Persimmon sapote hybrid

[Rollip]

Has anyone seen a cross of a commercial persimmon strain with a sapote? It seems like something that might be possible but I've never seen it before.

[Vegan Potato Man]

Sapote can refer to many individual fruits. Do you mean black sapote, diospyros nigra?

[drymifolia]

"commercial persimmon strain" is also ambiguous, because it could mean virginiana or kaki, or one of the few alleged crosses of those.

In any case, there are some major challenges to trying to cross black sapote (D. digyna is the official preferred species name, but the synonym D. nigra is also commonly used) with either virginiana or kaki.

First off, digyna is diploid (30 chromosomes), while virginiana and kaki are either tetraploid or hexaploid depending on specimens. While it's not impossible to cross diploid species with tetraploid or hexaploid species, it's probably going to require a sophisticated lab.

Next, most of the attempts to create a "family tree" for the Diospyros genus have placed digyna in a rather distant branch from kaki and virginiana, so they are pretty far apart despite being in the same genus. Not even the same clade (I'm also pointing out texana here because it's another diploid species that I'm hoping to try to cross with digyna/nigra at some point, as it's at least in the same clade):

[Rollip]

I was thinking kaki, like a chocolate persimmon.
But hadn't realized that sapote were diploids compared to the tetra/hexaploids. So you answered my question since my lab is my garden with a few tiny persimmon trees and I'm not gonna get that fancy.  I'd been looking at what other persimmons I could get that might produce interesting mixes since I'd been trying to make a little entropy and plant trees from seed.

I'd been trying to get some diospyros intricata since it's good in dry climates. But also I don't actually know their ploidy level and wouldn't be surprised if they are diploids based on the geographic closeness to where the sapotes exist, but was having trouble finding the information. That being said it might be interesting if one of those got mixed with a dignya if possible.

Where'd you get that awesome tree with all the data? I'm pretty new to this and trying to find better sources of information.

Thanks!

[drymifolia]

That chart was from this paper, but I'm not sure how accurate it is because it uses some statistical methods on genetic markers that have been discredited recently, so definitely take their phylogenetic trees (which are even internally inconsistent among their different methods) with a grain of salt:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790313002777

Most wild species in this genus are diploid, so it will not be easy crossing kaki with anything other than maybe virginiana (which is at least alleged to have been crossed in a number of instances, though I'm not sure that anyone has done genetic analysis to confirm that all the alleged crosses are in fact crosses).

[Rollip]

Probably true about the diploidyness, I'll poke around a bit more and see what I can find.
It's kind of interesting that the intricata fruit morphology looks more persimmony than sapotish to use scientific terms.

[sc4001992]

I have read of someone in SoCal that has successfully grafted black sapote to kaki. I have a large kaki rootstock tree that is a vigorous grower so I will try to graft some black sapote the year and let you see the results when my grafts grow out. I have a friend with a large black sapote tree so I can get my scion wood anytime I have time to do this experiment for you. Also, if it works then I won't need to wait for my seedling black sapote to become a tree and how fruits. My kaki rootstock has been in ground for over 30 years so the graft should get fruits in 2 years.

[Professor Porcupine]

Amazing Discussions! Crossing Orange Persimmons with Black Sapote (Or Texas Persimmon) is one of my Projects. I hope to callaborate & combine our Research & efforts to make it happen!

@drymifolia Fantastic Find on that Phylogenic Tree! I think that's the most comprehensive Diospyros Phylogenic Tree I found, Thank you!

What suprised me about that Phylogenic Tree, some species appear in different spots on the phylogenic tree? Are some Diospyros polyphyletic or simply mis-identified specimens?
I noticed D. rhombifolia is sister to D. texana? What is an Orange Persimmon Group species doing sister with a Black Persimmon group species?

