Author Topic: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)  (Read 629 times)

Ellocot

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Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« on: August 11, 2023, 06:13:28 PM »
Solanum is full of a bunch of edible species.

"Eggplants" - Solanum aethiopicum, Solanum uporo, Solanum melongena - and other species.

There's also the whole clade with Naranjilla (Solanum quitoense), and Cocona (Solanum sessiliflorum).

Solanum lycocarpum - the wolf apple. Kangaroo apples - Solanum laciniatum and Solanum aviculare.

These are all some cool species, clades and the like.




But, I'd like to focus on Solanum lycopersicum, and it's relatives.

S. pimpinellifolium, S. cheesmaniae and S. galapagense. These would probably be species that a lot of people are aware of. That last ones a bit less known. And people sometimes present hybrids as the true species.


There's also, plenty of other species in the same clade as these. Sure, Pepinos - S. muricatum, probably belong in this clade.

But, they probably would need a few bridges to cross into tomatoes.

There's S. chmielewskii, S. peruvianum, S. arcanum, S. chilense, S. neorickii, S. corneliomulleri, S. huaylasense, S. habrochaites and S. pennellii

S. lycopersicoides and some others also would probably fit into the clade. There's also subsections and whatever.


S. neorickii, S. chmielewskii, S. arcanum, S. habrochaites, S. pennellii all seem to cross into common tomatoes without huge problems.

The main issue, is that the cross only goes one way.

Many of these wild species, are Self Incompatible. This means that they only accept pollen from other plants / can't be too genetically alike to form offspring.

Tomatillos tend to act the same way.

S. pimpinellifolium, S. cheesmaniae and S. galapagense are all self compatible for the most part.

The SI (Self Incompatible) species, also have their female organs highly exposed.

SC (Self Compatible) species, can sometimes have a slightly exserted female organ exposed - but it's usually not to any high extent.


It appears that the Self Compatible species, need to be the mother in many crosses with these wild species. It's very possible that the other species that have their female organs exposed, developed barriers to prevent other species from crossing over into them too much.

This does make hybrids a bit rare in some cases.

Generally the offspring is huge or very stunted. In one case a population absorbs beneficial genes and things go back to normal.


Many of these species are just used to bring over resistant genes.


Talks elsewhere, have been interesting though.

There's S. habrochaites accessions which have leaves that act as insecticides, efficient ones. And there's accessions which are hardy down to around 25F - they would still probably die back.

Capsicum flexuosum and some Physalis species are also hardy to similar regards. Same family as Solanum.

They also share the same issue that many backcrosses would be needed to carry over that hardiness.


But there's more. Different species also intake moisture from the air, and can survive almost entirely off that. Some species are very drought tolerant.

Some species have traits which would compliment each other in certain climates.

There's also species which impart new color / flavor genes, and added shelf life.

Did I forget to mention citronella scented or other scented sorts of leaves?

How about the fact that most purple tomatoes came from mixes of wild species, bred into tomatoes?

Also, try looking at some wild species flowers. They're larger than standard flowers - can rise up past the foliage, and have some orange markings or other traits on them.


Now, there is the issue of one gender not carrying over certain traits because it's not a mother / father. But, once you cross a species over into a high enough amount, it can typically begin to be able to cross into its mother father species or whatever.

So, its an issue but it can be worked against.


S. peruvianum and some other species are hard to cross into tomatoes.


There's also accessions of S. peruvianum which cross well into domestic tomatoes or ones which are self incompatible. And they'll still cross with other S. peruvianum which will not cross into tomatoes without embryo rescue.

The same goes for some other species in the clade.


Really messes with people's idea of what makes a species, a species.


The Self Incompatible trait and exserted traits have been picking up some traction in some circles.

These ensure that possible resistant traits and mutations are passed around / along a population of tomatoes.

It's also possible to bring along the cold hardy traits or make leaves and varieties which do better in certain climates.

Tomatoes are tropical plants being grown everywhere else.

So, different leaf types, root types and whatnot. Those can help prevent the issues that cause diseases in the first place.


Mission Mountain Sunrise, Exserted Tiger, Exserted Orange, Orange Hill and Big Hill are some known exserted varieties.

Some, or many have a lot of wild genes in them.















Exserted Tiger would be the fruit with stripes on it.

It's not very exserted. The other plant that I'm growing, is.

These tend to have the female organ sticking out, before the flower even first opens. So. It also makes crossing a lot easier.

The main issue may be having neighbors contaminating non exserted populations with things.


I've found that species with a ton of different species mixed into them, can tend to outcross to further semi related species sometimes. I wouldn't say that a Kangaroo apple cross or Pepino cross is out of the question with these things at some point.


Anyways, I noticed people mentioning that tomatoes are tropical fruits.

I also saw like one mention of Solanum peruvianum.

Most of the breeders who I know are using these for breeding, live in zones 4 - 7 for the most part. They usually can't successfully grow some species or they lose genes when crossing things because they're forced into one more adapted parents cycle or life span / etc.

Dunno if anyone here is interested in this.

