Author Topic: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross  (Read 3259 times)

Till

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2020, 02:35:09 PM »
You read it everywhere that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda. But genetic studies are not in favor of that constantly repeated supposition. I have an article in mind that demonstrated that Yuzu is not directly related to C. ichangensis but to an unknown Papeda that does probably not exist any more, which is at least not known today to any citrus expert. I try to remember the article. It was not on Yuzu but on the genetic relationship of Citrus in general. Perhaps I remember. Then I can post it here.

Ilya11

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2020, 05:19:30 PM »
Here it is: link
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SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2020, 04:31:06 AM »
You read it everywhere that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda. But genetic studies are not in favor of that constantly repeated supposition.
It is not known for certain how Yuzu originated, but genetic studies do confirm that Yuzu is closely related to Ichang papeda; it is just not known with certainty exactly how.

It's not even really known/agreed whether Yuzu should constitute its own species or came about as the result of hybridization.
There are some records from ancient times of citrus grown fairly far north near the Yangtze river, where citrus does not normally grow, but due to the ambiguities in the Chinese language, we cannot be sure exactly what type of modern variety those fruits would correlate to. They might not have had separate words for the two.

One possibility, sometimes separate species can evolve with genetic introgression from another species. This basically means there's a genetic pool of many separate individuals, and gradually over time, genes from an outside species enter into that gene pool, through many separate individual hybridization events, over many generations.

I don't want to get too much into this topic here, however.

Till

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2020, 05:25:47 AM »
Thank you, Ilya. For those who do not want to read too much, just look for the headline "Origins of C. ichangensis and other acid citrus varieties" in the article. Interesting also what it states about Ichang Lemon.

If someone wants to create new hybrids the exact genetic relationships of different species can often be ignored when you just look at the results of antient hybridization events and take them as they are. I think, however, that such a practical and somewhat superficial approach should keep us away from too much speculation. The motto "just try!" is good, often perhaps the only think we can do. But we should then not be disappointed when we don't get what we wanted if our plans and wishes were based on wrong assumptions about the nature of the parent species we used.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2020, 07:50:22 PM »
I am content to regard Yuzu as most likely having arisen from hybridization between Ichang papeda and sour mandarin or mandarin, probably not from a single hybridization event.

There may have been a cross between the two, and after that the offspring got propagated from seed, so there was further genetic mix-up.
In the initial cross, Ichang papeda probably would have been the female parent. The genetic marker studies show that Yuzu shares a much closer affinity to Ichang papeda than to mandarin.

"Sour mandarin" may be a sub-species of mandarin, kind of like a wild mandarin type, originally native to China.
Or it may be possible "sour mandarin" actually came from the regular species of mandarin but just with a little bit of Ichang papeda-type genes mixed in.

(If you look at the Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, article, Citrus sunki seems to stand out as the only near pure mandarin with some additional few genes like C. ichangensis or C. medica, probably the former)

If that is the case, then it may be of little meaning whether the ancestry came from sour mandarin or mandarin. And it is also of course a possibility sour mandarin may have ultimately arisen from Yuzu, rather than the other way around. Or even no direct parental relationship.

None of this is fact, it is informed speculation, an attempt to try to fit together the pieces.

We don't know if this hybridization resulted naturally, or came about as a result of human activity.

I will quote a source here:

" Swingle and Reece (1967) noted that: […] hybrids that show astonishing similarity to the Yuzu have now been produced in this country between the Ichang papeda and the satsuma orange (a form of C. reticulata ). "

https://idtools.org/id/citrus/citrusid/factsheet.php?name=Yuzu

Which lends some support to the hybridization theory.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2021, 06:19:22 PM »
I don't understand it. Once again, it looks like Yuzu is recovering better and more vigorously than Ichang papeda. I have two Ichang papeda plants and several Yuzu, both on rootstock and on their own roots, planted in ground, and the Yuzu are all beginning to leaf out right now, while the Ichang papeda have no new leaf buds and look rather pale and very yellow-greenish in hue, both the leaves and stems. This seems to be an indicator to me that Ichang papeda, or at least this ascension of Ichang papeda, is not as cold resistant here, although I can't really say that for sure, since this is not talking about actual survival.
This is in the Pacific Northwest climate, zone 8a.

I don't understand why Yuzu seems to be doing so much better here than Ichang papeda. All the sources say that Ichang papeda is supposed to be more hardy. (And yes, I am aware what the distinctive shape looks like of the leaves of Ichang papeda. This is Ichang papeda)

Citradia

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2021, 06:44:28 PM »
My seedlings from ichang papeda fruits have not proven to be as hardy as trifoliate hybrids. I thought that it was supposed to be hardy to 0 degrees according to Tom McClendon’s Hardy Citrus for the Southeast book. I had a really warm winter this year with temps getting above freezing every day and I lost two more three year old seedlings and one suffered minor damage with only being protected by plastic sheeting cover a few nights this winter. I’m done trying to grow papeda here. I have one yuzu but it will be protected like a satsuma here when I plant it in ground. I lost a seedling yuzu years ago when I tried protecting with only frost cloth.

