Author Topic: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?  (Read 6981 times)

Lauta_hibrid

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I've seen people from all over the US in this group, people who talk to people from California, and people who have even requested seeds, but no one has taken a guided tour of the Riverside collection, nor has anyone requested seeds of this variety. I'm confused, does anyone already have the plant?

There is always talk of crossbreeding with poncirus and it brings two problems: the acidity of the hybrid fruit and the need to be early, to avoid it being ruined by frost.

As far as I'm concerned this citrus has the potential to fix this quickly, whenever you harvest acid-free limes (C. limetoide) before they ripen they are still low in acid so you can take advantage of the unripe fruit.

a hybrid of acid-free pummelo x poncirus would give its or yes a low acid hybrid, transmitting only one set of the gene that gives these characteristics. we could have a group of hybrids being sure that they carry it and not wait years without knowing. then an F 2 could be made, as was done with the conestoga, and thus duplicate the gene and have an acid-free citrumelo. is it so difficult to get a bud or some seeds from that plant? I know that maybe I am overenthusiastic, but it seems so within reach and so physically impossible for me, since I live at the other end of the continent... what do you think?

JSea

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2025, 03:26:42 AM »
The issue with Poncirus is definitely not the acidity, it's the 'Poncirus resin', that group of sticky, stinky, bitter tasting compounds. I have cooked some slightly overripe C-35 fruits once, and they smelled awful, unbelievably awful, from the compounds of this group. I had to cook that marmalade for twice as long as normal to mostly get rid of the smells, and even then the resulting marmalade was extremely bitter.

If acidity was the only problem then you could use it like a sour lemon and make lemonade out of it :)
So using acidless parents for Poncirus F1s won't really help to any degree I believe, as the 'Poncirus resin' compounds will almost definitely be represented by one set of genes.

I grew out some C-35 seeds, and of the 2x monofoliate seedlings I found so far, 1x had the stinky Poncirus smell in the leaves (this seedling now dead), 1x didn't have the smell (seedling still alive). I'm fairly confident that if the plant can't produce these compounds in the leaves, they won't exist in the fruits either, and so my hope for this seedling is that it'll be a small, seedy and sour orange, but it will retain some toughness and maybe even have some interesting double recessive gene behavior too.

I also believe there is a high chance that the removal of these Poncirus resins from further hybrids will negate a lot of the cold tolerance, as I suspect these compounds may have a dual function as anti-freeze compounds.

Ilya11

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2025, 03:33:59 AM »
I've seen people from all over the US in this group, people who talk to people from California, and people who have even requested seeds, but no one has taken a guided tour of the Riverside collection, nor has anyone requested seeds of this variety. I'm confused, does anyone already have the plant?
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=58010.25
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2025, 01:33:59 PM »
There are several sources in Europe, I have 2 different origins. Unfortunately, pomelos are very difficult in my climate, so far they have not flowered and the fruits of pomelo hybrids, so probably also of pomelos, are often without flesh and have only stunted seeds. A well-known problem in cool summers.

SoCal2warm

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2025, 03:38:11 AM »
Keep in mind both "Oroblanco" and "Melogold" grapefruit came about from a cross between the acid-free pomelo and Duncan white grapefruit.


There is always talk of crossbreeding with poncirus and it brings two problems: the acidity of the hybrid fruit ...
It's not "the acidity" that is the problem. If you're saying that, it makes me think you've never tried the hybrid fruit.

The real issue is that Poncirus tends to impart a horrible flavor, which is difficult to accurately describe.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2025, 01:04:53 PM »
Just to add another perspective to the conversation, I agree with Lauta_hibrid that it would be very worthwhile for someone to do the acid-free Pummelo x poncirus cross. While true that Poncirus can impart disagreeable flavors, it is also true that there is a clear need for low acid poncirus hybrids. I tried a large variety of hybrids last season including Dunstan citrumelo, Swingle citrumelo, Sacaton citrumelo, US-852, and citremon. In all cases, the hybrids were sour and I thought that they could be used as a lemon substitute in the way that lime can be used as a lemon substitute. The off flavors in these hybrids weren't that bad for me. They were there as off flavors but not to the point that I felt any were horrible and when diluted and sweetened all were fine to consume. I think that a low acid citrumelo has a really good chance at being on the level of a decent grapefuit and that could probably be found even in the F1 crosses. For a more hardy F2, there would be a 50% chance of lowering the acid which still seems very useful especially when considering that a cross could be made with a Citrandarin to try to mitigate some of the bitterness.

