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Messages - Francis_Eric

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I cassine is dahoon  Holly

There is proof Yaupon leaves that contain caffeine were traded all the way from the south to Near central IL. (by saint Louis MO about 10 miles East) (at bottom of this post see image of Illex vomitica / I. cassine )


-Chemical analyses of organic residues in fragments of pottery from the large site of Cahokia and surrounding smaller sites in Illinois reveal theobromine, caffeine, and ursolic acid, biomarkers for species of Ilex (holly) used to prepare the ritually important Black Drink. As recorded during the historic period, men consumed Black Drink in portions of the American Southeast for ritual purification. This first demonstrated discovery of biomarkers for Ilex occurs in beaker vessels dating between A.D. 1050 and 1250 from Cahokia, located far north of the known range of the holly species used to prepare Black Drink during historic times. The association of Ilex and beaker vessels indicates a sustained ritual consumption of a caffeine-laced drink made from the leaves of plants grown in the southern United States.

Edit I have a few things on it
there are some people in Texas going around, and removing for the land owners
to sell tea (I have links if anyone is interested, but need to dig for them. )

The wood is pretty as well it's like pure white, and curls like horns.

Rex see Here
some said taste like grass
Not when smoked
Just had some Commercial stuff like that
(around same time someone gave me a sip of 150 buck tequila with same flavor )

I sent a message Rispa (I may try my hand at cuttings or air layer , but it's late in season  )

I would also take scion in winter

The one I have fruits early a little , but mostly later on as well

I found another later one or 2
(easy to ride a bicycle while others ripen ,
 and see the non ripe white berries since they stand out.)

If we could selective breed for them to ripen in October that would be nice
(trap crop as well to draw animals from other crops)

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« on: July 30, 2022, 01:24:18 AM »

 2 selections of Romaina ‘Vitroplant 2’ and ‘Vitroplant 3

(random from after searching Asimina )

I have a few more new cultivars over seas just do not want to dig them up now.

Going through these I saw your post

I only read some of the abstract but cannot see more

I thought I'd post this to it as well (you need to browse site to get used to it mostly nice pictures as well..)

 Welcome to The Annonaceae of Africa

 --(see next post on new classification of Annonaceae of Africa )

(thanks for the link when I have time I will look it over probably too much for me as well.)

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Mulberry varieties
« on: July 29, 2022, 03:25:18 AM »
I am out looking for wild mulberries in ChicagoLAND area (we get -20F or -28 C) deja vu

Just outside The airport (Midway /BNSF train (home ) I found a wild sour one , but not sure if fully ripe (they looked like it)

I do have some wild ones (white hybridized with our native red)

They fruit later in Mid August (not early July or mid July ) (I am looking for such on forum as well.)

Ever think of trading pollen ?

Keep in Mind (Morus) Mulberries also have disease you do not hear about
Pop corn Disease on fruit & others on twigs ...

Thank you  :)

I haven't been able to taste fruit of all varieties yet, but of most in my collection.

My favorite so far is the variety "Saharanpur".
They are incredibly sweet and have no acidity,
the aroma is very reminiscent of peach and Greengages, especially the cultivar "Große Grüne Reneklode".

But most mulberries have a very good taste for me, the diversity in taste is a very nice thing.

I see you like sweet all the ones around are just sweet
I was looking more for a sour flavor ?

If they dry on the tree that is one characteristic I am looking for as well
(that is different for different uses ) -- I may have one(and seeds) , but it's new to me so not sure yet

Hi I am hoping some forgers here are looking for late mulberries or any other unique quality ?

These can also be used for a trap crop to ward off birds to other crops as well..

Most mulberries I see around here are just sweetish , but found some sour ones (red/ white hybrids)
Some outside the airport (midway In Chicago or right by Cicero Metra BNSF Train stop)

Yield doesn't seem to heavy but May be a down year (like one wild very  heavy bearing one here)

OH I got some banana vinegar as well

Wish I had more time
(this all may go in one or 2 jars)

(I use the spend grape pulp of a 16 Ounce salsa jar,
and I may culture a large volume from 15 pounds of spend grape pulp (or (grape) must a wine term)

(of coarse the spent Fry red Muscadine pulp ( white carlos supernonog)
 will what I am guessing make about a half gallon of vinegar each )

I think this will be good to soak these (If I can freeze some before I leave)