I look at the exserted flowers as a "Oh I can do lazy crosses and just select for exserted offspring along with whatever traits I want."

Tomatoes also tend to give out more flowers than peppers or germinate faster - less of a hassle to breed with in my opinion.


I can go on a bit more if others are interested.

nullzero

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2023, 03:29:41 AM »
I am growing quite a bit of big hill x wildling offspring, a selection of the only remaining seedling from 2020. It produced large uniform fruits with great flavor and was producing into November with no die back or disease pressure. Now on gen, initial seed was from EFN. I have a bunch of other wildling and a gen 3 selection of Solanum peruvianum. I will post some pictures later.

I also have a superior Solanum nigrum selection I made years back from a park near LAX, large tasty fruit super productive. I observed rats feasting on the fruits and many bug holes on the leaves (Japanese beetles target them heavily, which makes a great trap plant for harvesting beetle fertilizer). These observations helped me select a highly edible fruit with low toxicity when eaten ripe.

I also grow Solanum opacum (green berry), I find the flavor ok on this one but not as good as the Solanum nigrum I have which tastes like blueberry. There is a possibility Solanum opacum could cross with Solanum nigrum, but I have not confirmed yet.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 03:31:59 AM by nullzero »
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Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2023, 05:53:37 AM »
Solanum retroflexum - the wonderberry.

Solanum scabrum - Garden huckleberry.

Solanum sarrachoides.

Solanum americanum.

Some of these species are related to S. nigrum and can probably cross. I actually might add a bit about them.

I've considered breeding different species together or attempting to do so, making bridges.

I'd grow the hybrids next to other Solanum hybrids, just to see if I can get lucky with all of the genetic scrambling.

Alberto Shatters and a few other S. pimpinellifolium accessions have literal pea sized fruits.

I wanted to try breeding a very small sized tomato, with small seeds and flowers - exserted ones. Seeds basically represent embryos.

My seed was contaminated, unfortunately. I let it all cross with an Everglades tomato. I was doing a Habrochaites x Alberto Shatters.


As you've said, S. nigrum fruits can taste like blueberries or just be very tasty. They're also full of anthocyanin, inside and out.

The whole clade is native to pretty much every continent and is seemingly somewhat all interfertile.










I may have tossed some seeds that I purchased awhile back in an area. Or these are native / feral plants.

Can't quite remember exactly. I dug them up and moved them. If they're what I tossed out, they may have been Solanum americanum, from a seller in Florida. Old seed that I never planted, forgot about.

It's invasive, but I'd also like to try getting genetics and different chromosome counts which would cross well into tomatoes. Preventing it from being eaten by birds would be nice.

S. nigrum by itself, even it's relatives. Making larger fruited specimens would take awhile.

That whole idea is just a dream goal.

Ideally I'd be breeding wild species into tomatoes and some species together into the S. nigrum complex at the same time.

Getting plants which are adapted to diseases which evolved on all sorts of continents, edible larger berries - tasty ones, larger ones - larger flowers and seeds.

That would be great. Some of those species are pretty exserted.


I think that I forgot to mention Solanum sisymbriifolium. It's been crossed with tomatoes using embryo rescue, in labs.


Some strains of species are edible, some aren't.

So I'd also need to make sure that if I ever did get a cross, that I'd have something completely non-toxic.

I frankly dislike most tomatoes. Wonderberries and whatnot taste pretty good, but they won't last on a shelf and blueberries are better for jams.


I'm not 100% sure of what these plants are in the photos. Hopefully S. americanum since that species works well in some crosses according to studies. And it's hard to find.



Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2023, 07:09:11 AM »
Exserted Tiger, Exserted Orange and a newer variety named Mission Mountain Sunrise appear to only be sold by Snake River Seed Cooperative.

Purple Smudge, has some S. peruvianum genetics if I remember correctly.

Double Rich has Michigan State Forcing and S. peruvianum as a parent.


Burnley Bounty has Grosse Lisse and Solanum peruvianum parentage. This one's considered a later blooming variety in Australia. It's frankly daylight sensitive. I take this to mean that it didn't have some Peruvianum genetics highly bred out of it.

I'm growing Burnley Bounty at the moment.

Payette should also have some sort of wild ancestry.


These tomatoes, unlike ones bred solely for disease resistance tend to still have certain genes / traits and weren't too heavily backcrossed to the point of removing some traits and things.


I sourced my Burnley Bounty from The Seed Stead. They have a sort of parent company based in Africa. They sell a lot of German, Australian and African seeds on their site.

I noticed Burnley Bounty - recognized the name.

Texas A&M University in 1963, donated Orange Fleshed Purple Smudge to the USDA. It was first listed in the Seed Savers Yearbook in 1984.





"What are the genes involved and where did they come from?

Aubergine (Abg), Anthocyanin fruit tomato (Aft) and atroviolaceae (atv) are genes introgressed from the wild species Solanum lycopersicoides, S. chilense, S. cheesemanii, respectively. The original introgression from wild species into cultivated tomato was done by other researchers. We discovered that when you combine these genes, you get an intensification of the pigment. The ‘Purple Smudge’ variety has a gene similar to Aft but it comes from a different wild species (S. peruvianum)."

https://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/oregon-vegetables/purple_tomato_faq


That's from the breeders of Indigo Rose and whatnot.

