit though.

I grew some under artificial light, in a container covered over by clear plastic to prevent the soil from drying out.

They actually grow very fast.

The only downside is that growing by seed you have a 50% chance it will turn out to be a male or female, which still isn't too bad since you will need a male to pollinate the female to get fruit.

Supposedly golden kiwi is just a little bit less hardy than regular kiwi, but I know they can survive through a normal winter in zone 8a.

Ichang papeda, some of the leaves are slowly beginning to recover their green color.

Ichangquat seedling, some of the leaves are beginning to recover, which is surprising. The leaves looked so pale before. It still has not grown any new leaves.

Bloomsweet beginning to put out some solid new growth now, looks good

Keraji, on grafted rootstock, looks very good. Some sort of insects seem to have taken some bites out of some leaves.

pictures taken May 13, 2021

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: May 10, 2021, 06:05:52 PM »
I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
You say you are in Vienna, zone 7b.
Do you think you might be in a part of the city that is actually more like 8a ?
Thank you for sharing the picture and information about your Ichang papeda growing there.

I wonder why my Ichang papedas don't appear to be looking as hardy. Maybe what I have is a different cultivar of Ichang papeda that is not as hardy? Maybe something about the climate here, with its wet winters and lack of heat in the early part of the year?

One additional piece of evidence that points to Yuzu being more likely to be a hybrid is that it is always full of many seeds, and most of those seeds are nucellar, whereas Ichang papeda often seems to have almost no seeds, presumably due to not being pollinated by a different variety, and I think the seeds in Ichang papeda are zygotic.
Typically hybridization (between different species) often results in that sort of situation.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: May 06, 2021, 07:53:39 PM »
my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret ... But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Just to point out, there is one picture of a C. ichangensis in Germany zone 8a here:
"Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland"

But it does seem to be in the middle of a residential suburban neighborhood, which may be having an effect on temperatures.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: May 04, 2021, 06:19:22 PM »
I don't understand it. Once again, it looks like Yuzu is recovering better and more vigorously than Ichang papeda. I have two Ichang papeda plants and several Yuzu, both on rootstock and on their own roots, planted in ground, and the Yuzu are all beginning to leaf out right now, while the Ichang papeda have no new leaf buds and look rather pale and very yellow-greenish in hue, both the leaves and stems. This seems to be an indicator to me that Ichang papeda, or at least this ascension of Ichang papeda, is not as cold resistant here, although I can't really say that for sure, since this is not talking about actual survival.
This is in the Pacific Northwest climate, zone 8a.

I don't understand why Yuzu seems to be doing so much better here than Ichang papeda. All the sources say that Ichang papeda is supposed to be more hardy. (And yes, I am aware what the distinctive shape looks like of the leaves of Ichang papeda. This is Ichang papeda)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: May 03, 2021, 07:51:53 PM »
Thanks for the note on the yuzu vs changsha. It sounds like yuzu and changsha are close in hardiness.
Yuzu is more hardy than Changsha. These are not my only Yuzu and Changsha plants. I can see it in the color of the leaves, the exposure to cold does not cause the Yuzu leaves to turn as yellowish in hue as the Changsha, which I have found is usually is a good indicator of hardiness. (Although strangely the leaves of both of my two Ichang papeda plants turn very pale and yellowish, so maybe this is not always the case)

It seems like Yuzu is not all that much more hardy than Changsha though, although I cannot say for sure based on personal experiences.

This is purely anecdotal and could be wrong but I get the feeling that Yuzu can start growing vigorously at a little bit of a lower temperature level than Changsha, although both are vigorous growing varieties. Changsha loves hot temperatures though and might take off faster than Yuzu in climates with hotter temperatures.

They both seem to recover from damage well, which may not be the case with all cold hardy varieties.

I've tasted the fruits from both, freshly picked from the tree, and while the peels of Yuzu are tender and kind of edible, the peels of Changsha are definitely not. Most people will tell you the inside of a Changsha is better eating quality than the inside of a Yuzu though. Might only be a little bit better, it is a little subjective.

Its good to know yuzu is growing outside in Seattle.
I don't know how well Yuzu would grow in Seattle. Where I am has very slightly colder average winter temperatures than Seattle, but also gets a little hotter in the summer. The plants really need that heat, due to the cool climate and shorter growing season here.

