The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Pouteria_fan on October 25, 2022, 03:17:08 PM
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Hi all,
I recently read this journal article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7156197/
Kaas B, Hillis AE, Pantelyat A. Progressive supranuclear palsy and pawpaw. Neurol Clin Pract. 2020 Apr;10(2):e17-e18. doi: 10.1212/CPJ.0000000000000704. PMID: 32309040; PMCID: PMC7156197.
"The patient died due to aspiration 5 years after symptom onset. Subsequently, his wife disclosed that he had habitually consumed pawpaw fruit from their family-owned nursery, starting 5 years prior to symptom onset and continuing until his death (10 years total). She estimated that he had consumed up to 13.6 kg of raw fruit annually over the five-year period prior to death."
That's about 30 lbs of fruit, which I imagine is not that much when spread out over 5 years, especially if you have a fruit forest.
"Annonacin is present in the fruit, leaves, and bark of plants belonging to the Annonaceae family, which includes Annona muricata (soursop) and Asimina triloba (pawpaw).4 Pawpaw is native to the eastern United States and southern Canada and is the only fruit-bearing annonaceous plant widely distributed in North America. A recent regional increase in pawpaw's popularity is concerning in light of studies demonstrating the neurotoxicity of annonacin as well as possible associations with the development of neurodegenerative disease. A 1999 case–control study in Guadeloupe described an association between regular consumption (at least monthly, for at least 2 years) of fruit and tea from annonaceous plants and diagnosis of an akinetic-rigid parkinsonian disorder resembling PSP, with the PSP-like patients more likely to have reported routine consumption of these plant products compared to patients with Parkinson's disease (odds ratio 5.98, 95% CI 1.05–34.22).5 This study also reported an unusual prevalence of atypical parkinsonism in this population: of 87 consecutive patients presenting with parkinsonism, only 25% presented as idiopathic Parkinson disease. A smaller 2004 study also described a high proportion of atypical parkinsonism in New Caledonia and noted a higher percentage of habitual Annonaceae consumers in the atypical parkinsonism group.6 This association has therefore been noted in 2 genetically distinct populations, making the possibility of a common environmental exposure more compelling. The authors report that the plant products consumed in these regions are derived from A. muricata, Annona squamosa, and Annona reticulata. Notably, annonacin represents 0.007% of pawpaw fruit pulp by weight, which is higher than other analyzed sources (soursop pulp contains only 0.002% annonacin).4"
This has probably been discussed in the past, but this is a relatively new publication, and is in regards to a disease (PSP, https://www.ninds.nih.gov/progressive-supranuclear-palsy-fact-sheet) which shares similarities to Parkinsons.
For those growing and/or consuming frequent amounts of annonaceous plants, are you concerned about the above, and other reports linking this particular group to various forms of degenerative neurological conditions?
I ask this as someone who finds Rollinia and Cherimoya delicious, and could easily eats pounds and pounds of the stuff.
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This is very well documented science- you should never consume the seeds of annonacae and the fruit should be consumed in limited quantities.
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There was a controversial thread about this a year or so ago.
To be honest I am fine with me just avoiding the seeds and leaves.
Annonas are decent fruits that are good enough for me to not stop eating them but bad enough that I would rather eat mangoes or others over them.
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The fruit consumed was listed as annually, for 5 years prior to symptom onset and ongoing 5 more years until death (10 years total, approx 30lbs fruit per year, 300 lbs of pawpaw).
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Most items should be consumed in moderation.
Even drinking too much plain water can be hazardous( lookup radio station water contest Sacramento, ca). FWIW, I know of at least 5 people who have Parkinson's, tremors, or ALS who have never knowlingly eaten pawpaws or cherimoyas.
30 lbs is a lot, how would one not suffer from IBS symptoms?
But still, good to know the repercussions of.
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Life is short. You may not make it to the ripe old age where Parkinson's may naturally onset anyways. The sample size in most of these studies is small so it is difficult to say the study will have accurate enough results to draw a direct conclusion. I do certainly see enough evidence to say that overconsumption of annonacae may be problematic, but that any reasonable consumption should be fine and thus I will continue to do so when opportunity presents itself.
I hope to be so inundated with annona from my yard one day to have to actively decide to put down the spoon for my health.
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The fruit consumed was listed as annually, for 5 years prior to symptom onset and ongoing 5 more years until death (10 years total, approx 30lbs fruit per year, 300 lbs of pawpaw).
Good catch, important distinction!
Yes, life is short for some - but with the average life expectancy in the USA of ~78 years, certainly good chance of making it to the "golden years."