Solanum peruvianum has a different anthocyanin gene than the other species. A lot of these genes can be intermixed with one another, making for a very purple fruit.


I've mentioned purple smudge elsewhere and someone told me that it's a more natural thing than actual wild crosses.

The purple tomato plant breeding took off in around 2012. This just happens to be a pretty old hybrid.

It's also noted to be very disease and pest resistant.

It has purple shouldering. There are S. peruvianum accessions with full on deep purples.

Until myself or others get ahold of other varieties with fun S. peruvianum genes, I'd like to try crossing this into something.

And seeing if it works well in any of the wild tomato crosses. Even being crossed into a line that has Solanum pennellii could make a S. peruvianum bridge.


I wasn't aware that others here had grown the Experimental Farm Network Wildling and other fun crosses before. I had issues and planted mine all late.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2023, 06:05:35 PM »
Some relatives of Solanum:

Physalis
Jaltomata
Tubocapsicum
Capsicum
Lycium.

There are others.



https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-019-2358-9

Here's a link / study showing S. lycopersicum x Solanum sisymbriifolium - the litchi tomato.

Larger flowers are always cool.




There's been other crosses of interest made. Namely, Lycium hybrids.

https://www6.paca.inra.fr/psh/content/download/3888/41116/version/1/file/Master%202%20internship%20proposal%20-%20Tersys.pdf


http://www.agropolis-fondation.fr/GOJINOV

Some of these are PDF links.


Lycium barbarum and Lycium chinense are typically the species known as Goji berries.

Lycium ruthenicum is the black goji berry.

Lycium exsertum - Desert Wolfberry and Lycium berlandieri - Berlandier's Wolfberry, are some species native to the Americas.


If at all possible, I'd try crossing a bunch of Lyciums and making blue / anthocyanin types, plus ones full of genes from Asian and American species before attempting any form of hybridization attempts.

As mentioned before, diseases adapted and grew differently / seperate from each other on different continents.

Some pests or diseases target certain genes. Which means pests that target Lycium rather than Solanum could get out of hand.

My ideology would be to cross Solanums with things in the same clade, make superior populations. And then try and move them over to whatever.


I feel like Kangaroo apples and Solanum sisymbriifolium have a chance at crossing with one another, for example.

You could get rid of the thorns and things, and the woody seeds / steroidal compounds using these, before ever moving to tomato hybrids.



Plus. I kind of really like Kangaroo apple flowers. S. sisymbriifolium has the nicely sized flowers and all. But yeah.

One negative would be that there's S. carolinense nearby.

So hybrids may gain the ability to accept pollen from that.

The nice thing is that those fruits would taste vile and not really kill those who consume them.


This is outside of the Solanum grouping.


But, I figured that I'd share these here.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2023, 07:07:03 PM »
J&L Gardens:

Blue blazes tomato

Midnight tiger

Wild Tiger

Wild Cross

Copper Currant

Weight In Gold

Wild Gem

Wild Child

Muchacha!

Wilderness

Solanum habrochaites

Solanum peruvianum.


Restoration seeds:

Purple Smudge

Alberto Shatters

Wild - Solanum peruvianum


BakerCreek:

Sart roloise

White Beauty

Black Beauty

White Currant

Blue Cream Berries



Snake River Seed Co:

Mission Mountain Sunrise

Exserted Tiger

Exserted Orange

Payette (Maybe)


HRseeds:

Wild Hairy tomato, Solanum habrochaites

Wild Hairy Tomato Type 2, Lycopersicon hirsutum f. typicum, syn. Solanum habrochaites

Peruvian Wild Tomato, Solanum peruvianum

J.F. Macbr's Wild Tomato (LA1339) PI 365949, Solanum corneliomulleri

Wild Desert Tomato, Solanum chilense Type 1

Wild Desert Tomato, Solanum chilense Type 2

Wild Currant Tomato From Peru, Solanum pimpinellifolium

Galapagos Wild Tomato Minor Type 2, Solanum galapagense

Galapagos Island Tomato #2, Solanum cheesmanii

Galapagos Island Tomato Type 3, Solanum cheesmanii

Heirloom Reviews Woolly Currant Tomato (S. lycopersicum x galapagense hybrid population)

Galapagos Minor Cherry Tomato

Arcanum Pink Cherry Tomato, Solanum arcanum X (Possible Arcanum x Pimpinellifolium - still has the fun markings on the bottom of the fruit?)

Chmielewsky's Wild Tomato, Solanum chmielewskii

Wild Tomato, Solanum arcanum

LA0247 Small flowered Wild Tomato, Solanum neorickii

LA1272 Wild Tomato Solanum pennellii Type 1, PI 365970

Pepino Lloron, Solanum caripense (http://unusualediblesandtheirwildrelatives.blogspot.com/2018/07/rare-pepino-cousins-solanum-sect.html?m=1) this link shows a blogspot post. This would be the actual S. caripense with larger flowers, and that should be able to cross freely with Pepino - S. muricatum. I'm unsure if anyone has grown either version here, but the website shows some image comparisons.

