Author Topic: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross  (Read 3156 times)

lavender87

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Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: September 21, 2019, 12:53:03 PM »
  Was there such a tree exited? Will this hybrid significantly decry the quality?

  I know the Ichang Papeda fruit is itself a low quality citrus fruit, but yuzu has many uses in culinary field.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 03:08:57 PM by lavender87 »

Millet

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2019, 02:07:00 PM »
Well if you think there is any  quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.

lavender87

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2019, 03:04:05 PM »
Well if you think there is any  quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.

 :-\? I thought yuzu is famous for its uses in many cuisines. I was thinking of seedless yuzu. I read a few posts about seedless yuzu available in Japan, but it seems to be impossible to find in the US. Some opinions also claimed that seedless yuzu in Japan is not as good as the orginal yuzu interm of fragrances. I knew there are at least several varieties of seedless Ichang Papeda in both Europe and the US, so I came up with an idea of crossing yuzu with Ichang Papeda to test my luck of finding a high quality seedless yuzu.

  I am not so sure whether or not a seedless citrus mother or father would transfer his/her seedless character to off-springs.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 03:06:04 PM by lavender87 »

Millet

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2019, 04:08:41 PM »
It is always worth a try.  Many advances in citrus have been achieved by trying.

lebmung

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2019, 06:25:21 PM »
Well if you think there is any  quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.

 :-\? I thought yuzu is famous for its uses in many cuisines. I was thinking of seedless yuzu. I read a few posts about seedless yuzu available in Japan, but it seems to be impossible to find in the US. Some opinions also claimed that seedless yuzu in Japan is not as good as the orginal yuzu interm of fragrances. I knew there are at least several varieties of seedless Ichang Papeda in both Europe and the US, so I came up with an idea of crossing yuzu with Ichang Papeda to test my luck of finding a high quality seedless yuzu.

  I am not so sure whether or not a seedless citrus mother or father would transfer his/her seedless character to off-springs.

there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.

Huyen Linh Ho

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2019, 09:15:27 PM »
there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.

  Thanks, it is good to know it. Is it as hardy as yuzu? Is it seedless.

  I at first just aim for the leaf taste, but then curious about seedless yuzu. I am working on it now. It might take several years, but it is fun to try.

Oolie

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 02:05:58 AM »
One technique to create a seedless citrus is by selecting for a triploid.

There's an old thread on the forums about determining ploidy in citrus.

Ilya11

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2019, 04:04:51 AM »
I am trying to do this for three years, approximately 5% of Yuzu seeds are small enough to be compatible with triploids. But these seedlings are growing rather slowly.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2019, 09:19:54 AM »
I am trying to do this for three years, approximately 5% of Yuzu seeds are small enough to be compatible with triploids. But these seedlings are growing rather slowly.

  Amazing, I wish you luck on your project. I think if we graft an extra rootstock to the existing slow growing yuzu seedling, it might force it to grow faster. Some types of fertilizer do help sometimes to boost growth in early stages. We can also collect scionwood after the seedling is older than 1 year old and try to graft it on a vigorously matured rootstock to boost growth.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2019, 01:33:05 PM »
there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.
It might be a hybrid of ichangensis, we're not exactly sure. Its cold hardiness hasn't been tested.
There is another thread started about it, for further discussion.

mikkel

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2019, 02:47:33 PM »

Sylvain

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2019, 04:57:56 AM »
Very funny! This site (http://birds.songs.free.fr) is a place where I put my dwaft version of my sites before I release them.
This version of Citrus Pages is deprecated.
The right place is now http://citruspages.free.fr
It still not includes the genealogy that was discovered by DNA analyses. You might not use Citrus Page to define ancestry of citrus.
Next winter I shall update the site with the recent data.

mikkel

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 05:40:41 AM »
I`ve found both webadresses via google but there is nothing to be seen that one is just a draft and the other the proper one.
But good to know.
The point is that there is contradicting information on the web than the personal preferencies of Liudmilla descendence by some forum member.
Which proofs nothing other than there are different statements.
As long as there is no link to an scientific paper it is just a statement.
That is what I wanted to point out.