I know there exist 3 way inter-species hybrid in Ukraine (D. lotus x D. virginiana x D. kaki) which all belong to the Cold Hardy Orange Persimmon Clade. Now imagine if your Cross D. nigra x D. texana with that 3 species hybrid from Ukraine? I think the high plasticity of such very hybridized offspring are very plastid thus softening hybridization barriers. If a Orange Group & Black Group hybrid would be achieved, I think it makes sense to start with thoroughly hybridized offspring from both sides first.

Have you heard of Russian Plant Breeder Ivan Michurin? He was doing Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination to achieve incredible Wide Crosses like with many Intergeneric Rosaceae Hybrids (Sorbus x Aronia for example).
His simple methods of Mentor Grafting combined with Mentor Pollination really give me hope that it's possible.

Mentor Pollination : Mixing (Lots of) incompatible pollen with (lil bit of) compatible pollen makes ovary accept incompatible pollen, so as to not reject compatible pollen. Very useful in helping bypass pollen related hybridization barriers, this also results in creating Bridge species through hybridization. However to bypass F1 fertility issues, hybridized offspring will need to be introgressed with it's Parent species. Repeat Mentor Pollination with both parent species & their hybrid offspring until the incompatibility is disolved via strong genetic exchange bridges (Aka Introgression, when 2 species become 1).

For example, Cucurbita maxima x Cucurbita moschata often make sterile offspring F1 that can't pollinate it self or other C. maxima x C. moschata hybrids. Simply mixing both parent species pollen to pollinate the F1 Hybrid Offspring's ovary (& Vice Versa) solves this.

Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki also often make sterile offspring with no seeds. I think mentor Pollination will dissolve any hybridization barriers.

Mentor Grafting : Grafting Young hybrid Tree/Seedling scion onto mature Trees (Rootstock) you want them to resemble, then pruning the scion so more rootstock sap flows thru it (& thus Horizotnally Transfering more of it's DNA). The Mentor/Rootstock's influence on the Scion is most strongest inside the seeds of Scion fruits (But Occasionally influences the scion too).
It should be noted, the younger & wider your Hybrid Seedling is, the more plastid it is (Aka it's hereditary power/influence is weaker) & thus the more receptive it is to the rootstocks influcence. Conversely the more older/mature the Mentor/Rootstock chosen, the greater influence it has on the scions offspring.

For example this effect was so strong that a 1 Year old hybrid Pear, grafted onto a 1 year old Seedling Lemon (Yes completely different Family) made pear leaves evergreen & Glossy. The other similar hybrid pear seedlings growing right next to it dropped their leaves.

Reciprocal Grafting : 2 young plants Swap Scions to help each other get use to their rootstock. Doing this helps soften/disolve some hybridization berriers before making crosses.
For example Wild Solanum lycopersicum x Solanum peruvianum crossed successfully after reciprocal grafting.

There are also other methods Ivan Michurin used but these were the ones I remembered & understood correctly.
I think combining all these methods could help make it possible to cross D. nigra x D. kaki.

What do y'all think?

[drymifolia]

@drymifolia Fantastic Find on that Phylogenic Tree! I think that's the most comprehensive Diospyros Phylogenic Tree I found, Thank you!

What suprised me about that Phylogenic Tree, some species appear in different spots on the phylogenic tree? Are some Diospyros polyphyletic or simply mis-identified specimens?
I noticed D. rhombifolia is sister to D. texana? What is an Orange Persimmon Group species doing sister with a Black Persimmon group species?

As I said when I shared the link, it uses some potentially questionable statistical methods on genetic markers to build those phylogenetic trees, so they should be taken with a grain of salt rather than taken as gospel.

I don't think "Orange Group" and "Black Group" are meaningful terms, because there are some very distantly related Diospyros species that share fruit color, and some closely related ones that are different colors. There's a dark variant of D. virginiana that occasionally occurs in the northwestern part of the range, but I don't think anyone has proposed that it comes from hybridization with a dark species, it's just a mutation that has persisted a bit.

I have a bunch of specimens of texana and digyna but I'm still a few years away from them reaching a fruiting size, even the grafted ones, but I still plan to try that since they are at least both diploid. If you're hoping to cross species of different ploidy, you may have some challenges depending on the specific chromosome numbers involved.