Finding seed for the actual version is a bit tricky.

This site also sells Solanum aviculare and Solanum laciniatum. Kangaroo apples. Plus some nightshades and things.

The seeds can be pricey. And keep in mind that these aren't isolated plants, so the sold seeds can sometimes contain hybrids.


I'm simply listing websites and sellers, because varieties can differ seller to seller. And because some accessions differ seller to seller on which one they have.

Also the Black Beauty / White Beauty thing. J&L bred Midnight Tiger. I wanted to try and compare anthocyanin levels between the varieties. I looked at my list and saw White Beauty and Black Beauty. I quite liked the taste of white Beauty. Didn't mark those this way on purpose.

Plus yeah I'd ideally get a white tomato with anthocyanin over top of it, fruity flavors. Orange and reds have actual flavors attached to them. Not the biggest fan.

White Currant has a sort of see-through fruit, not the same white as white Beauty. I can't recall if blue cream berries is semi see through or not. But, in tomatoes anthocyanin is expressed where sunlight hits the foliage / fruit. So, being see-through could be highly beneficial to having the inner parts of the fruit getting some purple in them.

Sart roloise is supposed to taste good. I wanna compare it with White Beauty. If it tastes the same or very similar, I won't use White Beauty to cross into whatever. One has antho genes, which I want - it's already stable in one of them.


I'll mention the Big Purple Tomato / High Antioxidant Purple Tomato, from Norfolk Healthy Produce. If I remember correctly it's a GMO that has some Impatiens genes mixed into it. Basically it'll produce anthocyanin, all throughout the fruit. It's been tested and trialed for over 20+ years.

My main problem with GMOs is that you can't breed with them and they're mainly made to withstand being doused with toxins.

Their variety, anyone can breed with it and sell it, make varieties. The creators want a healthy tomato.

This would be an exception to not having anthocyanin all throughout the tomato.

I may grow their products. They've been making different lines. I'd probably grow them in pots and isolate them from everything else. Not everyone likes GMOs. And these are only approved for the United States.

Growing these pretty much screws over those who are making patented anthocyanin tomatoes.

My issue with GMOs is the mentioned stuff.

I won't start a debate here, but I figured that I'd mention that.


Ideally I'd still get a S. nigra or whatever other hybrid as mentioned and get a more natural full anthocyanin trait at some point. There's still disease resistances and whatnot in them.

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2023, 12:07:11 PM »














































I'm sorry for the boatload of images here.

I grew Litchi tomato (Solanum sisymbriifolium) in-between S. peruvianum, S. habrochaites and interspecific hybrids.

I grew out every fruits seed. And I selected anything off type, into a group and planted them out together.

I planted these late into the season.

We moved before these could ripen any fruits. Seemed later than the usual type I had.


So no. I don't have seed to share, unfortunately.

I'm unsure if these were hybrids or not. But, I liked them.

I also grew S. aviculare and S. laciniatum together that same year around it, hoping for hybrids.

Figured I'd share these. I haven't shared these too much, as I got sorta upset at the fact that I didn't manage to save seed.

Some plants were short and fuzzy / weird leaves. Plus the smaller flowers or other odd traits.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2023, 02:18:38 PM »
Biggest oddity was the fuzzy leaves, even as plants grew larger.

Bunch of those fuzzy leaved ones, also grew slower or branched outwards rather than upwards.


I grow Kangaroo apples and Litchi tomatoes, plus Solanum peruvianum, habrochaites and some other wilds - near / next to the vegetable garden. But they're as flowers rather than for food.

I can't stand the woody seeds in litchi tomatoes. I have the same issue with raspberries and blackberries seeds. Black raspberry seeds were better.

Kangaroo apples do have steroidal compounds and aren't something I'd eat in huge quantities.

They also support a lot of weight. Kangaroo apples are somewhat heavy for their size. And they are cherry tomato sized, but grow on upright plants in clusters - naturally.

Plus the purple flowers are very nice.

For looks, I prefer Solanum laciniatum. Aviculare has smaller flowers.

I should be able to just grow S. habrochaites and Litchi tomatoes, and Kangaroo apples close together.

I may do the same with S. peruvianum. Some of these grow outwards and spread, low to the ground.

Diseases could be more prevalent. But, I'll keep an eye on them. This is just a test. Or will be one.


The Litchi flowers, while some were pretty off type per plant. If these were hybrids, it's possible that the white color is dominant.

I'd say I'm unsure about the hybrid status. The link of a hybrid that I posted before, had younger plants with more intermediate foliage. But, Habrochaites leaves or another species of plant may have different dominant or whatever leaves.

White flowers do seem to be dominant, according to that experiment.

nullzero

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2023, 03:33:01 PM »


Here is a picture of one of my best grow outs of S. peruvianum. This one has great flavor and larger fruit with good production clusters of fruit. The fruit is a medium sized cherry tomato.