Btw I don`t care about descendency. It is nice to know but I can`t see any advantage in this knowledge which helps me. Might be different for others of course.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2019, 01:33:25 PM »
Here's the thread that contains all the information about Liudmila I was able to compile together.
" ichangensis x Satsuma ? " http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31947.msg351168#msg351168

For some reason the thread doesn't appear in a search when I type in "Liudmila", so it's probably best I share the link here.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2020, 05:05:43 PM »
I don't know if this is relevant here, but I just want to let everyone know I've tasted Yuzu and Ichang papeda, both picked fresh off the tree.
The peel of both fruits is soft and moderately edible, more edible than the peel of a lemon. In my opinion, the peel of the fruits could easily be used in cooking, especially if it was cut up into small enough pieces.
Yuzu and Ichang papeda are very similar in a way, but whereas Yuzu has a much more sour orange/mandarin type of flavor, Ichang papeda is much more lemon/citron like in flavor, maybe lime and Kaffir lime nuances as well. But they both have a little bit of deep pungency to them. Yuzu also has a bit of spiciness to its pungency.
I would say Yuzu clearly has the better quality of flavor of the two, and while Ichang papeda could potentially be used for culinary uses, it is indisputably inferior to a normal lemon or lime.
Yuzu also is completely packed with seeds, whereas Ichang papeda seems to have very few to no seeds.
(The peel of Ichang papeda might be slightly softer than Yuzu, but its peel also has a slight lemon skunkiness that I would say slightly more than negates this attribute. I would say the peel is about comparable to something like a mandarinquat or calamondin)

Yuzu and Ichang papeda are believed to be closely related to each other, but it is not known for sure exactly how. Most probably, Yuzu originated from hybridization between Ichang papeda and a mandarin. They both seem to have originated from near the same area of China.
(Changsha mandarin is another one that seems to have some relation to this group, although more distant)

Laaz

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2020, 08:12:18 PM »
Lol Charlie. Long ago I asked Gene about this citrus. He said it was nothing more than a oddity.& did not recommend it. I passed...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 09:00:19 PM by Laaz »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2020, 11:54:24 PM »
Lol Charlie. Long ago I asked Gene about this citrus. He said it was nothing more than a oddity.& did not recommend it. I passed...
Laaz, you don't even like Yuzu, so clearly you wouldn't like Ichang papeda.
(You told us before you cut down your trees because you were disappointed)

I agree it's certainly true Ichang papeda is an oddity and would not be a recommended variety in zone 9, and maybe even 8b, but it is one of the few things that can grow well outside unprotected in the colder parts of zone 8 in cooler more northerly climates, or possibly even the warmest part of zone 7 in the US South.
I do believe that's what we're talking about here.

Where you are, you don't have to worry about truly cold hardy citrus.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 11:59:27 PM by SoCal2warm »

Walt

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2020, 01:05:58 PM »
Seedless Kishu mandarin is pollen fertile and 50% of its seedlings are seedless.  This is not from my own experience, but is from an online journal paper.

911311

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2020, 10:43:22 AM »

I agree it's certainly true Ichang papeda is an oddity and would not be a recommended variety in zone 9, and maybe even 8b, but it is one of the few things that can grow well outside unprotected in the colder parts of zone 8 in cooler more northerly climates, or possibly even the warmest part of zone 7 in the US South.


 My ichang papdea leaves just turn slightly yellow with loads of small yellow spots after the temperature dropped down to 37 while my yuzu seedling was still doing great. My Harvey lemon also did not show clear signs of suffering in its leaves, and its leaves were still vigorous though the tree stopped flushing with any new bud.

  I brought my ichang papeda inside because I did not want to lose its flower buds. I left my yuzu seedling outside last year and it lost all it leaves but survived without any damage. I personally think that ichang padepa would be less cold tolerant than yuzu, and if this assumption is true, it surprises me. 

  I live in zone 8a.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 10:45:41 AM by 911311 »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2020, 06:35:58 PM »
I left my yuzu seedling outside last year and it lost all it leaves but survived without any damage. I personally think that ichang padepa would be less cold tolerant than yuzu, and if this assumption is true, it surprises me. 

  I live in zone 8a.
Well, at least from what I've personally observed in the climate here, at least only going by how the leaves behave, it does seem like Ichang papeda is significantly less hardy than Yuzu.
This seems very surprising to me also.

I'm in zone 8a, but much farther north than you, in the Pacific Northwest (Olympia, WA), long period of cold and wet.