[Professor Porcupine]

I agree, Exact Phylogenic Tree positions can switch & hybridizations really makes the Phylogenic tree into a Phylogenic Web. I see phylogenic Trees as Guide lines, I pair them with what I know about which species can hybridize to see how strict the positions are.

I just don't know what to call the kaki, virginiana, lotus claude of Persimmons? All are cold Hardy, make Orangish fruits and have potential to cross. I'm glad there are other Persimmons, I've yet to begin scratching the surface of the *Diospyros* diversity.

OOH! Have you found any photos of the Dark Variant of D. virginiana? I've always thought the blue skin ones were just the older poor quality fruits left over in winter. Or are you talking about something totally different? If so please tell me more. If it's a Mutation that's awesome!

I was hoping Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination could help smooth out mis-matching ploidy issues.
Have you tried pruning & bending your branches sideways to shift your tree away from growth mode into fruit mode? Pruning & Grafting is also how I plan to speed run my trees into producing fruits (When I get land :'().

[drymifolia]

I was hoping Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination could help smooth out mis-matching ploidy issues

I don't think either of those have any effect on ploidy-based limitations on hybridization. You'll need to do some pretty difficult chromosome doubling/tripling/etc if the ploidy is incompatible (and different doesn't necessarily mean incompatible, depending on the chromosome numbers).

In fact, I'm fairly certain that mentor grafting is pseudoscience without any basis in plant biology, and I'm not aware of any controlled studies that found it to be effective.

On the other hand, using (sterile) compatible pollen to trick a flower into accepting pollen will really work if the issue is some way the flower has evolved to only accept certain pollen, i.e. prevention of pollen tube formation despite chromosomal compatibility. Chromosomal incompatibility will prevent the formation of an embryo, though, even if you can get the pollen to do its magic with a pollen "disguise."

I just don't know what to call the kaki, virginiana, lotus claude of Persimmons? All are cold Hardy, make Orangish fruits and have potential to cross. I'm glad there are other Persimmons, I've yet to begin scratching the surface of the *Diospyros* diversity.

The paper above calls it "Clade IX" and that probably works, or just "the kaki/virginiana clade" gets the point across. I just meant there are lots of species in the genus that are black, brown, orange, green, and almost every possible color, so it's inaccurate to use a label that implies all the species of a certain color are more closely related to each other.

The dark skinned virginiana do still have orange flesh, like this (photo taken from another forum, not my own):



There are also mutations of kaki with brown flesh, like the "Chocolate" cultivar.

[Professor Porcupine]

My reply is blocked as spam, this a test

[Professor Porcupine]

oh my I wasn't expecting pseudo science, just to clarify it's the "Mentor Grafting solves chromosome mis-matches" part that's pseudo science & not the Mentor Grafting Technique itself to overcome other hybridization barriers right? I've never tested it cuz I have no land to try it on :'(
Michurin was able to Make Intergeneric Hybrids that way (Probably had matching Chromosome numbers despite being different genera).
However many Chinese Researchers have been studying michurin's work & it's recently getting proven. I'm sorry I forget not everyone knows about them, them scientist need youtubers spreading the word.

Here's the study,
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30122234/


Thank you for clarifying that Mentor Pollination doesn't solve Chromosome mis-matches (I'm still not sure if they're important to focus on or not cuz a lot of times the hybrid plants figured it out but I wasn't sure why). Perhaps the Persimmon Family is a plant family that is strict about chromosome numbers. Brassicaceae, Poaceae, Zingiberaceae, Asteraceae, Rosaceae and many more are all known for constantly making intergeneric Hybrids, many even with mis-matching Chromosome numbers. Brassica with Raphanus Trianlge comes to mind.



Fantastic Blue Persimmon, I've seen those before but only after a long winter as leftovers. And all the fruits on that tree are blue like that?

