Author Topic: Riddle me this..  (Read 1730 times)

850FL

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Riddle me this..
« on: March 02, 2021, 02:59:43 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:10:25 PM by 850FL »

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 03:01:25 PM »
How can a polyembryonic mango seed have such pronounced difference in cold tolerance between the two embryos? I assume these were from an ataulfo seed (the only poly mango seeds I have easy access to)..

Slightly larger more robust (clonal?) seedling almost completely fried and stumped.

Whereas immediately next to it the smaller (fertilized?) embryo seedling only had minor damage on the most tender growth..

2 wks after 10 hour snap <32F.. 5 hours @ 23-25F.. very little overhead protection..

All larger 3-7 ft seedling saplings stumped. I thought they were all fine until a few days passed and the real damage appeared. Only a couple other unprotected 1ft seedlings came through nearly unscathed like this, but I’ll be keeping a close eye on those in the future. What’s funny is my efforts to protect the larger mangos was useless..





Could degree of dormancy achieved by each embryo, or sets of ‘cold hardiness’ genes be responsible??
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:11:06 PM by 850FL »

Viking Guy

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2021, 03:42:31 PM »
It is possible that the fertilized sprout was fertilized by a colder hardy (is cold hardy mango a thing?  ;D ), and carried over the genetic markers which provided some uncharacteristic cold tolerances not present in the clonal sapling.

That, or perhaps a micro climate of some sort enveloped it with enough protection to keep it alive.  Maybe a reflective type of material/warm wind coming from the house. Although, I would be more inclined to believe it's is simply a pollination improvement.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:46:57 PM by Viking Guy »

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2021, 01:03:11 AM »
All exposed, no house around. A fence and a leyland nearby, but that made no real difference (perhaps slight wind blockage but no actual temperature or overhead frost protection),  because the other little mangos I stuck right up on the fence still had severe damage and stumping. Hell, most of the mangos I  put a lot of effort to mound with leaves still succumbed too.
If you were thinking that the surviving embryo might’ve had a slightly better microclimate than the fried one 1cm away from it I gotta say that’s a bit absurd bro haha
Genetics definitely played a role. No idea what the mother tree was pollinated by.
Also, mangos being subtropical, I believe require a certain number of ‘cool hours’ to flower normally (like 200 hrs under 60F I think? Correct me if I’m wrong..) so, mangos do contain some expression of cool or cold hardiness, given that information

What weirded me out though, was that the 3 or so survivor seedling mangos held off the frost just as good or better than many seedling lychees and longans. Survivor mangos actually held off better than almost every seedling annona (cherimoyas & atemoyas) by what seems like a long shot.

‘Cold hardy’ is such a broad term though, cold hardy to what 30F 10F or -20F?? Lol. But the way I use it pretty much means if it drops to  20F the dam thing ain’t gonna die LOL

You should start doing what I’m attempting, just plant a ton of mango seeds and let the freezes get most of them. Pretty much planned on this happening, even though it does involve much cringing when most get zapped
And, even if they do pull through to maturity there’s no telling if or what they’ll produce..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 07:50:26 AM by 850FL »

Galatians522

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2021, 08:18:06 AM »
My guess would be drought incuced hardiness. This is indeed a "thing," and has been seen in citrus and lychee. Why not mango? If you read the history of the Pickering mango, it was originally selected by the Zills because of apparent cold hardiness after a freeze in south Florida. However, mature trees did not vary significantly in hardiness from other mango trees.

While it might be possible to select for hardier mangoes, you can't select for genes that are not there. Mango leaves are used cerimonially in India and have been grown for centuries (if not milenia) in areas colder than their typical adaptation. I would assume that if a hardier tree exists, it is most likely to be found in India. I am skeptical (although on can't entirely rule out the possibility) that we in the US will achieve something in a few years that has not been done in India over the thousands of years that mangoes have been grown there.

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2021, 11:15:07 AM »
My guess would be drought incuced hardiness.
The pots are 1ft away from a running stream, where the ground never dries, and I nestle every pot a couple inches down into the ground so that osmosis will keep them ambiently moist, so that I almost never have to water (except maybe when fertilizing).. I considered that thought at first but.. there has definitely not been a recent drought or a 'localized' drought in any of those pots.
It rained a bunch before these freezes anyway..

Quote
This is indeed a "thing," and has been seen in citrus and lychee. Why not mango? If you read the history of the Pickering mango, it was originally selected by the Zills because of apparent cold hardiness after a freeze in south Florida. However, mature trees did not vary significantly in hardiness from other mango trees.
I did see a video where Zill mentioned that, but I did not know the apparent colder hardiness was only relevant to his original tree as a young sapling.
However I must ask, did the original* Pickering not display superior cold tolerance when it got bigger, or was it grafted* Pickerings that did not display superior cold tolerance when they got larger?
Maybe turpentine and other r/s's promote less cold hardiness when grafted.
Maybe enhanced 'wind wicking' caused the supposed decrease in hardiness as the tree got larger? (assume what's in bold is true)
Quote
While it might be possible to select for hardier mangoes, you can't select for genes that are not there. Mango leaves are used cerimonially in India and have been grown for centuries (if not milenia) in areas colder than their typical adaptation. I would assume that if a hardier tree exists, it is most likely to be found in India. I am skeptical (although on can't entirely rule out the possibility) that we in the US will achieve something in a few years that has not been done in India over the thousands of years that mangoes have been grown there.