The leaves on the Ichang papeda all turn very pale and yellowish, with only the slightest hint of green. About half of the leaves fell off last year, and the other half eventually started slowly regaining a little bit of their color late into the year after temperatures had long since warmed up, but they never seemed to fully recover, and those leaves still looked yellowish and not the deepest shade of green, while the new leaves of that year looked better.
The Yuzu held onto all of its leaves last year, and they did seem to recover most of their color the next year. The year before that, during a very cold winter, the Yuzu may have lost about 30% of its leaves, but even then the other leaves that survived through winter later recovered.
I have not had the chance to observe bark damage on Ichang papeda yet to see if it is hardier than Yuzu in that way. Neither the Yuzu nor Ichang papeda suffered any bark damage or branch die-back this year, though the previous year the Yuzu did a little bit. (But the Ichang papeda was not in the ground yet that winter)

I have seen a big Ichang papeda tree 2 hours south of here in Portland, but it was right up against a visitor center building, and being near a big city might be preventing temperatures from going as low. And it was also planted in a spot well protected from wind. It's leaves probably looked similar to my Yuzu. But bigger trees often seem to display more cold hardiness, and it was a big tree.
The point is, I can't really say for sure that Yuzu is more cold tolerant than Ichang papeda.

I'm growing 4 Yuzu plants outside and 3 Ichang papeda, one in a container. So these are not just single plants I am talking about.
The Yuzu that were grown from seedlings growing on their own roots still appear to be doing better than my Ichang papeda.

Sorry to make this so complicated, but I am trying to give all the relevant details in case anyone wanted them.

I am thinking it might still be possible than Ichang papeda could be able to survive more absolute low temperatures, but maybe just does not do as well in cold overall.

Another possible contributing factor might be that Ichang papeda's roots might not be as tolerant to high levels of moisture during the winter, which might be making its leaves look more yellow than the temperatures alone would cause it to look. The climate here does have wet winters, whereas its native climate in China has drier winters.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2020, 06:46:53 PM »
Another reason that Ichang papeda could be more desirable in crosses is that it is more "lemon-like", whereas Yuzu is a little bit more "orange-like" than Ichang papeda, in both color and flavor. Even though Yuzu overall does have slightly better flavor and fruit quality, in the case of someone trying to breed a cold hardy "lemon", Ichang papeda might help give something closer to what is being desired.
For sweeter more orange-like fruit, Yuzu may be the better one to use in crosses.

Although I have to say, my Clementine x Yuzu hybrid is not doing too great here. Definitely still technically alive, but it has not managed to put out any new leaves since the very cold winter 2 years ago. Although it has tried to send out leaf buds both years. This year it managed to put out a little bit more than 1cm of green growth on one of the buds.
For hybrids like this, it might require another backcross to get something more cold hardy. There could be useful recessive genes still in there, that just will not be able to express themselves until another generation of crossing.

911311

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2020, 12:55:05 AM »
Thanks Socal for your extremely detailed description. It is very helpful and enjoyable.

  I just thought of a reason explaining why the ichang papeda displayed more leaf damage than the yuzu did. Perhaps ichang papeda responds better to cold weather than yuzu, so it went through some internal chemical changes to signal the leaves to turn yellow and probably prepared for falling off to conserve energy. A good example of this is Poncirus Trifoliata which will drop all its leaves at a temperature below 50F. If this hypothesis is true then ichange papdea is absolutely more cold tolerant than yuzu. We might need more observation to come to a final conclusion.

  I am guessing that a citrus variety which has leaves most sensitive to cold weather could be least suffered bark damage.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2020, 05:31:11 PM »
  I just thought of a reason explaining why the ichang papeda displayed more leaf damage than the yuzu did. Perhaps ichang papeda responds better to cold weather than yuzu, so it went through some internal chemical changes to signal the leaves to turn yellow and probably prepared for falling off to conserve energy. A good example of this is Poncirus Trifoliata which will drop all its leaves at a temperature below 50F. If this hypothesis is true then ichange papdea is absolutely more cold tolerant than yuzu.
This thought had occurred to me as well, as a possibility. However, I noticed that the color of the branches looks similar to the color of the leaves.

