Author Topic: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants  (Read 14653 times)

tritonus

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Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« on: October 06, 2024, 08:14:35 AM »
Hey guys
I have the chance to lease a 2 acre plot here in Switzerland in zone 8a.

I want to plant out as many "rare" fruit plants as possible and do some experimental zone pushing.

I was thinking, or am already in possesion of the following in my home garden:

Plants that should do ok:

Pawpaws
Feijoas
Loquat (will probably not set fruit because flowering in autumn?)
Pomegranate
Passiflora incarnata
Kadusra coccinea


Plants which will possibly die, but I'll try anyways:

Cherimoya - Fino de Jete (one tree planted out plus 50 seedlings)
Atemoya - Geffner
Avocado - Del Rio/Pryor/Fantastic, Mexicola, Bacon
Citrus - Trifoliate, Yuzu, but also Satsumas?
Passiflora - edulis, alata, ligularis, popenovii etc.
Musa - Raja Puri, Red dwarf, Namwah, are there faster fruiting ones?
Eugenia - COTRG?

Out of these, which varieties should I put my focus on? Are there other, more cold tolerant varieties, or different interesting plants that could survive here?

My dream is to have a small stand at a local farmers market in a few years and sell plants and fruit that people here have never heard of.

Thank you guys!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 08:25:02 AM by tritonus »

K-Rimes

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2024, 02:11:49 PM »
I don't want to be a Debbie Downer on your plans, but having been in a somewhat similar position and idea as you thinking I could zone push with success, well... Let me assure you there is a limit, and you will waste a lot of money, time, and kill a lot of plants along the way ignoring the realities of your zone. There are AWESOME rare fruits, like the first part of your list, that can work well in your area with little effort. Consider adding lots of delicious stonefruit hybrids like pluots, rare apples, pawpaws, feijoas, poms, figs and so on. You can plant something like a loquat, and maybe 1/5 winters will be mild enough for them to fruit, and that'll be great for you. As the climate changes, it may end up being a great call.

The latter half of your list simply is not going to work without serious protection measures, or a well insulated and heated greenhouse that can house large trees for a long time. If you have access to building something like that, you're going to have a great time. If you have to leave your plants outdoors all year long, you will struggle.

I killed so many plants thinking I could do 10a in 9b. It didn't work so well. Apply yourself to getting the best producing stuff for your area first and then open it up to some zone push style selections.

Just my opinion, and experience, anyways.


SplorKeLZ

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2024, 02:26:40 PM »
i am in 9a and the latter half of the list will not fruit here, exept for the citrus, i know of a fruiting trifoliate orange here but the rest will probably not work. good luck though!
I'm on the hunt for jaboticaba, Eugenia, Pouteria, Passiflora, and annona fruits (like the fruit part), if you have any to spare, lemme know!  I'm also looking for any plants that could bear fruit soon :)

tritonus

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2024, 03:54:22 PM »
Thank you both for the reply... and for bringing me back to reality.

Maybe that's what I needed to hear. I'm only a few years into rare fruiting plants and probably too naive. I was indeed hoping for climate change to help me out on this one. Just because my coffee plant is setting fruit indoors and my Pomegranate and Physalis are doing great doesn't mean I can magically make Avocados more cold tolerant than they can be.

I did already plant the 3-year old cherimoya out, at least it survived 3 nights with 0°C without damage in spring, I'll do my best to protect it (tent + frost guard).

I'm in talks with a guy who owns an old greenhouse near me. Rebuilding that one is the far better option for the second list it seems.

The journey is really exciting though. Glad to be here and thanks for the advice.

Rob From Sydney

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2024, 06:41:51 AM »
Loquats, I have read, are hardy to -12C, but lose flowers/fruit/leaves at -3C. Grow seedlings, they are more adaptable. Would love to hear results, they would be quite interesting.

White Sapote might work, would be worth pushing, again, grow a seedling.