In a bit of a hurry

just picked some sow thistle pods (didn’t plan on it I am busy)

The jar I have here says soaked in Citrus acid

I do have acid blend for vinification (wine making) ( tartaric /malic / citrus )
I may try lemon juice , and white wine vinegar (or balsamic vinegar)

(I do have a few table spoons Red muscadine vinegar,
but that is too small the pulp is good in miso soup though (the Umami taste)
(I use the spend grape pulp of a 16 Ounce salsa jar,
and I may culture a large volume from 15 pounds of spend grape pulp (or (grape) must a wine term)

Maybe I can freeze some sow thistle buds and try later

(Note I used small buds I did not realize he used bigger
(like I said did not plan on picking (or re reading article  in a hurry)

See he recommends used pickle juice
My capers in fridge store bought are soaked in citrus acid

So I may try some variations (see below post )

Copied from Forging Texas (not my photo)
(note my buds are smaller (if I have time I may grab some larger ones, and do trials )

Tropical Vegetables and Other Edibles / Re: Taro ID Question
« on: July 14, 2022, 11:59:07 AM »
I am interested to know how long to cook these leaves?

Are these containing Calcium oxalate ?

Actually it is the first Home made wine I drank
My Next door neighbor is a older Dead Head  I knew since a Teenager
After she Moved She called up Her (A associate for business ) , and smeared Mulberry all over her Neck in her dim lit (long) driveway

He went screaming Thinking She's dead .

(she laughed when she told me , (I also dropped the 5 gallon jug of wine it was strong )

(note I do have my wine to age a year or so , but when getting large amounts in multiple 5 gallon batches I sometimes indulge Mulberry wine ages or mellows more quick maybe it is the high levels of malic acid (sharp acid found in Apples ) I do not I just know it mellows faster then most.)

(I also like flavor , her wine smelled scary at first, but actually I was surprised it tasted good , but very light (on taste) tasting )
 it was not really aged , but tasted smooth (not hot burning sensation  like vodka immature wines are known for ,
 but at the time (I didn't know anything about wine -- just the smell needed some time to mellow)

Hi I am hoping some forgers here are looking for late mulberries or any other unique quality ?

Also would like to see dry type fruit
Freeze dried a little unripe mulberries should be the next best thing

I may have a Species that dries like that (at least I have whole fruit dried ,
but have to monitor the tree to be certain
 (not a quality people want , but I do for other uses),
 ---> and have seeds of whole fruit dried the amount of  a sandwich zip lock bag full. )

Surprised no one else is forging for wild mulberries ?

I throw a rope over the tree, and shake them onto a tarp
but if you tie a heavy stick onto the rope make sure it doesn't come back, and hit you , but kind of exciting.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: July 14, 2022, 09:46:37 AM »
Joe real Not a lot of room , but do you ever consider Selling seeds from that tree ?

I would like to plant any seeds to see any natural crosses
If I had a lot of land I'd still want to, but go a route with grafting as well.

I have a place where I can plant these seeds out
(I could sign anything to give credit where it's due , and trade back cuttings )

You did say you may want certain plums Even if you decide not to send seed
 I may have Prunus viriniania (and another that looks similar, but have not identified)
As well as some of our native plums (juicy melting gel inside thicker skin)

 (I quote )

Still wanting to add P. pumila var besseyi (Sand Cherry), P. pumila x salicina (Sand Cherry hybrid), P. salicifolia (Capulin Cherry), P. sibirica (Siberian apricot), P. cocomilia (Italian plum), P. subcordata (Klamath, Oregon, or Sierra plum), P. umbellata (Hog plum), P. salicina x domestica (Stoneless plums),P. virginiana (Choke Cherry), P. canadensis (Canadian Choke Cherry), P. canadensis x salicina (Choke Cherry hybrid) and other Prunus species that I could find and test for compatibility. Some of these I have previously grafted and failed, so I am trying out various interstems in order to successfully add them. It's not a trial and error, but trials until successful!

Oops I wrote that all wrong it's misleading (sorry about that)

A big difference between Oxalate , and calcium oxalate
(which make your mouth tingle like fiber glass , and if High enough concentrations could swell your throat so you couldn't breath )

Drinking tea or eating kale is not going to do that with just oxalate in it

(quote from Forging Texas )

The sweet, grape-flavored berries are ripe when they are black. Leave the spotted pink and purple berries to ripen more. Though delicious, most people get a weird tickle in the back of their throat after eating one or more berries. This tickle is actually due to tiny needles of calcium oxalate which are defensive measure of the Peppervine. Excessive consumption of calcium oxalate will result in chemical burns in your throat.

