Graft compatibility of Black Sapote (D. nigra/digyna) & D. texana?

[drymifolia]

Does anyone know if these are compatible?

Couldn't find any reference to anyone trying. I've got a bunch of texana seedlings and eventually want to try to cross them with nigra, so I'd love if I could also use the extra seedlings as greenhouse rootstocks rather than having to grow or buy separate nigra rootstocks.

[elouicious]

why just rootstocks?

I think the fruit is quite good

[pagnr]

Diospyros is a very big genus, and the species occur in Australia, PNG, South Pacific, SE Asia, India, Africa, Americas off the top of my head.
There is a possibility that two species are closely related enough to be graft compatable, as well as the chance that they are not.
Some of the Australian Diospyros seem similar to D.kaki, and some quite different looking plants.
Kaki can graft to D.americana and D.lotus so cross species grafting is a possibility.
From what I have seen D.texana seems fairly different to D.nigra, but that may not mean they are not in the same sub group ?
Maybe it is worth the experiment ?
I have not heard of D.texana being used as a rootstock for D.kaki, which would seem a useful combo in some areas ?
I believe there are also other Diospryos from further south than Texas.

[drymifolia]

From what I have seen D.texana seems fairly different to D.nigra, but that may not mean they are not in the same sub group ?

They very similar in flesh consistency and color, and their native ranges are relatively near each other but do not overlap, so I was optimistically hoping they might be more closely related as a result. They also have the same chromosome count (30). Here's what texana looks like inside, very similar to nigra:



And this is what they look like as they are just starting to ripen:

why just rootstocks?

I think the fruit is quite good

I will be growing many of them for fruit, but I want to try to cross them with nigra without having to also grow that from seed or buy a tree. I can easily get scions, so thought I'd try grafting them if there's any hope of success.

[pagnr]

Since they have adjacent natural ranges there is a possibility they have a common ancestor. In some cases of near relatives, the grafting method may need to be tuned to work ie approach grafting of two rooted plants, or leaving some live leaves or branches on the rootstock. As for the two species, do the flowering and fruiting times overlap to allow X pollination ? Also is there anywhere in the ranges where they meet, and possibly hybridise.
The other one I was thinking about was Diospyros sonorae from Sonora.
Seems to be in your ball park too.
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/284960-Diospyros-sonorae/browse_photos

Just for interest here is Diospyros mabacea, Red Fruited Ebony, now one of the rarest rainforest trees in NSW, and a few other Australian species.https://keys.lucidcentral.org/keys/v3/FFPA/key/FFPA/Media/Html/Ebenaceae%20Images.htm

[Galatians522]

I think you've got a tentative yes on this. I've heard reports that Black sapote will graft to American.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://floridafruitgeek.com/2019/08/21/chocolate-pudding-fruit-successfully-grafted-onto-american-persimmon/&ved=2ahUKEwiAiKqf7tP7AhX5UjABHZNWDHoQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2qMSg9FV0DtdMsQEL_9g7T

And this article has a picture of a Texas persimmon that appears to be grafted to an Asian persimmon.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://rarefruitblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/2016-10.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi_wpqH7NP7AhWHbTABHbNxDRoQFnoECDEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1RZR0cavh6cE66FmgYhicM

Its well known that American and Asian are compatible. So, I would tentatively say that your two are compatible (although there is still a chance that an interstock might be needed). Actually, testing for graft compatibility is the first step in hybridization. If a plant won't graft, chances for a successful cross (without embryo rescue technology) become very slim. I would go for it! Please update this thread with your results.

[drymifolia]

I think you've got a tentative yes on this. I've heard reports that Black sapote will graft to American.

...

Actually, testing for graft compatibility is the first step in hybridization. If a plant won't graft, chances for a successful cross (without embryo rescue technology) become very slim. I would go for it! Please update this thread with your results.

Thank you! My seedlings are just starting now, so it'll probably be a year or more before they are big enough to graft easily, but I will definitely do that. I was just debating whether to go ahead and get a black sapote tree this coming spring vs waiting until 2024 and getting scions to graft on texana.

[drymifolia]

As for the two species, do the flowering and fruiting times overlap to allow X pollination ? Also is there anywhere in the ranges where they meet, and possibly hybridise.

I have no idea about flowering times, I'll probably have to try freezing/storing pollen.

The best range map I could find wasn't enough to say for sure that they don't overlap, but if they do it would just be right near the southern end of texana's range in Mexico. Here's texana:


And here's nigra/digyna:

[pagnr]

It is a very interesting project.
There seems to be a group of related Diospyros in the region of SW USA, Texas and Mexico, Baja etc.
https://www.tradewindsfruit.com/diospyros-californica-wild-black-sapote-seeds
https://www.tradewindsfruit.com/diospyros-aequoris-subsp.-aequoris-wild-mexican-persimmon-seeds

As you can see the Australian ones look different, although a few in Nth QLD are a look like smaller Kaki fruit
I did wonder if D.americana and D.kaki could be more closely related to each other via the northern connection via Alaska / Siberia etc ?
I think there are other plants with a connection that way, Nth USA and Russia / Asia.