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Subsequently, his wife disclosed that he had habitually consumed pawpaw fruit from their family-owned nursery
The Journal article doesn't seem to cover any other Family Risk Factors, ie Family History of Parkinsons
or for that matter other risk factors from work /lifestyle including chemical use in the plant nursery which could easily parallel the fruit consumption.
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It is worth noting most of these studies have their root in epidemiological observations from the Island of Guadaloupe, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17303592/
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In Guadeloupe, there is an abnormally high frequency of atypical parkinsonism. Only one-third of the patients that develop parkinsonian symptoms were reported to present the classical features of idiopathic Parkinson disease and one-third a syndrome resembling progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP). The others were unclassifiable, according to established criteria. We carried out a cross-sectional study of 160 parkinsonian patients to: (i) define more precisely the clinical phenotypes of the PSP-like syndrome and the parkinsonism that was considered unclassifiable in comparison with previously known disorders; (ii) define the neuropsychological and brain imaging features of these patients; (iii) evaluate to what extent a candidate aetiological factor, the mitochondrial complex I inhibitor annonacin contained in the fruit and leaves of the tropical plant Annona muricata (soursop) plays a role in the neurological syndrome. Neuropsychological tests and MRI were used to classify the patients into those with Parkinson's disease (31%), Guadeloupean PSP-like syndrome (32%), Guadeloupean parkinsonism-dementia complex (PDC, 31%) and other parkinsonism-related disorders (6%). Patients with a PSP-like syndrome developed levodopa-resistant parkinsonism, associated with early postural instability and supranuclear oculomotor dysfunction. They differed, however, from classical PSP patients by the frequency of tremor (>50%), dysautonomia (50%) and the occurrence of hallucinations (59%). PDC patients had levodopa-resistant parkinsonism associated with frontosubcortical dementia, 52% of these patients had hallucinations, but, importantly, none had oculomotor dysfunction. The pattern of neuropsychological deficits was similar in both subgroups. Cerebral atrophy was seen in the majority of the PSP-like and PDC patients, with enlargement of the third ventricle and marked T2-hypointensity in the basal ganglia, particularly the substantia nigra. Consumption of soursop was significantly greater in both PSP-like and PDC patients than in controls and Parkinson's disease patients. In conclusion, atypical Guadeloupean parkinsonism comprises two forms of parkinsonism and dementia that differ clinically by the presence of oculomotor signs, but have similar cognitive profiles and neuroimaging features, suggesting that they may constitute a single disease entity, and both were similarly exposed to annonaceous neurotoxins, notably annonacin.
Annonacin is certainly a neurotoxin, demonstrated many times in rodents and primates, I do not think sample size is an issue in this topic
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No doubt that annonacin is a well documented neurotoxin and any consumption of those is problematic, no arguments there - just saying a larger sample size, including other risk factors of participants along with some data on general rate of Parkinson's in the population studied would add more value.
30lb of PawPaw doesn't seem difficult in a year. A couple a day for a month or two.
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There is a similar Parkinsons type syndrome in Guam and other Islands.
It was first linked to Cycad seed consumption, then Fruit Bat Consumption, then consumption of Fruit Bats that eat Cycad seeds.
Guadeloupe has a unique population, founded on imported slaves. There could be inherited factors in the Parkinsons syndrome, but as I remember from when this topic came up on another fruit forum, the studies didn't show family member inheritance.
They did seem to have low samples of patient numbers.
It would be interesting to note if the same type of Parkinsons syndrome appears in other Annona fruit eating countries.
They must also be heavily consumed elsewhere in South America, Caribbean etc.
Soursop drinks are pretty popular in SE Asia, Phillipines, etc. Canned versions are available at my local supermarket and Asian grocery.
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This is a real concern I have Annona's planted everywhere.
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A case study like this seems so specific to this particular individual that, while it is good to know about, I am not sure whether it is applicable to the general (Annona-eating) population. This individual could have been predisposed to developing Parkinson's, a disease whose cause is still a mystery to the medical community. It could be that this gentleman was punched in the head too much as a young man (ŕ la Muhammad Ali); it could be that he simply developed it due to advanced age; it could be that he developed it due to long-term exposure to pesticides at his nursery; or it could be because he ate too many pawpaws. The populations the authors of this study cited for correlation between higher than average parkinsonism and higher than average Annonaceae consumption were those of Guadeloupe and New Caledonia, both small, somewhat isolated populations that could also suffer from founder effect. There are no such studies (at least none cited by Drs. Kaas, Hillis, and Pantelyat) from the large, intermingled, heavily Annonaceae consuming countries of Central America.