As you go only a little bit north of Seattle, there are many areas that get very little heat most of the year.

That can be difficult to imagine for people who live in the South. There are some big climate differences despite the fact that we both may live in zone 8a.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: May 02, 2021, 07:26:57 PM »
I planted a small Yuzu and a Changsha in the ground as an experiment to see how they would do. Both of them are only 4 inches tall, growing on their own roots. The Yuzu is a seedling and the Changsha was a rooted cutting, and so is much thicker than the Yuzu. They are right next to each other. They are in a protected location, but were not protected or covered. I can provide an update now, it appears both of them were able to survive through the winter outside.
The Yuzu lost all its leaves, and the leaves on the Changsha do not look so good, only marginally alive, it looks like maybe only one of the leaves might be able to recover. Both of them are now beginning to put out a small flush of new leaf bud growth. They both look like they are growing with about the same amount of vigor now.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: New citrus tree in ground
« on: May 01, 2021, 03:49:03 PM »
In the specific case of kumquat, do you think being grafted on poncirus makes it more resistant to freeze damage?
What have your observations indicated about this?

I did read that kumquat enters and stays in dormancy much more easily than other citrus species, a protective mechanism against cold damage, so am wondering whether grafting it onto poncirus might be redundant. (Just a thought, I have no idea)

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Ichang papeda pollen available
« on: May 01, 2021, 03:06:04 PM »
If any of you are interested in attempting to make a cold hardy hybrid.

I'm not sure exactly when, but a large Ichang papeda tree here will soon be in bloom. This is your chance to get some pollen.

Remember, pollen tends to have a short viability time, maybe only a few days, maybe a week or two in a refrigerator. If you are interested, please give me some time estimate of when your citrus will be in bloom, so I can try to send it at the closest time.

Remember, citrus varieties that have the highest rates of zygotic seed and which are most suitable for using as the female parent in breeding include most types of mandarins, citron, kumquat, and pomelo. Regular lemons and grapefruit have lower percentages of zygotic seeds (maybe 15-30 percent) and regular oranges have very low percentages of zygotic seed and are usually not practical to use as the female parent in attempted crosses. You can ask me about the specific variety that you're thinking about using and I can try to look it up, if you're not sure.

You can private message me.
You will probably need to contact me within the next 2 or 3 weeks.

Typical Ichang papeda hybrids are likely to turn out suitable to climate zone 8b, 8a, or possibly even 7b if the female parent is something very hardy like a trifoliate hybrid. (You can give me your location if you're not sure what climate zone designation you are in)

Even if you live in a warmer climate, you could still try to develop a new hybrid that might be useful to other people who are in colder climates.
(In fact it will probably be much easier to try to breed and create a new variety if it is done in a warmer climate)

You might want to put a little label on the branch area of the tree that you attempt to pollinate, so you know which specific fruits to harvest for seeds later.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Indoor citrus/fruit tree grow lights?
« on: April 30, 2021, 09:36:12 PM »
There are already several other older discussions on this topic.

Regular white 5000K LED works perfectly fine, and you are not going to get much improvement using anything else.

Red+blue LED can theoretically be more energy efficient (twice as much, if you were curious), but in the less expensive options being sold to amateur growers are actually going to be less efficient than a regular white LED bulb.

a small update:

The Sudachi is beginning to put out a flush of leaf growth, which is surprising because its older leaves right now look scant and not really the healthiest.

Surprisingly the little Ichangquat seedling that hasn't seemed to be doing that well, a few of its leaves are starting to green up and are still alive/functional. Those leaves have to be three years old by now. These few leaves look more green than they did last year, when the plant wasn't able to put out any leaf growth. And I think I am seeing the tiniest beginnings of little green bud growth.

I guess both of these plants appreciated the mild winter temperatures.