Very true! Curious if the USDA or any other ag organization has/had sent experts out to Asia to document or 'discover' potential anomalies like this (in reference to, at least, mangos)? I know Brewster scoured the extent of the lychee range (<--supposedly but I doubt actually obtained & brought back the cold hardiest ones. He should have brought back 'sour, mountainous, more hardy (did Swingle comment this?)' marcotts, if not for fruit then at least for future breeding projects. Ugh), but I'm not familiar with any other explorers who had a similar mission as Brewster..
Did Swingle and his explorer colleagues ever consider this 'agenda', or were they only sent out to bring back generalized, potentially-commercial species that the US didn't have at the time?
(basically meaning, were they not too concerned with aquiring subvarieties on the extremes of temperature tolerance spectrums and such?)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:46:35 AM by 850FL »

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2021, 11:20:17 AM »
Perhaps one could start planting many hundreds or thousands of seeds of mangos from varieties (both known and obscure) already naturalized around the margins of the mango growing areas of India?
Is there info concerning this already been attempted?

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 11:23:10 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:24:50 AM by 850FL »

Galatians522

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 09:59:27 PM »
I don't know the answers to all your questions, but Brewster did indeed bring back a number of other lychee cultivars from China. Among them was Shan Chi (a sour mountain lychee) used for rootstock. The lychee that eventually bore his name (originally gifted to him by the Chen family) was among the hardiest lychees of apreciable quality. Brewster if I recall correctly believed it to be a natural hybrid with Shan Chi and another unknown lychee of good quality. At the end of the day Brewster was a Christian missionary who loved the Chinese people, not a fruit explorer. In return for the love he showed them, they shared with him some of their most valued possessions--their lychee trees. I suppose that it is still possible that there are wild type lychees that are even more cold tollerent than Brewster, but such trees would not have been likely to have been gifted to him by his Chinese friends.

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2021, 11:28:53 PM »
Oh okay makes more sense now. The sources I read were real brief so I kind of connected the dots, or tried to...

Well it seems like I'm gonna have to source a pure Shan Chi somewhere-- upon inspection today, the frost had cracked many smaller limbs on all marcotted sapling lychees- including Brewsters! Mauritius suffered the worst, followed by Sweetheart and Brewsters at around the same rate.. most limbs about middle-finger-caliper and smaller (i dont have a tool) cracked. However, I think a lot of the limbs have a chance of recovering. I may have to drench them in sulfur soon to repel pests n fungus though. Not looking forward to another annoying freeze event like this- really need a Shan.. I hope the Hap Ik I just got in will hold up a little better than my current others..
On a better note- none of the 100+ seedling lychees cracked one bit- just leaf damage on some. The stronger root systems on these seedlings must play a role in regulating freeze damage..

Galatians522

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2021, 10:43:29 PM »
The only legal source that I know of for Shan Chi (due to Florida's lychee import restrictions) is the USDA germplasm repository in Miami. However, I believe that they are quarenteened right now due to the erinose mite and may not grant a request from an average person like you and me. I don't think it would be worth your time--it has a big seed and sour flesh from what I understand. I think the Haak Yip will have similar cold tollerence to the SweetHeart.

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2021, 10:17:58 PM »
The only legal source that I know of for Shan Chi (due to Florida's lychee import restrictions) is the USDA germplasm repository in Miami. However, I believe that they are quarenteened right now due to the erinose mite and may not grant a request from an average person like you and me. I don't think it would be worth your time--it has a big seed and sour flesh from what I understand. I think the Haak Yip will have similar cold tollerence to the SweetHeart.
You think emperor would be any better off than Blackleaf and Sweetheart?

Galatians522

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2021, 07:46:34 PM »
I do think Emperor might be slightly more cold tollererent, but that is only a hypothesis. What I can say for sure is that you will be much more likely to pick fruit from Emperor in your location because of its later bloom time. We have had bloom frozen off the early bloomers (Sweet Heart and Hak Yip) even in 9b with freeze protection.

850FL

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2021, 08:10:28 PM »
Man, these things can be a real hassle.
I was looking into other potential fruits and came across wampee, if you know anything about that? It seems to have about the same cold tolerance and care as lychee. However it's in the citrus family, so do you think it would fare any better than lychee in my (or even your) parts?

Since I am seeming to have a lot more luck with seedling lychees vs named marcotts, I was also thinking of just purchasing wampee (and all other marginal fruits) in fruit or seed form as opposed to grafted and marcotted specimens, and trying my luck with a bunch of those instead.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 08:13:08 PM by 850FL »

Galatians522

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Re: Riddle me this..
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2021, 09:08:48 PM »
I know of Wampee, but the only tree that I have ever seen in person was at the fruit and spice park. I've never seen one around here.

 

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