Casimiroa Pringlei is an extremely hard to obtain relative of white sapote. Apparently hardy to 8F.

American Pawpaw should grow easily for you.


Addition, I forgot about this one:
I saw a listing on trade winds fruit for some kind of suriam cherry hardy to 14F (-10C). Looks interesting and promising for zone 8a.
https://www.tradewindsfruit.com/eugenia-uniflora-dasyblasta-dasyblasta-surinam-cherry-seeds
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 06:49:58 AM by Rob From Sydney »

Rauf

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2024, 03:44:57 PM »
I'd advise hardy citruses - trifoliate hybrids - US-942, US- 857, citremon, some others, also can try Sweet Pomona lemon, which is supposedly hardy to 15°F ( -9,5°C ), you can also try Guabiju, Ubajay, Mistol, according to Marcos, they are hardy to -9°, -10°C

K-Rimes

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2024, 03:47:27 PM »
I'd advise hardy citruses - trifoliate hybrids - US-942, US- 857, citremon, some others, also can try Sweet Pomona lemon, which is supposedly hardy to 15°F ( -9,5°C ), you can also try Guabiju, Ubajay, Mistol, according to Marcos, they are hardy to -9°, -10°C

Guabiju rocks out hard for me here in 9b and doesn't mind the cold. In noticing this, I planted one out at my parent's place near Vancouver BC, it is shown as 9a in the new hardiness zone map but imo is 8b still.

It got roasted back to the ground, same with loquat, even though it was in a cage filled with leaves to insulate it. The loquat fully died, the guabiju came back from the roots a bit, but I am doubtful it will survive another year.

Sorry but, don't trust the seed seller's cold tolerance "data" too much.

Jaboticaba45

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2024, 04:21:53 PM »
Someone fruited eugenia pyriformis in 8a.
In Europe, he grew it in ground under a tree and it fruited.

Dimitry Fisher

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2024, 04:35:25 PM »
here in Switzerland in zone 8a.

As the previous responders said, the cold-tolerance data provided by sellers is often a wishful thinking, and furthermore even if the plant can tolerate this amount of frost doesn't mean it will thrive or fruit. In all likelihood, it will die slowly over the course of several years.  A better approach for you would be to find world regions that have a similar climate to yours: min/mean/max monthly temperatures, humidity, dry and rainy seasons; and maybe even similar soil types (although soil can be amended to some extent). Then, see what food plants are grown in those areas around the world, and pick the ones that you'd like to grow.  This will save you a lot of disappointment down the road. 

Record lows for warmer parts of Switzerland  (Lausanne, Lugano, Basel, Zurich) are somewhere between -25 C and -15 C.   Even if you assume -15 C as your absolute low, occurring once every few years, this rules out half the plants on your list unfortunately. Or can you build a greenhouse?

tritonus

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2024, 04:37:17 PM »
Loquats, I have read, are hardy to -12C, but lose flowers/fruit/leaves at -3C. Grow seedlings, they are more adaptable. Would love to hear results, they would be quite interesting.

White Sapote might work, would be worth pushing, again, grow a seedling.

Casimiroa Pringlei is an extremely hard to obtain relative of white sapote. Apparently hardy to 8F.

American Pawpaw should grow easily for you.


Addition, I forgot about this one:
I saw a listing on trade winds fruit for some kind of suriam cherry hardy to 14F (-10C). Looks interesting and promising for zone 8a.
https://www.tradewindsfruit.com/eugenia-uniflora-dasyblasta-dasyblasta-surinam-cherry-seeds

Yes, I was thinking in that direction as well.

At home I already have 1 Loquat seedling in the ground in the second year, and it's doing great, starting to branch out. Vegetative growth should be doable here. Also 2 Pawpaws (Susquehanna and Sunflower) in the ground.

2 White sapotes just germinated right now in my indoor grow tent. I didn't know about Casimiroa Pringlei, thank you for the hint!