I do not want to criticize this study too much, but I think the last sentence is the key thought we should take away from it:
"Further study is necessary to better understand the relationship between consumption of fruits such as the increasingly popular pawpaw and neurodegenerative presentations."
I could not agree more with that sentence, and I hope more research on the subject is undertaken in the future.
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Life is short. You may not make it to the ripe old age where Parkinson's may naturally onset anyways. The sample size in most of these studies is small so it is difficult to say the study will have accurate enough results to draw a direct conclusion. I do certainly see enough evidence to say that overconsumption of annonacae may be problematic, but that any reasonable consumption should be fine and thus I will continue to do so when opportunity presents itself.
I hope to be so inundated with annona from my yard one day to have to actively decide to put down the spoon for my health.
To the horror of every teacher I had growing up, I do generally trust Wikipedia. The Annonacin article cites more than one case study, but paints a picture of lifetime daily consumption (not just of fruit, but of nectar and tea as well) being linked to these issues, without mention of incidental consumption being linked to negative outcomes. Most people already consume things that would cause issues if eaten every day. You could have a heart attack if you ate a ribeye steak every day. You could get Type 2 Diabetes if you drank a can of coca cola with every meal. I'll view plants from this family as a 'sometimes food' going forward.
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Between Russia and N Korea threatening to irradiate planet, it won’t matter anyway once nuclear winter sets in. For now enjoy the pawpaw
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"You might get hit by a bus/ there might be a nuclear holocaust at some point in the future, so you should feel free to go hog-wild without concern on a known neurotoxin" seems like questionable logic to me, of the same kind that landed a bunch of my smoker friends in the lung cancer ward over time, but to each their own. Anybody who's been around someone with Parkinson's should know it probably isn't worth eating a ton of fruit if that's potentially a risk. And I'm saying this as somebody who loves annona fruit, I have skin in the game here.
Also in regards to the "it could be something else" line of thinking: Sure, but it isn't in question that annonacin is a neurotoxin, as Elocious said: it causes brain lesions in dopaminagenic structures when administered to rats or applied to cultured human dopaminagenic brain cells. The dosage required and susceptibility to do the same in live humans may be in debate, but it's just true that annonacin CAN do this at large enough doses. That would suggest caution as the issue being discussed is caused by the loss/damage of dopaminagenic neurons. To use the smoking analogy again, if you saw a cluster of people with lung cancer, and they all smoked a pack a day for years, saying "well they COULD have been exposed to some other carcinogen as children or have a genetic susceptibility" doesn't then lead to "and so smoking slightly fewer than a pack a day is probably fine for the rest of us". You know?
All THAT said, it seems to not come up very often in these discussions that the populations in Guadeloupe drink the leaves in tea form, daily in some cases:
"The unusually high number of parkinsonian patients with atypical clinical
features in Guadeloupe and the cross-ethnic representation of the patients
suggested that an environmental toxin might be responsible for the cluster of
cases. This hypothesis was supported by case–control studies [3, 18] showing
that patients with atypical parkinsonism consumed significantly more fruit and
infusions or decoctions of leaves from plants of the Annonaceae family, parti-
cularly Annona muricata L. (soursop, guanabana, graviola, corossol) than
patients with I-PD or control subjects. The leaves of these plants are used in
traditional Creole medicine from early childhood to old age, sometimes daily,
for heart and digestive problems, for sedative purposes or to maintain general
health. Comforting the idea that this family of plants played a key role in the
development of the atypical parkinsonian syndrome in Guadeloupe, a similar
clinical entity has also been associated to annonaceae consumption in patients
of Caribbean origin living in London [7] and in PD patients from new Caledonia,
a French Western Pacific island [1][/i]
-from study/analysis here: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-60327-252-0_18
So those people are getting a regular dose over a long period of time beyond just eating the fruit, which could explain why those populations in particular seem to be having this issue as compared to annona-eaters outside the Caribbean. Although, one soursop a day (which is probably more than most of us have access to without, say, an orchard) contained enough annonacin to hit the equivalent human threshold to amounts that cause brain damage in rats: https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.20632 . Which, by the way, is very possibly causing negative effects of some kind well before the pseudo-Parkinson's sets in due to what is being damaged.
Personally I just try to keep my consumption low and seasonal.
EDIT: TLDR of the above is "we know that annonacin causes the kind of brain damage that leads to this exact set of symptoms, but don't know in what dosages how often or what the lowest safe dose is for the average person consuming the fruit but not leaves, or even how much of the toxin is in annonas outside the Muricata family specifically (some other amounts have been studied in paw paw, atemoya and biriba, linked in a comment down below)."