I was wondering about processing taro root

It interests me

I want to process Skunk Cabbage
(I could just do it , but am interested in a through process of taro )

I do not add any (chalk) Calcium carbonate (it's tums) to drop that acid like some recipes

Here is that Jack Keller Wine recipe

I also suggest like mentioned keeping the oxalic acid in (and 9 percent ABV ), but never tried without oxalic
(and not the best Idea to bottle in gallon bottles or 3 litre bottles if you may drink it in one sitting through out the day

Also I would not want to cause hysteria about Rhubarb
(just do not eat or drink 6 pounds at a time , and if you do foolishly  double on calcium and vitamin b  since they get locked up)

 6-7 lbs red rhubarb
1-3/4 lbs finely granulated sugar
2 large lemons (juice only)
water to make up one gallon
1 crushed Campden tablet
1 oz precipitated chalk
1-1/2 tsp yeast nutrient
Sauterne wine yeast

About dropping out calcium Oxalate with cold

I know in wine if you put the wine from the 5 gallon carboy  (in vinification ) in cold it drops out the tartaric acid (in a month)
 which is mostly found in grapes (and tamarind) (but didn't think of it until now)

For Rhubarb Wine I believe (if I remember of 20 years)  rhubarb only has 0.08 mg Oxalate acid (per unknown amount)

I do not add any (chalk) Calcium carbonate (it's tums) to drop that acid like some recipes

That being said if you use 6 pounds per gallon do not drink the entire thing (you will be poisoned)

I make mine 9 percent one year I drank a half pint the entire summer on bike rides (also black tea separate ) it was so good
(from a 5 or 6 gallon jug of coarse protecting it from oxidization from the large batch )

Here is a quote from palmer edu (Wayne's word )
Also see PFAF

    I had just finished a lecture on the importance of calcium during
muscle contractions.  We were discussing how, if you do not get enough
calcium in your diet, your body will steal it from the bones.  A student
informed me that, while taking a nutrition class offered through the WIC
program (Women, Infant and Children), a person should not drink iced tea
while eating.  She was told that something in the iced tea interfered
with the absorption of calcium.  Has anyone out there heard of this?  If
so, what, exactly, in iced tea can block the absorption of calcium?

Thanks in advance for the input.

Steven Kish

It's presumably due to the oxalate content of tea, and probably immaterial whether it's iced tea or hot. Oxalate is a calcium- and magnesium-chelating agent that antagonizes absorption of these minerals. High-oxalate foods also promote kidney stone formation.

Some other foods also have a high oxalate content and should be avoided when one has a healing bone fracture. In milligrams of oxalate per 100 g of edible portion, these include cocoa powder (623), spinach (571), rhubarb (537), parsley (166), and beets (109).

Tea infusion has only 12.5 mg, which is modest by comparison to those but is still a lot more than coffee (1.0), beer (1.7), Beaujolais (3.1), or cow's milk (0.7). Ovaltine has a relatively high 45.9 mg/100 g powder. I suspect a nutritionist would equally advise against that.

(My source is "Oxalate and phytate in foods," Geigy Scientific Tables (8th ed., 1981), vol. 1, p. 265.)

If you google "tea oxalate" you'll see some Blackwell Synergy sites on this. I can't get into them tonight due to some kind of problem regarding my cookies that I have neither the time nor energy to try to resolve just now. (I know the "theoretical" solution to this, but I've tried adjusting my security settings and still have cookie problems with many sites. I can't even make an online Hertz car reservation from this computer because of this.)

Atcher service,

The leaves contain high concentrations of oxalic acid[34, 76]. Oxalic acid can lock up certain minerals (especially calcium) in the body, leading to nutritional deficiency. Cooking the plant will reduce the concentration of oxalic acid. Another report says that the leaves have the same concentration of oxalic acid in the stems as they do in the leaves and it is not the oxalic acid that makes them poisonous. It says that any toxic properties of the leaves is more likely to be due to the presence of glycosides[142]. People with a tendency to rheumatism, arthritis, gout, kidney stones or hyperacidity should take especial caution if including this plant in their diet since it can aggravate their condition[238].