Ive lost almost all poncirus hybrids when temps reached 5 degrees F and below over several years. Also lost 10 ft tall dunstan and swingle citrumelos when temps never got above freezing, hovering at or just below 32 degrees F for a week. I lost hybrids when they just started putting out new growth in March, when we got a low of 14 degrees, and these were protected in a high tunnel with water barrels next to each tree.
From what I have observed, the amount of cold tolerance can go down if the citrus is covered in such a way that creates a greenhouse effect. The very warm daytime temperatures inside the covering then brings the citrus out of dormancy and can make even cold hardy citrus vulnerable to modest cold temperatures.
So I think it is important to describe the conditions of the covering, if that may have been creating a greenhouse effect.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hardy citrus fried
« on: April 15, 2021, 05:19:32 PM »
From the coloration now, it looks like it's died down to an inch above the soil line.

Well, in the video it says it "failed the flavor test" and was nasty.

I have tasted Poncirus trifoliata fruit from an apparently unordinary tree that I could manage to eat and had a flavor less worse than Poncirus hybrids I've tasted.
I do wonder what the results would be if these crosses were remade using a less bad tasting type of Poncirus.

I was told the tree was just sold as an ordinary Flying Dragon from One Green World. They must have grown it from a seedling. Everything about it appears to be just like a Flying Dragon, pretty sure no chance it could be a hybrid.
I'm now growing several seedlings from it.

A question: Shouldn't this have been posted in Cold Hardy Citrus?

Cold Hardy Citrus / hardy citrus fried
« on: April 12, 2021, 06:02:00 PM »
This seedling from an N1tri (poncirus x ichang papeda) hybrid was planted out in late September last year.
It's now April, and you can see that it is fried.

This is very surprising because many of my other hardy citrus look good, kept their leaves and the leaves still look green now. Varieties that should have been less hardy than this one.

This was also planted right up against the side of the house, so that should have helped too.

What I think the explanation is, this was growing under artificial light indoors before I transferred it out. The leaves had not experienced cold yet and were not adapted to it. Even though the plant had several weeks time of cold before any freeze came.

What I think this demonstrates is that plant tissues adapt to cold as they are growing. If a plant's tissues have not experienced any cold yet, those tissues will be vulnerable to cold. Even cold that never goes below freezing. And even if it is a hardy variety of citrus that otherwise should have a very high cold tolerance. Hardy citrus require a long period of time to adapt themselves to colder temperatures.

Suddenly transferring the plants from warm growing areas to outside colder areas can be problematic.

It is of course also possible that these particular seedling did not get very good genes for hardiness, since there is some randomness when one grows from a seed, but it's hard to imagine that being the case here.

zone 8a, Pacific Northwest, relatively mild winter in terms of how low temperatures dropped, maybe 22 to 24 F (-4 to -5 C ) was the lowest point.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 09, 2021, 03:43:28 PM »
I heard people putting them in a basement before, I assume the air is more humid there, unfortunately our basement has no window with direct light, as as dark as hell there (perfect to grow mushrooms though xD) so I don't know if they'd survive 3 months in total darkness.
That's not important. Plants don't need light to overwinter in the garage, so long as the temperatures do not get warm enough for them to grow (typically if the temperatures do not get much above 45 F or 7 C for citrus)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Wild orange in Texas (Brazos Bend)
« on: April 08, 2021, 08:11:23 PM »
If all it shows is defoliation and twig loss that would be huge.  With temps in the low teens and 20's for 3 days straight, if it survived at all, I would be amazed.  I'm about 40 miles north of this tree, but in Houston, and I lost all my grapefruits, lemons, satsumas, oranges and 1 kumquat. Only survivor in my yard was a 25 year old meiwa kumquat that looks dead, but there are little shoots coming out of the bark on the main scaffolding branches. Virtually all the dooryard citrus around here look deceased.
If all your citrus died in Houston, the cold front must have been really bad. You say even your Satsumas were killed. I did not realize the freeze had got that bad in Texas, all the way down south to Houston.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 08, 2021, 09:43:58 AM »
Seattle moved from 8a to 8b when USDA put out their 2012 growing zone map, but the heat units are the lowest of basically any 8b in the world, so citrus is tough.
Well, that may be true compared to the US Southeast, but that is a little bit of an exaggeration to say the world.