I am actively saving seeds, so if there is interested I may be able to share. This is grown out from a batch of Joseph Lofthouse selections of it, via EFN.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2023, 12:29:20 AM »
I went on my desktop and found some Peruvianum and other species.



I grew Peruvianums out from Joseph's group and found a plant that smelled like lemons, the large one smelled like cinnamon.

I seperated these from the others, based on them growing much faster than other plants or having noticeably unique or different leaf types than most of the others.





I believe these were the fruits. I need to label plants with identifiers and label them as whatever instead of making crosses then making subfiles with whatever groups.


The fruits did look a bit odd.

I really liked how the cinnamon one smelled and grew. It didn't outpace disease as fast as some other plants, but it did seem to stay alive and eventually made a comeback outside.

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2023, 12:34:19 AM »
Here's Solanum chmielewskii.

It's not used a ton in breeding. Most other plant species seem to have better disease resistant traits or other nice things compared to it.

It smelled nice to me. And its flowers had a ton of pollen or whatever. It glistened.

Super fuzzy leaves.

Relatively easy to grow - at least the one I got from HRseeds was.













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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2023, 12:39:24 AM »
Solanum habrochaites, grew a few different types one year.













One accession had darker green fruit - green shouldering I'd say.

That darker green one also grew slower, wasn't as disease resistant as the other and had fuzzy leaves.

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2023, 12:42:58 AM »
Solanum chilense and S. pennellii (pennellii is in the last image).











I grew two types / accessions of Chilense.

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2023, 12:51:19 AM »
Wild Currant Tomato From Peru - a Solanum pimpinellifolium accession, which I took an interest in.

Solanum retroflexum - Wonderberry, a wild and cultivated Physalis (these images and things I'm posting are from when I lived in Pennsylvania) plus Solanum habrochaites fruit in some images as a fruit size comparison.

Unlike Alberto Shatters, this tomato has pretty glossy leaves.

Fruits are roughly the same size. I noticed one has its fruits drop and rot, the other tends to explode / crack when ripe.

















Added some Kangaroo apples in the image too. Why not.



I was happy with the smaller flowers, seed size and things on this accession.

I was trying to cross it with Solanum habrochaites in order to get some Exserted traits on a small flower.

Makes breeding lot easier. Has anyone ever tried to emasculate something with super small flowers? It's not fun.



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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2023, 01:08:45 AM »
The Wild Currant Tomato From Peru, also had exserted flowers, not super exserted. But they had that going on. It wasn't on every flower, but it was on at least half of all of its flowers. This allows for crosses to happen every now and again out in nature.

I saw an opportunity and figured I'd save as many seeds as possible while it was growing to Solanum habrochaites.


I grew some stuff indoors as a test. Frankly, the fruits as shown in the previous post had wonderberry sized fruits. They had no actual flesh. I'm not exaggerating. Cutting the fruit open, it's juice, skin and some slime and water plus the seeds. Harvesting the things was fun. You make any indent or hole in these? They burst the seeds out.

And they're too small to actually cut easily. By that, I mean they're full of water as mentioned.

I cut womderberries open, they're slightly mushy and have some give to them.

These little guys though. Their skin is just thick enough, and full of enough water and slime, that it gives some resistance against a knife or anything. So it explodes. It doesn't explode a little bit. It slingshots onto walls and anything else.


Small rant there over.

I'll post the plants that I grew indoors.



















I grew some off type plants. It's easy to tell in the F1 crosses if anything crossed.

I had some obvious domestic tomato crosses.

One of these plants had those nice pale looking flowers.

These had thick skin, they were kinda orange. Parent was red. And they were very watery and tasted horrible. They had a sour taste to them, but not a normal sour.

My best guess was that I had some S. habrochaites crosses or cross.

F1 interspecific hybrids can look different. That's because genes do all sorts of weird stuff when they cross into another species.

One habrochaites that I grew had white flesh, but a lot of green overtones which covered that up.

Another just seemed to be green.

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2023, 01:14:20 AM »
The image with a penny has the most common / prevalent S. habrochaites that I grew that year, next to the orange fruited hybrid.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2023, 01:38:35 AM »
Apologies if I spammed a bit.





















Some bonus images.

Black Goji berry - Lycium ruthenicum. Plus Fresh - Lycium exsertum - Desert Wolfberry (I think? Seller called it Sonoran Goji Berry). Those were the ones growing in cells. Lycium barbarum and Lycium chinense seeds didn't germinate for me.

I had seen reports of some labs growing Lycium x Lycopersicon hybrids. Goji berries are healthy. They're also eaten dried and don't taste all that wonderful. Plus they're small.

I was worried if some of those species would even survive USDA Zone 6a. No longer have them. As mentioned before, I'd be letting bees potentially cross different Lyciums together, while I work on other hybrids. And hopefully those hybrids are more open to taking in the pollen of other hybrids.

The leaf comparison image.

The blue box with the most leaves, had either Solanum pimpinellifolium or S. lycopersicum.  Purple was Solanum chmielewskii. Red was Solanum peruvianum.