[drymifolia]

oh my I wasn't expecting pseudo science, just to clarify it's the "Mentor Grafting solves chromosome mis-matches" part that's pseudo science & not the Mentor Grafting Technique itself to overcome other hybridization barriers right? I've never tested it cuz I have no land to try it on :'(
Michurin was able to Make Intergeneric Hybrids that way (Probably had matching Chromosome numbers despite being different genera).
However many Chinese Researchers have been studying michurin's work & it's recently getting proven. I'm sorry I forget not everyone knows about them, them scientist need youtubers spreading the word.

Here's the study,
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30122234/

I have read a lot about the debate over the existence/prevalence of graft hybridization, but that's something entirely different. The vast majority of alleged graft hybrids were in fact chimeras or random bud sports, and there's no real evidence that "mentor grafting" has any real effect, nor any physiological reason it should.

I think the consensus now is that while sometimes DNA and RNA can cross the graft union and cause mutations to occur (graft hybridization), it's not commonplace nor useful as a way to encourage actual sexual hybridization (i.e. via pollination).

I do not watch YouTube, I'm mostly a research paper kind of guy, so I'll dig around some more and see if there's any better example of "mentor grafting" being effective. I am aware that it was used by some breeders, especially before the modern understanding of what grafting does and does not do to the plants involved, but I've mostly seen it discussed as one of those dead-ends that is not worth repeating because that's not how plant biology works.

Thank you for clarifying that Mentor Pollination doesn't solve Chromosome mis-matches (I'm still not sure if they're important to focus on or not cuz a lot of times the hybrid plants figured it out but I wasn't sure why). Perhaps the Persimmon Family is a plant family that is strict about chromosome numbers. Brassicaceae, Poaceae, Zingiberaceae, Asteraceae, Rosaceae and many more are all known for constantly making intergeneric Hybrids, many even with mis-matching Chromosome numbers. Brassica with Raphanus Trianlge comes to mind.

I tried to be as clear as I could but I may have not said it right. The chromosome numbers don't need to match, but they do need to be compatible. For reasons that I don't fully understand, certain ploidy combinations work better than others. Diploid x tetraploid often forms sterile triploids, and diploids almost never can cross with hexaploids, though if they did I guess it would be a pentaploid.

D. kaki persimmons are hexaploid (usually) or nonaploid (rarely), while D. virginiana is split in half, with the northwest portion hexaploid and the southeastern portion tetraploid.

I don't know about nonaploid x diploid compatibility, but diploids are generally not very compatible with hexaploids and produce sterile offspring when crossed with tetraploids, unless you are lucky and get a random polyploid in your diploid population. So if you want to try to breed any diploid species with kaki or virginiana then you will likely have to double the chromosomes of the diploid species first.

Fantastic Blue Persimmon, I've seen those before but only after a long winter as leftovers. And all the fruits on that tree are blue like that?

It was posted on the Growing Fruit forum by someone with lots of knowledge of persimmons who said that tree always has them. I have seen other people discuss it as a genetic thing and not a response to freezing, but it isn't something I've looked deeply into. You can see here it was posted in November, so not at the end of winter:

https://growingfruit.org/t/blue-native-persimmon/40757

[Professor Porcupine]

I've also heard the same about Mentor Grafting being tossed aside as a dead end with no usefulness. At first I was thinking that's not how genetics works but maybe how Epigenetics work. It turns out Horizontal Gene Transfer seems to be very real.
 
I wonder if the consensus only tested this theory on mature plants grafted on Mature Plants? I legit think this is why it's not commonplace, no one does it with Young Hybridized highly plastid Offspring, most are working with mature highly stabilized non-plastid plants. It's very recent these Chinese Researchers have shown there is more to it, the consensus spread is much slower than I realized.

As you look into to, look for scientific papers on Ivan Michurin's work, a lot of the Chinese Researchers have tested & proven his theories.
Report back any cool things you find, I love Learning!