There are some islands between Vancouver Island and the city of Vancouver (the Gulf Islands in the Salish Sea) that have lower heat units.
Even Whidbey Island, just a little north of Seattle has notoriously low heat units, definitely worse than Seattle. People there complain they need cold frames to be able to grow many types of vegetables.
The west coast of Scotland has some very low heat units, in zone 9. There are some parts of Iceland on the peninsulas that are surrounded by sea that are zone 8a with heat units that are so low it is nearly impossible to even grow an apple tree out in the open.

I'm about an hour south of Seattle, and the summers here actually get as hot as they do in coastal southern California, it's just that the time period of that heat is much shorter, maybe only lasts for a month and a half, and it's a much shorter growing season for citrus, maybe only a little more than a third of the year with temperatures high enough that the citrus can put on any significant growth, and I would say nearly half the year with the citrus in a state of complete dormancy.

To my understanding, much of the increased cold tollerence in mature trees comes from their larger mass. A larger tree simply holds more heat and has thicker bark than a small one.
That is what I've seen here (or actually closer to the Portland area, to be more precise) on a large Yuzu tree that looked like a hedge. The outer layer of leaves were almost fried, but the inner ones looked like they had not been affected as much.

I would guess that the outer leaves help block the movement of air. And also the water content in the outer leaves might release some heat energy as they freeze, helping to protect the inner part of the canopy.

That is why, to try to mimic that protective process, I cover a few of my more vulnerable varieties with a paper bag covering and put bottles of water inside, up against the plant. As little protection as this actually provides, I think it provides at least some, maybe 2 or 3 degrees of temperature difference.

Wind actually does make a significant difference. Citrus will freeze much faster in wind than with no wind. Plants usually maintain a temperature that is just a little bit warmer than the air surrounding them.

Even on the coldest nights here, most of the night is only slightly below the freezing point, but then it just dips down for three or four hours, and it will not dip below 15 F for more than about half an hour (really rough approximation just for example). So I think protection from wind can be crucial.
The leaves of hardy citrus are not going to literally freeze if the air temperature is only just a little bit below the freezing point.

I don't know if this is specifically true of kumquat, however.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 07, 2021, 03:24:28 PM »
Well, this is not specifically about kumquat, but I experimented with planting an Ichangquat (kumquat x Ichang papeda) seedling growing on its own roots, in the US Pacific Northwest, climate zone 8a. Probably about the same latitude as France and a comparable climate.
It has not done so well. Technically it is still alive, the stems are still green, but it did not manage to put out any new leaves last year, for the entire year.
I would expect this seedling has to be at least as hardy as kumquat. (I know growing seedlings from hybrids though can yield unpredictable results)

I also read about an attempt at growing a kumquat near Atlanta, Georgia (which is in the South of the US), climate zone 7b. Even though it was covered by frost cloth, it did not end up able to survive.
I think normally kumquat can grow in the US South down to zone 8a, but probably not in zone 8a in parts of the world further north.
I also read one person report that they had a kumquat surviving in Seattle (supposedly zone 8a) but in a very optimal location on a warm south-facing slope, and that is in the middle of a big city.

I'll agree with the Minneola tangelos, I've had really good ones and ones that weren't so great. It probably has to do with freshness, perhaps a little bit to do with growing conditions and maturity of the tree.

This has been a cold winter, a relatively long winter too (although that's typical for this region), although this has been a relatively mild winter in terms of how far the temperature has dropped. I think it only went down to around 22 F (-5 or -6 C).

What it has felt like, this entire "winter" season has really been more like a cold spring (springtime season), with the exception of a week in the middle of February beginning the 11th or 12th. I mean one could find a few camellia and rhododendron bushes with some fresh flower blooms on them throughout the winter, except during that single time interval when there was snow. But that is not atypical for this area.

There were a few light frosts before then and after then, of course, but those temperatures were barely just below freezing. Certain types of plant species were able to continue putting out some flower blooms despite those frosts.
But it was still a cold winter in the sense that we did not have any warm spells, and the temperatures were pretty much constantly and consistently cold.