I also noticed that the small Ichang papeda plants did not seem to handle temperature changes well, between day and night. What I mean is that the Ichang papeda started putting on new leaf growth at the same time as Yuzu, and initially the leaves looked a very dark healthy color, but eventually as the leaves grew to full size they started appearing a little bit more of a paler color. Still functional but did not look as healthy as Yuzu. 
Keep in mind they didn't really begin putting out leaf growth until the start of June, so this (leaf yellowing) might have been around June 25 to June 30. We can still get fairly cold nights in late June (not freezing of course), and I think the citrus may not respond well to the big temperature swings between night and day. Consistently warm nights don't really begin until July here.

(Interestingly the winter mostly doesn't have as big temperature fluctuations between night and day, because it is so wet at that time in this climate)

It could of course be that Ichang papeda grows better in some other climate further south. I don't know. (I'm at 47 degrees latitude here, so the temperatures for most of the year are much cooler)

As I have said before, there was an anecdotal report of a lemon tree (presumably Ichang papeda but I cannot be sure, they did post a picture of a bowl of the fruit though and said it was edible), doing very well and bountifully fruiting in inland North Carolina on the border between zone 8a and 7b.

Maybe they just need a longer period of heat to be able to put on some growth, because I've noticed Ichang papeda is much more of a slower grower and less vigorous growing than Yuzu (though not a weaker grower, you can tell the plant has plenty enough energy, it just does not want to grow very fast).


One last possibility I considered is it could be possible the roots of Ichang papeda just more easily go into dormancy, and that this climate is just not cold enough to force Poncirus trifoliata and some of its hybrids into a similar state of dormancy. (My poncirus hybrids do not seem to loose their leaves over the winter in this climate, even though poncirus is supposed to be deciduous). Maybe someone growing Poncirus trifoliata in a climate like zone 6 could tell us if the smaller branches start becoming very pale and yellowish by February.
The roots going into dormancy would stop the flow of iron and result in a temporary nutrient deficiency that would turn the plant more of a yellow color. I see this in my hardy gardenias, and they are later able to recover their color just fine.

I know this is all complicated and there are many different thoughts, and different possibilities here.

I think the only way to be sure is to continue to grow them for several years, and to see how they grow, and watch for any bark damage following particularly cold winters.
And to get reports from people growing Ichang papeda in different climates.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 06:06:58 PM by SoCal2warm »

911311

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2020, 06:57:03 PM »
Thank Socal2warm for sharing your experience in a very detailed manner.


SoCal2warm

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Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2020, 07:30:10 PM »
Will this hybrid significantly decry the quality?

  I know the Ichang Papeda fruit is itself a low quality citrus fruit, but yuzu has many uses in culinary field.
Well, I would maybe put it to you this way: Yuzu fruit isn't that high quality, and Ichang papeda isn't too low quality.

Let's imagine hypothetically that the only citrus in existence was Ichang papeda, and let's say you were wondering whether people would buy it if it was sold at the market. I personally believe about half the population in society would buy them, and half the population wouldn't, thinking they were not worth the trouble. Hopefully maybe that gives you some idea of their level of eating quality.
It would of course not be a fruit for eating out of hand. (Just as most people do not eat lemons like they would an orange)

In at least some ways Yuzu and Ichang papeda are actually very similar. They are closely related to each other, after all.
I don't think crossing them would reduce the fruit quality all that much, although there would be some noticeable reduction in fruit quality.

The peel of Ichang papeda is actually very slightly more soft and edible than Yuzu, although the difference is not really all that much. Although the peel of Ichang papeda is also very slightly skunkier with slightly worse flavor. Yuzu do not really have the most juice, but Ichang papeda has an even lesser amount of juice. I would definitely say the difference in this is not big, only moderate.

Let's also remember there are a few people who think that even Yuzu is a "worthless" fruit, so I think much of this here may be the subject of personal preference and human opinion.

Maybe I would say that the quality of Yuzu is very slightly better than so-so and the quality of Ichang papeda is very slightly worse than so-so (mediocre).

Yuzu certainly has plenty of great culinary uses, and I believe Ichang papeda could find culinary uses if you really wanted, but it would be a little bit forced and not optimal.

The quality of Ichang papeda is not terrible at all, it's just not all that great either.

I am actually snacking on an Ichang papeda right now that I had kept in the refrigerator, as I write this. (I promise I am not making that up) So my description here is not just from memory.
It almost does taste very peculiarly Yuzu-like, in a way. I mean I taste a certain, very slight skunky, deep pungentness in the peel.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 07:44:41 PM by SoCal2warm »