I also don't understand why certain ploidy combinations work better than others, it's why I was so confused. It's good they didn't need to match, just need to be compatible. Since Diploid x tetraploid often forms sterile triploids, what happens if you combine mix Diploid & tetraploid pollen to pollinate the Sterile triploid again? Will it fail to set fruit, make seedless fruit or be sterlie again in the next generation?

The only way to solve incompatible Chromosome numbers is to have one double so it's an even number? I've heard it's the odd number ploidy that's the hard part for breeders but I'm not sure why?

Fantastic! I've been on the growing fruit forums. One user mentioned Diospyros lotus always has blue fruit?

I've noticed that the "Blue" trait is on some of the other orange fruits? It seems like that variety has the "Blue" blemish trait all around, much like how I see in very late persimmons during winter. Perhaps that "Blue" Persimmon you showed me has different skin traits that allow the blemish to go all around the fruit much earlier thus to be fully "Blue" in November.




EDIT : Oh I also forgot to mention, Chuchupaka Persimmon exist, but it isn't always blue (Appears the ripening color is weather dependent?). It's a 3rd generation D. kaki x D. virginiana hybrid, I think it got the blue skin trait from D. virginiana.




Tell me if you see the Blue Persimmon trait in transition here? This is D. virginiana at different stages, most become blue like this at wrinkled stage, perhaps that one you showed me becomes blue well before it gets wrinkled.

[drymifolia]

I've also heard the same about Mentor Grafting being tossed aside as a dead end with no usefulness. At first I was thinking that's not how genetics works but maybe how Epigenetics work. It turns out Horizontal Gene Transfer seems to be very real.
 
I wonder if the consensus only tested this theory on mature plants grafted on Mature Plants? I legit think this is why it's not commonplace, no one does it with Young Hybridized highly plastid Offspring, most are working with mature highly stabilized non-plastid plants. It's very recent these Chinese Researchers have shown there is more to it, the consensus spread is much slower than I realized.

As you look into to, look for scientific papers on Ivan Michurin's work, a lot of the Chinese Researchers have tested & proven his theories.
Report back any cool things you find, I love Learning!

I don't have the time for a deep dive at the moment, but from a lunch break surface skim, I did indeed see discussions of recent Chinese research, though mostly in the context of "look graft hybridization is a thing that can happen," not specifically about it proving anything about mentor grafting helping to enable sexual hybridization, and there have been accusations of falsified data in some of those Chinese studies. I just have a strong suspicion that it is not a practical means to enable sexual hybridization of species that are not otherwise genetically compatible, even if you might get a 1 in a billion lucky gene transfer that fixes the incompatibility.

Since Diploid x tetraploid often forms sterile triploids, what happens if you combine mix Diploid & tetraploid pollen to pollinate the Sterile triploid again? Will it fail to set fruit, make seedless fruit or be sterlie again in the next generation?

Triploids often fail to flower, have flowers incapable of forming fruit, or more rarely form seedless fruit. Because the seed parent is incapable of producing viable offspring, no amount of pollen trickery will fix that problem. I've also been unable to find any research paper about any triploid Diospyros species or hybrid ever being created, so I suspect that diploid x tetraploid is simply entirely incompatible in this genus.

The only way to solve incompatible Chromosome numbers is to have one double so it's an even number? I've heard it's the odd number ploidy that's the hard part for breeders but I'm not sure why?

Odd numbers are problematic because each parent generally donates half their chromosomes to the offspring, so you can't get half of 3 or 5. But it's not entirely that clear-cut, occasionally the odd ploidy gets paired with a mutation that solves that problem by doubling something or fusing something.

Also it seems like higher odd ploidies have fewer problems than lower odd ploidies (some papers discuss nonaploid kaki cultivars and I don't remember any mention of them being sterile). Nonaploid can happen with hexaploid x hexaploid where one of them spontaneously doubles, so maybe some kakis are prone to spontaneous doubling? It would make sense, since the first hexaploid ancestor was probably the product of a spontaneous doubling of one parent's contribution in a tetraploid x tetraploid offspring.