I also have 10 germinated Dasyblasta seeds indoors right now. Plus a COTRG plant, and some other Eugenias, though not as cold hardy (Grumichama, Pitangatuba, ZDSC).

tritonus

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2024, 04:39:03 PM »
I'd advise hardy citruses - trifoliate hybrids - US-942, US- 857, citremon, some others, also can try Sweet Pomona lemon, which is supposedly hardy to 15°F ( -9,5°C ), you can also try Guabiju, Ubajay, Mistol, according to Marcos, they are hardy to -9°, -10°C

Uuh that sounds great, most of them are new to me, thanks a lot!

tritonus

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2024, 04:43:31 PM »
here in Switzerland in zone 8a.
Record lows for warmer parts of Switzerland  (Lausanne, Lugano, Basel, Zurich) are somewhere between -25 C and -15 C.   Even if you assume -15 C as your absolute low, occurring once every few years, this rules out half the plants on your list unfortunately. Or can you build a greenhouse?

Yoa are correct. The plot I'm looking at is near a lake in 8a, so should not go down to -15°C. But yes, I'm also looking to hopefully rebuild an old greenhouse near me.

K-Rimes

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2024, 04:50:24 PM »
My parents' place in BC "should not" go down to -15C, it is also right beside a lake, but it did... Two years in a row.

There is nothing wrong with growing things in pots and bringing them indoors (in a garage, cellar, etc) for those really cold months. I have massive fruiting eugenia and plinia in pots and do the same, but yeah, these things one bad cold snap away from dying on you.

Spend 75% of effort, time and money on things that will fruit and survive - the rest, ok to gamble, in my opinion. Just do so with small plants, seedlings, etc that you won't mind dying.

Rauf

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2024, 05:55:22 PM »
I'd advise hardy citruses - trifoliate hybrids - US-942, US- 857, citremon, some others, also can try Sweet Pomona lemon, which is supposedly hardy to 15°F ( -9,5°C ), you can also try Guabiju, Ubajay, Mistol, according to Marcos, they are hardy to -9°, -10°C

Guabiju rocks out hard for me here in 9b and doesn't mind the cold. In noticing this, I planted one out at my parent's place near Vancouver BC, it is shown as 9a in the new hardiness zone map but imo is 8b still.

It got roasted back to the ground, same with loquat, even though it was in a cage filled with leaves to insulate it. The loquat fully died, the guabiju came back from the roots a bit, but I am doubtful it will survive another year.

Sorry but, don't trust the seed seller's cold tolerance "data" too much.


Agree, I've tested a lot of  species and some of them have less cold tolerance, that supposedly should have. For example, dragonfruit is hardy to 22°F, but couldn't survive here even when we have winters with no frost. Constantly cold winter with average temperatures between 35-40°F makes it different from Florida's zone 8b-9a. I noticed also that some in-ground plants die mostly in February, when they are already exhausted by cold exposure. I've lost some avocados and white sapotes this year in last week of February, when I already thought that this winter would be without losses ( we have no frost in spring ). Didn't tested Guabiju, it's small and still is in my "nursery" greenhouse ( I try to mature my plants here several years to improve hardiness before moving outside ). Had plenty Suriname cherry seedlings and planted some of them outside last year, they overwinter with no problem, just lost some leaves but had nice new growth in spring.
So if the temperature drops down to -15°C, even rare, it's actually not zone 8, but zone 7, right? We had record low 8°F in February 2010, but besides that temperatures rarely drop below 28°F, every 5 years we have 22-25°F though.

K-Rimes

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2024, 06:01:02 PM »
The cold snaps were kind of weather anomalies in my opinion. In the 24 years I lived in BC, I didn't see it get that cold, which is why I felt confident to plant a loquat and guabiju.

That's the point I'm trying to make though: you are good and well zone pushing all the way up till the day you are not. Look at Texas with that crazy freeze, another great example.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2024, 10:05:57 AM »
One thing worth keeping in mind is the cold hardiness numbers are generally for plants that are otherwise growing in subtropical to tropical climates.