The biggest issue is that Pummelo can have a high heat requirement (like mikkel noted) so the breeding would need to start in a climate where there isn't much interest in cold hardy citrus. Probably the initial cross and the F1 generation would need to take place in a warm climate and then the F2 generation would benefit from a colder climate for testing.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2025, 04:27:57 PM »
US-802 is trifoliate x "Siamese" pumelo which might be a regular pumelo or an acidless one. If it was the acidless one, them it seems that gene might not work on trifoliate, because the fruit of US-802 are described as sour.

It's not certain, and someone should definitely make hybrids between trifoliate and various acidless citrus. But it might be a situation like with "blood" pigmentation where trifoliate might not express the trait even if it inherits the gene for it.

And, as others noted, acid isn't the only or even the main issue with trifoliate and its hybrids. The off flavors, nasty and potentially mildly toxic resin, seedy fruit, small size, adherent rind, somewhat low sugars, and often low juiciness or pulp quantities are all issues that come with trifoliate genetics.

It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean that there are no shortcuts. It's extremely unlikely a single cross will be a magic bullet.

But, again, if trifoliate hybrids can express the acidless trait, then it'll be a very useful cross to make on the road to a good cold hardy citrus.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2025, 06:18:55 PM »
I'm leaning towards US-802 being a cross with the acid pumelo https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc2421. The acidless one goes by Siamese Sweet pummelo or Siamese acidless pummelo and I would expect that would be noted in the Pedigree https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail?id=1752331. You are right that the acidless gene could act differently in a trifoliate hybrids, but I'd really be interested to learn if that is the case by having someone do controlled crosses with the acidless variety.

Those issues that you listed are all real areas for improvement. I think that breeding is an ongoing process but each attempt gives a chance at progress. Given that Siamese acidless pummelo could address the acid area, I would encourage that it be pursued rather than fixating on if it would solve everything. The initial responses to Lauta_hibrid implied that acid was not one of the prominent traits to focus on improving though breeding and I think that acid is a good one to work on. The off flavors, size, resin, seeds could all be impacted along the way and a lower acid citrumelo would be very useful for future crosses.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2025, 11:07:39 PM »
Agreed.

Does anyone know if Succory has genes for no acid or is just a low acid orange? My understanding is US-119 is low acid but not zero acid like some of the truly acidless citrus. Succory being one or the other could help in sorting this out.

Some of the kumquat hybrids are extremely sour and of course fairly small but otherwise quite nice, perhaps they'd be good ones to try crossing with acidless citrus. Citrangequat x Lima Sweet Orange or Siamese Sweet would be super interesting if perhaps not quite hardy enough without some backcrossing to a trifoliate hybrid.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2025, 11:21:26 PM »
As for US-802, mine is getting pretty darn huge, so I really think it'll flower next year. I'm expecting the fruit to be quite large but also extremely seedy (a good bit larger and several times more seedy than Swingle according to Kim Bowman at the USDA) and otherwise not great. Probably sour and dry. If it is a child of the regular Siamese, it might be a pretty early ripening fruit despite its size.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2025, 12:05:12 AM »
There is a detailed discussion of some of the acidless and low acid genetics at the following https://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/728/inheritance-low-acidity. If I recall correctly, I think that it seemed that there is a different mechanism for Succory that relates to acid metabolism. That being said, I think there is definitely potential there as well.

Ilya11

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2025, 03:45:57 AM »
Two years ago I succeeded  to make a cross of PoncirusPlus with Valentine that had the acidless pomelo as a mother.
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=52897.msg509721#msg509721
The seedlings are growing nicely, some of them are now one meter tall.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

tedburn

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2025, 04:48:09 PM »
Hello Ilya,
did you also report about your freeze test of this cross, how
much of the seeds survived after the test ? It would be interesting to
see some actual pictures of these crossed plants and there leave shapes.
Thanks Frank

Curiousgardener23

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2025, 11:41:20 PM »
Ilya11 that sounds like a really promising cross! I look forward to hearing about them.

bussone

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Re: So many enthusiasts and no one got the acid-free Siamese pomelo?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2025, 12:46:49 PM »

The real issue is that Poncirus tends to impart a horrible flavor, which is difficult to accurately describe.

Diesel, mixed with pine tar.

If it were only the pine tar, it would be usable. Retsinas are marketable despite the pine flavor.