Florian

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2021, 02:02:20 AM »
My seedlings from ichang papeda fruits have not proven to be as hardy as trifoliate hybrids. I thought that it was supposed to be hardy to 0 degrees according to Tom McClendon’s Hardy Citrus for the Southeast book. I had a really warm winter this year with temps getting above freezing every day and I lost two more three year old seedlings and one suffered minor damage with only being protected by plastic sheeting cover a few nights this winter. I’m done trying to grow papeda here. I have one yuzu but it will be protected like a satsuma here when I plant it in ground. I lost a seedling yuzu years ago when I tried protecting with only frost cloth.

Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..

Ilya11

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2021, 03:29:44 AM »
Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..

Partially agree with you, my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret , its hardiness depends on more factors than that of poncirus. But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
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SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2021, 07:53:39 PM »
my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret ... But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Just to point out, there is one picture of a C. ichangensis in Germany zone 8a here:
"Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland"
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=30863.0

But it does seem to be in the middle of a residential suburban neighborhood, which may be having an effect on temperatures.

Florian

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2021, 04:47:23 PM »
my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret ... But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Just to point out, there is one picture of a C. ichangensis in Germany zone 8a here:
"Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland"
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=30863.0

But it does seem to be in the middle of a residential suburban neighborhood, which may be having an effect on temperatures.

I know the guy and it is a seed-grown plant. It is by far the best ichangensis I have ever tasted (he sent me some fruit last year). They are early-ripening, seedless and easy to peel. Also, he says the plant is very coldhardy.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2021, 07:09:58 AM »
Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..

Partially agree with you, my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret , its hardiness depends on more factors than that of poncirus. But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.

Ilya.
I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 07:11:54 AM by Zitrusgaertner »

Ilya11

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2021, 10:35:29 AM »
A very nice plant Robert. Does it give already the fruits?
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Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2021, 03:06:26 PM »
Not this plant but its sibling. I have a second plant in pot it started blooming four years ago.

mikkel

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2021, 04:51:51 PM »
@Zitrusgaertner Bernhard Voss has an Ichang Papeda at a similiar size of yours. And hardy since years.
Where did you get your plant from?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2021, 06:05:52 PM »
I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
You say you are in Vienna, zone 7b.
Do you think you might be in a part of the city that is actually more like 8a ?
Thank you for sharing the picture and information about your Ichang papeda growing there.

I wonder why my Ichang papedas don't appear to be looking as hardy. Maybe what I have is a different cultivar of Ichang papeda that is not as hardy? Maybe something about the climate here, with its wet winters and lack of heat in the early part of the year?


One additional piece of evidence that points to Yuzu being more likely to be a hybrid is that it is always full of many seeds, and most of those seeds are nucellar, whereas Ichang papeda often seems to have almost no seeds, presumably due to not being pollinated by a different variety, and I think the seeds in Ichang papeda are zygotic.
Typically hybridization (between different species) often results in that sort of situation.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 04:32:19 AM »
@Zitrusgaertner Bernhard Voss has an Ichang Papeda at a similiar size of yours. And hardy since years.
Where did you get your plant from?
The seeds came from Bernhard Voss, as far as I can remember. He told me that IVIA would not be very hardy. I kept the young seedlings in the open ground for 3 years. Together with a craftet "very hardy" ichangensis that came from Bernhard. In the first winter the "hardy" C. ichangensis (he tagged it 5*) died and all IVIA seedlings and a few seedlings of another cultivar survived with some damage from winter sun and frost. After three years one or two plants bloomed. I had to repot these plants and some time later planted one of them in ground again and kept another in a container. The latter one bloomed after three or four years. Typival IVIA-fruit. I have a crafted IVIA fom ADAVO aswell. The one from ADAVO had a lot of seeds the fruits of my seedling none.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2021, 04:42:44 AM »
I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
You say you are in Vienna, zone 7b.
Do you think you might be in a part of the city that is actually more like 8a ?
Thank you for sharing the picture and information about your Ichang papeda growing there.

I wonder why my Ichang papedas don't appear to be looking as hardy. Maybe what I have is a different cultivar of Ichang papeda that is not as hardy? Maybe something about the climate here, with its wet winters and lack of heat in the early part of the year?


One additional piece of evidence that points to Yuzu being more likely to be a hybrid is that it is always full of many seeds, and most of those seeds are nucellar, whereas Ichang papeda often seems to have almost no seeds, presumably due to not being pollinated by a different variety, and I think the seeds in Ichang papeda are zygotic.
Typically hybridization (between different species) often results in that sort of situation.

My part of Vienna (north of river Danube) is hot and dry. Zone 8a at least. Tmin in the last 5 years -10°C The point is sun protection on clear winter days. Ichangensis is in a shady place. Therefore it does better than Citrumelo. All my outdoor-plants had to take -14° six years ago. Ichangensis lost 2/3 of its leaves but no branches as far as I remember. Citrumelo had severe bark-cracks and die-back of 1/3 of its branches. US812 was not very impressed and showed only minor loss of little twigs. Prag was not harmed at all. So C. ichangensis IVIA (F2) is one of my most hardy citrus in open ground. And it is on its own roots. I will test it as rootstock for Yuzu.