A plant that can survive a 20 F freeze in Florida survives in part because that freeze is very short, maybe an hour long, and the rest of the winter is balmy, mostly sunny, and short. Then the long, hot, very bright summer arrives and the pants recovers. Even just being near a house or under an evergreen tree might be all that's needed to protect the tree since down here our hardest freezes are radiative freezes in still air so there will be large temperature differences between microclimates.

20 F in British Columbia is a different story. It'll stay 20 F or close to that temperature for hours and might not get above freezing at all during the following day. And it'll stay cold, dark, and windy for months before slowly warming up for a brief and dry summer.

And to think Europe is even further from the equator...

Citrus is best under part shade in the tropics, whereas here in NC I plant them in full sun and they thrive. If you're a thousand miles north of me, and you're trying to grow a plant that grows in full sun in the tropics, I got bad news for you.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2024, 10:23:13 AM »
Tritonus, I don't want to be harsh, but unless you're keeping those things in pots and moving them indoors, or providing protection and heat in the winter, I doing think anything other than hardy citrus have a chance. It's probably better to focus on hardy subtropical plants, temperate plants, and whichever tropical plants do best in pots. 8a in Europe is pretty hard on most tropical plants.

But, I mean, you've still got so much fruit you can grow.

I suspect in your area you can get away with things that die in my summers, like currants, raspberries, apples, Chilean guava berry, luma, and strawberries. That, plus all the other temperate fruits like stone fruit, grapes, goumi, mulberry, blueberries, etc.

Loquat will almost certainly never fruit for you, but it's a pretty evergreen.

Early figs, feijoa, pawpaw, pomegranate, jujube, persimmons, Asian pears, and kiwis are all likely doable. Maybe maypop, that depends more on your summer than your winter, ditto for some hardy citrus. Hardy prickly pear species will be fine in well drained soil, but commercial varieties would need winter protection. Dragon fruit is completely out of the question unless you have a greenhouse and don't mind fighting huge pots with long, brittle, extremely spikey plants that just taste like kiwi anyway.

And then for potted plants, lemon guava is fast and easy, late ripening figs can be given head starts, a lot of citrus varieties can do well in pots, Barbados cherry is very cold sensitive but otherwise extremely easy to keep in a pot, perhaps some Eugenias but I'm no expert on them. Be careful of plants that are nearly hardy, but get huge before fruiting like guabiju and hardy bananas. Those are perhaps better in ground and just very well protected.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 10:27:06 AM by a_Vivaldi »

drymifolia

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2024, 02:20:51 AM »
I have the chance to lease a 2 acre plot here in Switzerland in zone 8a.

I know there's a very successful avocado grove on the lakeshore near Brissago/Locarno, but I'm guessing your location is significantly colder than that microclimate.

Pandan

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2024, 03:09:53 PM »
Just chipping into say I think experimental zone pushing is super cool and its something I aim to achieve with my garden. As K-rimes said though this would be expensive with high failure rates without preparation. My idea has always been look for usually hardy varieties/populations of these crops (or hardy relatives to hybridize with) to grow and pamper and then slowly test the offspring, ofc problems are posed here for slow maturing or massive plants.

Another idea i've gotten into:

rare fruit / food is not limited to unusual amazonian berries unheard of outside brazil, many amazing crops have been forgotten in their own lands and never advanced globally (kind of like what happened to pawpaws in the USA). Perhaps you could also look into growing, selecting and improving fruit plants native to your area. I think native plant growing is going to trend up explosively in the next few years as more reports of ecological decline come in.

And as others have said there are hardy and sub-tropical plants that are wonderful options.