The pointed leaf Peruvianum, is the same one that smelled of Cinnamon. Started it indoors very early as a test along with others.

It grew out much like Joseph's Habrochaites does, differently from his Peruvianums. Leaves were sorta fuzzy but not super fuzzy.


Add that to the list of stuff that I wish I didn't lose seed for. Plus the fruits from it that I posted here seemed odd for the population. Oh yeah, I hardly ever got much fruit from it. The flowers kept dropping.

Towards the end of the year I ignored the plant, but eventually found the fruits were on the plant and some had dropped.


The leaves outside of the box, were Solanum habrochaites.

I checked various plants and tried finding different leaves from them all. Then I'd find the largest, oldest leaves per specimen plants and see what their max leaf sizes were.


For the Peruvianum types, I singled out specimens that were very rare leaf types for the population as mentioned.

I let them grow a bit in pots. If they still seemed vastly different from the others, I'd plant them outside together.


The issue with growing these in huge fields, is that plants can be missed - especially hybrids. And growing a hybrid among a bunch of Peruvianums? The next generation may be mixed into that species.

You want a cross to be pollinated again with the same father as before, if it's a Peruvianum mother.


I added an odd fruit comparison image thing that I made for some reason as well. Plus some images of insects visiting flowers.

The Roma looking tomatoes, are Solanum corneliomulleri from J&L Gardens.

They had a lot of issues growing at first. I seperated the off type seedlings into a pot. They gave me those Roma shaped things.

Interspecfic hybrids can often be slower to take off or have other issues compared to same species hybrids. Sometimes they're still vigorous.


I hope that someone enjoys these images.


Still bummed about what I lost.




Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2023, 01:51:19 AM »
I'd like to mention that the Peruvianums, I did a very small grow out of them. I'd accidentally bought one packet and lost it. Then I found the other after having bought another packet.

I'm more organized now.

Anyways. I didn't grow a ton of plants, but I grew enough for proper pollination.

I didn't start any others at the time that I started S. habrochaites.

Frankly didn't have room that year for more plants.

And yeah. I let those plants grow however they want.

I wasn't watering them really at all, after they were established either.

I was doing root comparisons. One Habrochaites accession had semi thick, smaller than domestic tomato roots, that spiraled outwards and downwards in all directions.

Very long roots.

I was trying to see if these plants would be able to survive a winter. I gave up on that, because 6a was too cold to hope for that. Plus perennial tomatoes in that climate would've been a disease vector.

pagnr

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2023, 03:15:51 AM »
Apart from crossing for hybrids, have you considered grafting ?? Hardy rootstocks could increase the productivity of existing Tomato cultivars.

Another possibility is graft chimeras, this has been done for Tomato X S.nigrum.  Budding is done so that a combination shoot grows out, creating a hybrid.

nullzero, what is the source of your Solanum opacum ?? It grows wild around here in Australia, probably unnoticed as most people would think it is introduced S.nigrum.

nullzero

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2023, 09:45:09 AM »
Was fairdinkumseeds.com for the source of Solanum opacum.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2023, 05:30:54 PM »
I've considered grafts.

Those, in my opinion work short term for things.

I'd prefer to cross species, and create hybrids which outcross constantly - simply because this would give me diverse populations, and I'd have better anthocyanin types, flowers and other things.

There's also new flavors to be considered.


With grafts, you can grow a wild species or hybrid, the tomato grafted onto it and that tomato variety next to each other as a test.

The grafted plant will almost always be weaker than the plant its grafted onto.

This can make a vector for disease or allow for viruses and things to catch up to a resistant trait, when normally they may be repelled before they can do so.

Mix that in with these being grown in large fields and whatnot.

A lot of resistant traits don't last long in agriculture.



With outcrossing plants and wide hybrids, they'd be having mutations and they'd contain traits that both species or groups have.

With continents being a thing, and isolation - you can factor in that some species adapted to things after thousands or even millions of years of separation from some relatives.

These eventually get introduced to these siblings which branched off at some point.

We are starting to see introduced diseases, adapt to infect things like Capsicum or tomatoes and the like.

Typically diseases / viruses will target certain genes or things. They also tend to adapt and change randomly.


It's also not a one way streak. Tomatoes and things carry viruses which don't harm them, but can harm eggplants or other solanum species.


I've seen some newer viruses, there isn't a cure for some of them. Plants and fruits just die off. And it harms multiple species.


I've also been reading some people cheering about how one or two resistant genes have been found in wild tomato relatives.

That's great.

That's also horrible. Usually the "wow great!" from a scientific viewpoint would be that they've found multiple resistant traits that form a network and repel some diseases or pests. Or that they've found hundreds of resistant genes.


I'd say that after new tomatoes hit some markets with resistant genes, you have 5 - 10 years before the virus trumps that immunity or resistant trait.

Then you either have a "Oh, we have two traits left!" or you're left in the "tomatoes may go extinct without GMO intervention, and nobody can save their seeds and these immunities will probably be trumped just as quickly as the others" approach.