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Going to FL…visit new people!
« on: July 13, 2022, 03:03:08 PM »
Ha ha Funny how google maps says it's about 50 minutes from the Amtrak station (st. pete)
via I-275 N
Heavy traffic, as usual

I think I will just wing this trip
(I may do a auction and try to cut my loses (high airline ticket ) maybe a pawn shop will have a guitar.

EDit Oh thanks for that
I may have to go by clear water anyways (if I remember correct )

So I may check that out (I guess I will check the department of natural resources (who knows maybe I will just go in the woods)

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Going to FL…visit new people!
« on: July 13, 2022, 02:29:50 PM »
jaboticaba 45

I am heading to Tampa FL. tomorrow

Not sure what to expect either

I had a slow computer (dis abled speakers re start/re installed speaker fixed it)
so no idea what area's to see (my brother has a Friend though )
(slow computer also cost me more to book ticket
(so I plan to buy a extra PC in Chicago so I do not waste higher airline booking fee's )

Anyone know of a good area that is more local (I do not like touristy area's )
or plant places in Tampa (where does amtrak go as well.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Help harvesting pawpaws!
« on: July 12, 2022, 05:10:02 PM »
There are a bunch of asimina parvifloras that I have been keeping an eye on. They are a smaller fruited pawpaw species. But I have no experience judging by skin color on when to harvest..? The fruit are just turning from green to very slightly off-green. Can I harvest in this stage and ripen the fruit? Will thy even ripen like this after being off the tree? I want to get them before the wild creatures do!

Also if anyone has experience with asimina incana as well. Thanks!

Any follow up ?

I plan to visit FL. for a week in a day or 2 (July 12th or 13th)
I also want to try harvesting some.

OH Not certain on A. parviflora

Are you smelling these or do they nit have a strong scent like pawpaw

What does woolly pawpaw feel like (like a peach or not)

I amnot certain I am too late (I can always make a phone call )but not heading by them on this trip.
but may call any ways to get a better idea 

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Blueberries from seed
« on: July 12, 2022, 04:45:10 PM »
Hi are you going to store in the fridge for cold stratification ?

I'd store for 3 months dry (I am pretty sure the are not needing moist soil to be stored or recalcitrant seed)
I am pretty sure they are orthodox seed (or stored dry)

dedicated to saving rare plant species from extinction. CPC's National Collection represents more than 2,000 of the world's rarest plants, maintained collectively by its valued network of Participating Institutions.

Center for Plant Conservation National Headquarters 15600 San Pasqual Valley Rd. Escondido, CA 92027-7000

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Giant African land snails
« on: July 08, 2022, 05:30:35 PM »

It doesn't say in the article but I remember these  Snails can be Hermaphrodite
So a male can screw itself if no Females are around to make offspring...

Oops it's called parthenogenetically (without a male)
 (coincidence cattle fever tick article after I posted Bovine does that apply to you? I'm wiry like the steer I Hope I do not have it )

This sites new to me
I just saw you could see new diseases as well
good to keep a eye out (I did discover thousand cankers (on Black walnut a while back )
I have not really checked the USDA though

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Giant African land snails
« on: July 08, 2022, 05:07:28 PM »
Above replies I agree all invasive lists are no good
Even some native plants like poison Ivy are listed as Invasive even on Governmental sites

Does anyone have information on this invasive species that may have been found in Florida

I was looking at Escargot (to eat snails) and saw this
You could select  Florida or your state
(I didn't put a direct link this might be good for others )

(Hungry pests)

(this is the article I saw it at if your interested I suppose a kid brought these in 1966,
and they spent a million over 10 years getting rid of them) (1 million in todays money or 1966 money?)

It doesn't say in the article but I remember these  Snails can be Hermaphrodite
So a male can screw itself if no Females are around to make offspring...

What is that Coconut Beetle never heard of it ?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Peaches and Plums in hot climates
« on: July 07, 2022, 03:10:37 AM »
You might find this information and this chart useful.  A chill hour is any hour under 45 degrees.,%20%2082%20%208%20more%20rows%20
And here is plum information.  It includes a map of Florida that shows chill hours, but that may be changing due to climate change (?).

For plums that last link is good

Maybe not Florida but GA

Southern plums

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