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CeeJay, well said.
I was also thinking about comments people would make to me in the past where they would say well, I'm not going to live forever, when it came to smoking, as a way of an excuse for current behavior. Parkinson's and related neurodegenerative conditions are no joke and a crummy way to go..
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It's interesting that soursop leaves are said to be anti cancerous. I wonder where they are getting that information from and the results of annonacins from the leaves. Should be some articles out somewhere?
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I did some more digging into the research for some additional numbers:
- According to that last research link I posted (https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.20632), the annonacin content of the fruit pulp is much higher than the leaf decoction content by a factor of about 100 and the highest dose to people in Guadeloupe would have been from the fruit and not the leaves. Or canned with nectar, canned had an even higher concentration for some reason. The researchers used multiple methods to attempt to determine the content of annonacin (this is important since different methods can give different results)
-A 70kg human (about in the rough global average) would get about 1 mg/kg yearly from eating one Guadeloupe soursop per day, orally administered. This is versus 3.8mg/kg/year (administered in a large dose over a much shorter period) administered intravenously to rats that guaranteed (not "might have" but "definitely had") extreme neurological damage.
-That said, the authors admit that the bio-availability of orally administered annonacin isn't known (i.e. not sure how much makes it to your brain from your gut), so comparing it to intravaneously administration (as with the rats in that other study) isn't likely to be an exact match. A person eating a can of the stuff a day would be reaching about what the rats were getting but that's a lot of freaking fruit.
-Some troubling research on paw paws specificially: I found two studies ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130466/ ) and ( https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf504500g ) looking at the annonacin content of asmina triloba. The second study was done to address methodological issues in the first study and found a much higher content under optimal extraction conditions, about 7724mg/kg in the paw paw fruit pulp compared to 525mg/kg in the Guadeloupe soursop. That's, ah, a lot. This needs replication but IF the second study is correct then paw paw (at least the ones they tested) potentially has quite a bit more annonacin than the muricatas.
-The first study in the point above is still relevant since it determined that crude pulp extract (not just purified annonacin) was capable of causing neuro-degenerative damage. this also means there might be some kind of synnergistic effects one way or another. Likewise the second study determined that there are multiple isomers (chemical arrangements) of annonacin in paw paw, but it was beyond the scope of the study to determine if that matters in regards to neurodegenerative potential or anything else.
I'm still in the "in moderation seasonally" camp after reading all this, but actually looking at the available data is definitely concerning.
EDIT: Napkin math says that if that second study on paw paw annonacin content is accurate, that guy eating 13.6 kilos per year was getting about 1500mg/kg of annonacin per year, or 4mg/kg/day average which is slightly higher than the equivalent intravenous dose that was definitely giving a bunch of rats pseudo-Parkinson's. I'd imagine the oral availability is lower than intravenous by some significant amount (needs research) but that's higher than the folks in Guadeloupe were getting.
CeeJay, well said.
I was also thinking about comments people would make to me in the past where they would say well, I'm not going to live forever, when it came to smoking, as a way of an excuse for current behavior. Parkinson's and related neurodegenerative conditions are no joke and a crummy way to go..
Yeah, I wouldn't wish something like Parkinson's (or smoking related diseases for that matter) on my worst enemy.
It's interesting that soursop leaves are said to be anti cancerous. I wonder where they are getting that information from and the results of annonacins from the leaves. Should be some articles out somewhere?
If you go to Pubmed and search for "annonacin cancer", you can find most of them I think. there's a number of research studies, in cell cultures or rats (no in-human trials, likely because of the whole known neurotoxin thing).
The first link I posted in this post has the annonacin content of soursop leaves a couple of pages in. Not as high content as I would have thought.
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So were mostly talking about "paw paw" We call papaya "paw paw" in australia not the same thing and soursops. How about Sugar apples and Atemoya and illama? Are these fruits in the same class as paw paw and soursops in terms of toxicity ?
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So were mostly talking about "paw paw" We call papaya "paw paw" in australia not the same thing and soursops. How about Sugar apples and Atemoya and illama? Are these fruits in the same class as paw paw and soursops in terms of toxicity ?
Paw paw here is asimina triloba.
Trees in the annona family
So this makes me wonder about other related fruits also. Junglesop, kepel, and uvarias all come to mind. Of course no one has access to much fruit of any of these trees if at all. So I'd doubt there are studies published. At least soursop and sugar apple are very common in central America and the surrounding regions.