Breeding with some species has a lot of holes. There are old interspecific hybrids, which were crossed and backcrossed over and over again. These are now considered heirlooms which stand up to modern hybrids or grafted plants.

Like hybrids from the 1940s do well today.


Modern hybrids, don't take as long to create.

For one, people may make hybrids and then use them as grafts, as mentioned. They aren't stable hybrids but they have a bunch of labeled or marked disease resistances which were confirmed in labs to be present.


Before this became widely prevalent, people introduced diseases or just crossed things over and over again.

This meant that entire plant networks or various novel traits or other things, were intermixed. With modern hybrids, the plants usually get crossed with something and then a single gene is the only thing that the breeders care about.


Species with resistances, their resistant traits are usually backed by multiple traits or they're supplemented by them.

Species which have brand new viruses flung at them, multiple deadly ones. Ones not from where they're from.

They have little to no mixtures of multiple resistances.


I'd also like to note, that things like late blight and early blight have been tested in labs. These tests seemed to show that they're both able to merge or form together because they're similar viruses. Eventually they'll probably end up having a novel strain mix together out in nature.


With grafts, the graft plants are typically nearly genetically identical.

And they're used to graft a very large number of tomatoes and things.

Varieties which don't outcross are also susceptible to becoming extinct from eventual disease or things, because they aren't continually crossing with each other, single plants with a helpful mutation aren't spread all across a population.


Tomatillos, Kangaroo apples, most potatoes, Solanum nigrum and most other Solanum species have something in common. Tomatillos are Physalis. Capsicum species also prefer to outcross.

They're all slightly exserted with their flowers or very exserted and require ourcrossing.

Domestic tomatoes were bred outside of Peru and South America, to have varieties which won't outcross at all.

I did some Solanum pimpinellifolium tests, with saving fruit and planting out seed. But yes, I had some other hybrids pop up. Pretty sure that one looked a lot like Reisetomate - another variety that I grew.

These hybrids were very vigorous. The habrochaites ones, were stunted. By vigorous, I mean they outpaced both parents.

Out in nature, this means that these plants with bring in new traits from another population every now and again because the offspring becomes massive and they have the slight outcrossing chance.

If people aren't eating the fruits of things, or it's birds and things doing so, the chance of hybrid offspring being planted or sowed, drastically increases.

Solanum cheesmanii and galapagense, seemed to become exserted after being subjected to insect damage and blight when I grew them.

I'd also like to mention that many Cheesmanii, Galapagense and Pimpinellifolium species which are sold online, are hybrids which were made with types brought over from South America and stabilized into non outcrossing stable hybrids.

Now, Joseph Lofthouse.

He's said some similar stuff.


Basically, create fields of tomatoes and things that outcross, save seed from a ton of them. And watch for hybrids or plants that repel certain diseases, attract the most insects.

This makes sure that brand new mutations that come from interspecific hybrids or novel mixtures which can be resistant to diseases, thrive. And they spread throughout a population.

To me, grafted plants are novelties.

Using them in excess, a disease could wipe them all out within a year or two after it comes into existence.

And again, Australia, Europe and other countries have diseases which could adapt to infect tomatoes at any moment and just chew through them.

Tomatoes are grown far away out of South America.

Joseph's project also presented that some tomatoes leaves and leaf sizes, and other traits make them better suited to different zones or climates in the United States.

They're still tropical plants being grown anywhere else.

Having plants which are more adapted towards the area that you live in, makes them less prone to being disease and whatnot.


My main issue, is that I don't think that the Lycopersicon clade is enough to deal with all of these diseases and things.

I believe that we are a bit too late on doing these sort of projects, and that by the time these are made - they'll be swamped with diseases or there will only be GMO tomatoes being grown for the most part.


But, a project that brings over Solanum sisymbriifolium traits, traits from the Solanum nigrum complex.

And completely moves over a ton of traits at some point from them.

These, are already immune to diseases that they'd be getting hit with.

It's also true that crossing species introduces new viruses into a species that wasn't being infected previously.

Viruses target genes for the most part and cling to or seek them out.

Insects usually help transport them.


Using the proposed projects, it's probably possible to let barriers reform, and have growers from certain regions, mostly only growing certain types.

They'd still outcross with plants from elsewhere every so often.

Honestly, a small lab could probably artificially make some weak barriers for different varieties or for things like Romas and cherry tomatoes or different flavored tomatoes.


But, I feel like not letting these outcross will eventually make tomatoes rely on lab intervention or just they'll just go extinct.


Castanea dentata, the American Chestnut used to be very widespread. An introduced tree, caused issues and this one is critically endangered.

There are Castanea species in North America which haven't really been affected by the disease as well. Eventually, they may be infected or harmed. Or they'll stay immune.

There's a lot of arguing and things about this species. For one, about Chinese Chestnut hybrids.

Some people are purists and want any hybrids destroyed. They want to find a single tree or groups of trees and mix them together, survivors from the blights.

I'd suggest growing hybrids and surviving trees together, their offspring. And select for things that native animals and things dislike or that are toxic. That statement is a wide reach to other sorts of species.