Gkight

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2024, 03:38:10 PM »
As others have said a lot of those will likely be a lost cause, however I won’t discourage you. I zone push a lot also, and I wouldn’t listen necessarily to someone else’s advice because you have to find what works in your area. As mentioned I get dips into the teens rarely but even then it’s well above freezing in a few hours. My citrus and Avos have sailed through with basically no damage. However I protect them with incandescent lights and cloth when we are predicted to have below 0*c.

I think Loquat, Guabiju, Sete Capote, COTRG and Peruvian apple cactus could be worth trying however. But I wouldn’t invest too much funds into them. As mentioned go with seedlings, or cuttings to root.

Keep on pushing.



K-Rimes

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2024, 03:59:39 PM »
As others have said a lot of those will likely be a lost cause, however I won’t discourage you.

Keep on pushing.

I admit, I may have come off harsher than I mean to, but as a zone pusher myself (and still pushing), I do wish someone had really been a bit more stark with me when I started out. It would have saved me money, heartache, and I'd have been eating way more fruit overall. I've been fruit collecting for something like 6 years now, and only started really doing stonefruit, mulberry and fig for the last 3. Had I focused on those fruits which match my climate perfectly, I'd have be much further ahead than now.

Rauf

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2024, 07:23:30 PM »
As others have said a lot of those will likely be a lost cause, however I won’t discourage you.

Keep on pushing.

I admit, I may have come off harsher than I mean to, but as a zone pusher myself (and still pushing), I do wish someone had really been a bit more stark with me when I started out. It would have saved me money, heartache, and I'd have been eating way more fruit overall. I've been fruit collecting for something like 6 years now, and only started really doing stonefruit, mulberry and fig for the last 3. Had I focused on those fruits which match my climate perfectly, I'd have be much further ahead than now.

The same experience  :D

drymifolia

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2024, 08:30:31 PM »

The same experience  :D

To give a slightly different take, I have been zone pushing all sorts of things for ~6 years now,  and I have no regrets for any of it. I will say that I've avoided buying expensive stuff, I've mostly collected (free!) seeds, sometimes bought seeds, or sometimes very small seedlings. I viewed my efforts more as an experiment than an effort to actually get fruit.

I've started about 500 avocados in that time, here in a location laughably far from anywhere anyone has successfully grown an avocado tree, and most of those trees are now dead. But I'm excited about the ones that aren't dead, and excited about the prospect of killing hundreds (thousands?) more trees before I'm done trying avocados.

It's about expectations and goals, for sure, but there's joy to be had from the experience, even if some species will be definite failures. Sometimes you might have a microclimate where you succeed with something totally unexpected! But probably mostly failure when you're really pushing.

Pandan

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2024, 08:51:09 PM »
To give a slightly different take, I have been zone pushing all sorts of things for ~6 years now,  and I have no regrets for any of it. I will say that I've avoided buying expensive stuff, I've mostly collected (free!) seeds, sometimes bought seeds, or sometimes very small seedlings. I viewed my efforts more as an experiment than an effort to actually get fruit.

I've started about 500 avocados in that time, here in a location laughably far from anywhere anyone has successfully grown an avocado tree, and most of those trees are now dead. But I'm excited about the ones that aren't dead, and excited about the prospect of killing hundreds (thousands?) more trees before I'm done trying avocados.

It's about expectations and goals, for sure, but there's joy to be had from the experience, even if some species will be definite failures. Sometimes you might have a microclimate where you succeed with something totally unexpected! But probably mostly failure when you're really pushing.

I love it and that's a great mentality to have. Reminds me of those Ukrainian efforts to find cold tolerant olives and citrus. Try enough times and you're bound to find something special. I wish we had more enterprising souls who got in on these sorts of botanic selection processes, how much would the gardening world be :D

toomanyplants

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Re: Zone pushing: Most cold hardy cultivars of exotic fruit plants
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2024, 09:00:10 PM »
I have also been zone pushing for ages in z6, but my entire collection is containerized.  Every winter I lose hundreds of square feet of living space to them and their lights.