Two years ago it did get down to 12 F (between -11 and -10 C), again in the early half of February. The Dunstan citrumelo and Yuzu shown in the pictures were in the ground then and survived that. The Bloomsweet was in the ground too then but had a covering over it, although with a vented fabric top, although since it was covered with a deep layer of snow that probably insulated it when the coldest temperatures came. It suffered some fairly severe bark damage at the base of the trunk but was later able to recover, even though I wasn't sure it would. The Yuzu suffered some moderate bark damage at the base of its trunk too. That was the same time when the tiny Keraji seedling was killed down to a half inch above the ground, although as you can see in the most recent picture it was able to partially recover.


This one is growing in the back up against a fence, far away from the house.

tiny little Keraji seedling in the ground, on its own roots

It is still alive, and has now gone through three winters so far, but has not grown too much. It's only a little over 2 inches high.
I am hoping maybe if it is able to put on a little more growth, it might be able to start growing faster. I do realize that trying to grow Keraji here on its own roots is probably very marginal. It was an experiment.

Ichang lemon, in a container on the deck

The leaves look a pale green color. This was left outside all winter.

This I believe is a "MIC", in a container

supposed to be a ((Temple orange/tangor x trifoliata) x Ichang papeda) x Minneola tangelo hybrid , although there is not much information about it
So far it does not seem to be proving very cold hardy. I had another one of these planted against the fence far away from the house and it was killed after an unusually cold winter 2 years ago.
The leaves look like a pale kind of yellowish shade of green. Those leaves are probably not going to be able to recover, although it will grow out new leaves.

I am hoping this might have potential for further breeding.

Ichangquat seedling, on its own roots

grew this from a seedling. This has been its second winter in the ground, unprotected.
I'm not sure it got the best luck of the draw when it came to cold hardy genetics. Most of seeds appeared to be zygotic. When it was originally first planted it looked very healthy and vigorous. Last year it wasn't able to grow a single new leaf. All those leaves that you see on the plant have been there for two years. I think the leaves may still technically be alive, but probably not very functional. The leaves look a very pale yellowish color. The thin little trunks of the plant still look green though, a moderately healthy color. It might manage to put out a little leaf growth later.

There's also another Ichangquat seedling (not pictured here) with leaves that look a great dark green color right now. I suspect that one might have been pollinated by citrumelo, however, so its hardiness might not be representative of Ichangquat.
Indeed, due to Ichangquat seeds being very zygotic, it could be the case that the seedlings would be expected to show a range of different cold tolerances.
(not a subject I want to get too much into here)

picture taken April 1, 2021

put a bag in the background for contrast, so you can better see the leaves

Ichang papeda

another Ichang papeda

This one came from a rooted cutting.

The leaves on both Ichang papeda plants have turned a very pale yellowish color.
They did this after the last winter too, but were later able to start putting out some new leaf growth at the start of June.

Dunstan citrumelo

Looks moderately okay. Leaves are still green but a little bit of a yellowish hue. The leaves will probably start to green up more later into the year.
I notice the trunk has gotten thicker than it was last year, so it is getting bigger.


This one is on rootstock.

Changsha mandarin

Leaves look a yellowish hue of green. This one is in a very protected location, so I'm surprised the leaves don't look more of a healthy color.

Keraji mandarin


Both the Keraji and Bloomsweet were covered with a paper grocery bag, with a one gallon water container up against them inside, just during the several coldest days of winter in mid February. They are also planted in an optimal location, not too far from the house, on the south-facing side.
You will notice the leaves on both look a surprising dark green color, a good sign because normally the leaves turn yellowish from the cold.

All pictures taken April 1, 2021
Olympia, WA, climate zone 8a

The plants are not too big, most of them I would say are around a foot and half tall, some more or less.

This might help give some of you a better idea of how these different varieties do in the Pacific Northwest climate.

The outer peel and inner white pith of a citron is much more tender and less bitter than lemon, so much so that one can reasonably eat them. The peel is not entirely without bitterness but just has a much higher degree of edibility than a lemon peel.
The inner pith doesn't have any bitterness and is even very slightly sweet (though bland), which is a good thing because citrons tend to have a very thick layer of pith. This is in contrast to something like a grapefruit where the bitterness is concentrated in the pith and one generally wants to make sure they don't eat it, and makes extra effort to pull away the pith from all the segments.
I still don't think most people would enjoy eating a citron out of hand like an apple, but it is not impossible to do so, if one enjoys sour things.

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