It's actually possible to breed butterflies which are immune or don't mind some toxins. Animals would be a pain, but they usually figure things out or survive poisonings themselves.


I'm bringing this up, because this project would probably cause damage to wild populations.

So, I'd recommend trying to allow hybrids to cross into different populations while doing this.


It's already been shown that many species face dangers from introduces diseases and things. Dutch elm disease for example.

Bananas died off in some countries, they were brought back but eventually regrown in fields which had traces of the disease that wiped them all out, still in the soil.

Doesn't help that most bananas are old clones and genetically the same.


Ideally I'd be doing these sorts of projects with multiple species and things other than Solanum.


I may or may not try out grafting.

But, I just figured that I'd bring this thought process of mine up and whatnot. I have a disdain for grafts to an extent.

This is a tropical fruit forum, so I'd imagine that a lot of people make them.

But, they sometimes rub me that wrong way.

A graft chimera could create an interesting flower structure and allow for crosses in either direction.

The actual seeds and genes don't change in those chimeras if I remember correctly. But, the flower structures and other things may be beneficial.

Plus I've probably explained a large reasoning for this project here.

I wasn't aware of the chimera, I may try that out just for fun or to see how it looks.



I've also seem Solanum opacum on fairdinkum seeds. They have a lot of interesting Solanum species. Didn't see a mention of Phytosanitary stuff on their site though.

I believe that species is possibly endangered in a lot of Australia.

nullzero

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2023, 11:47:46 PM »
Solanum opacum is less vigorous then the Solanum nigrum by quite a bit. The flavor is ok it does have some papaya like tastes however it is not even close to as sweet as the Solanum nigrum selection I have. I am not sure if the 2 hybridized but most likely can?
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2023, 09:35:37 PM »
Found a bunch of Solanum aviculare and laciniatum images that I took awhile back.




























I've realized that some species lack any images of different angles or parts of themselves.


Now, the largest difference between Solanum aviculare and laciniatum.

One, has huge flowers. The other has smaller flowers. Laciniatum and aviculare, respectfully.

Laciniatum was much more disease resistant than aviculare and grew taller and flowered more heavily for me. And it's fruits matured more quickly.

These were growing next to the Solanum habrochaites and Solanum sisymbriifolium one year.

I posted habrochaites flowers which had decided to pop up while it's stems used the Kangaroo apple as a trellis or support.

Solanum laciniatum and aviculare can hybridize, fairly easily.

There are other Kangaroo apples out there, which can also hybridize.

Some are diploids or whatever else, but can still cross.

Backcrosses are usually still possible, can rebuild certain ploidy counts.


These having differing whatevers, and still being able to cross makes them great potential bases for potential crosses.

Flower sizes and things can depend on a plant having multiple copies or whatever or being ancient hybrids.


There's actually a toxic relative in Australia that I'd like to cross these with.

I can't remember it's name at the moment.

But, it has male flowers. It has female flowers. And it has hermaphrodite flowers. All on one plant if I recall.

It does a few other interesting things too.


It confuses the heck out of botanists.

With humans, I've seen people get tripped up after learning that there are a lot of people who aren't just XY or XX - there's XXY, XYY, XXYY. And they're different than intersex people.

Usually you can look at XY or XX and say "that's a boy / girl!"

Even with only having the same single genders, you can still also have females and males who both fall into these differing whatevers. Males are much more common.

People seem to get bugged out when they learn about that.

With Gorillas, it's thought that that they had some chromosome doubling and those merged at some point. So they're at 48 chromosomes.


Oh yeah I'm pretty good with finding odd mutants or hybrids and things out in nature. I've found yellow fruited, red elderberries whose leaves were all messed up.

Or a possible chokecherry - sweet cherry cross.


Anyways. The Kangaroo apple relative, boggles scientists.

They can't figure out a why, as to it having differing sexual systems all in a single plant.

It could be to attract insects to the female flowers which put out more of whatever.

The hermaphrodite flowers still probably cross with other plants. The male flowers are seen as useless.

Unfortunately it's fruit is toxic.

If I could get my hands on the species, I'd try making it non toxic while retaining its interesting flowering type.


I mentioned the Gorilla stuff for a reason.

There are Solanum species with the exact same strands of genes and things, but they're found on different chromosomes or there's multiple copies of then.

This is likely due to ancient hybridization and mutations shifting things - and chromosomes which are nearly identical due to copying an identical strand, fusing.


So, it happens with plants and animals.

Kangaroo apples are quite nice. Dunno if anyone else has ever grown them.

Ellocot

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Re: Solanum Species (Mainly close relatives of tomato)
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2023, 09:58:22 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_plastisexum

Wikipedia link.

Solanum plastisexum.

It was described and labeled in 2019.

I actually don't know if it's toxic. But yeah.


It's something that I'd like to get my hands on.

It's considered to have threw types of breeding systems. Hermaphrodite doesn't fit. Nor do other terms.

I haven't heard of animals like this. Even mutations or things wouldn't work or be possible in humans.

But hearing that something like this exists is very interesting.


 

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