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Back in an older thread on the forums (https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20267.0), NullZero linked to an FDA review that had different known amounts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhQKFBj6/annoncin.png) (https://postimg.cc/WhQKFBj6)
I'd take some of these with a grain of salt since they used different extraction methods for some of those, and that paw paw study indicated that you could undershoot by quite a lot depending on the extraction method and temperature. That said, another meta-study I came across couldn't find any acetogenins (the compounds that annonacin is one of) in atemoya flesh samples at all (as opposed to plenty in the seeds), so this chart might be accurate that they're very low in the flesh (as opposed to the seeds). The huge range of soursop values (all done with the same extraction method) depending on location sure suggests that cultivar or environment might have a very large effect on the values even in-species.
I can't find anything about cherimoya or sugar apple, which is surprising since those are getting pretty common (hell, I think there's cherimoya at the corner market near me in Phoenix right now). Not sure anyone has looked at those, but I'd be interested to hear about it if anyone else finds any research on those. Seems like the potential range might be huge from species to species, and I feel a little safer about eating the atemoya parents now, I guess.
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ooof those Asiminia triloba numbers are off the charts- wonder if it was true fruit pulp or a concoction of the seeds and pulp
Also FTR- I still eat annona- and before I was more knowledgeable about the seeds ate a lot of pawpaw seeds from difficult to clean fruit- wicked stomach ache after that lasted a few days that was enough to have me never eating a seed again-
Also worth noting in Guadeloupe they blend the fruit (seeds and all) into the beverage that is most often consumed, on top of the tea leaf consumption.
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ooof those Asiminia triloba numbers are off the charts- wonder if it was true fruit pulp or a concoction of the seeds and pulp
Also FTR- I still eat annona- and before I was more knowledgeable about the seeds ate a lot of pawpaw seeds from difficult to clean fruit- wicked stomach ache after that lasted a few days that was enough to have me never eating a seed again-
Also worth noting in Guadeloupe they blend the fruit (seeds and all) into the beverage that is most often consumed, on top of the tea leaf consumption.
I think you may be onto something with Soursop numbers, it may be skewed because the typical preparation is juice.
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ooof those Asiminia triloba numbers are off the charts- wonder if it was true fruit pulp or a concoction of the seeds and pulp
All of those numbers in the chart are from just the fruit pulp unless otherwise indicated that it was a seed tested. The Asminia Triloba numbers were from this study specifically: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf504500g . I read the full study yesterday and it was just the pulp. The thing is, the authors of that study worked hard to find a really good way to determine the actual annonacin content, and they did, with the implication being that other studies (including some of the tests of other annonas) may be detecting way less than there actually is if they aren't using the right method or extraction solvent temperature (this has come up in a couple of other papers that I read as well, apparently the method used to extract the acetogenins matters a lot for accuracy).
Ideally it'd be good to see more studies on paw paws of different varieties/ different areas to see if those numbers are reflective of the species in general or if they're an outlier, especially given that other species (soursop) seems to have a large swing in values depending on the origin location. It would also be great if somebody would cross-reference soursop consumption/ annonacin content in places in Brazil to look for any other correlative hotspots that couldn't be explained by age of the population.
Also, there's very little comparative research on the other acetogenins unique to annonas, but they're all toxic to cells to some degree and there are like ten of them. Squamocin, that other chemical in the chart up there (named because it's found in high amounts in a. squamosa seeds, apparently) , may not be disrupting neuron proteins but definitely has cytotoxic effects which is why they've been investigated for potential anti-cancer applications. Also apparently there's a completely different neurotoxin in some annonas (like soursop) that they thought was causing the Parkinsons-like disease at first. Some of those chemicals might actually be good for some things in smaller doses. There's just not enough research it seems like.
Also worth noting in Guadeloupe they blend the fruit (seeds and all) into the beverage that is most often consumed, on top of the tea leaf consumption.
That is interesting. Could definitely go some way to explaining why some places are affected and not others.
One of the most damning things I found when I was poking around in the research that pointed to "yeah it was probably food related" was that cases of Parkinson's and Parkinson's-like diseases cratered in Guam (which was also super-high) and New Caledonia with a switch to the Western diet and changes in cultivated local food but no demographics changes that would have indicated a genetic shift. That was from an old Toxicology Journal back in the 90's.
This whole thing needs a ton more research.
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It is interesting that the Annonas seem to have evolved chemicals that possibly act as insecticides against one group of creatures that would eat the fruit, but not at levels to deter the animals that it needs to eat its fruit and distribute its seeds.
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The "Determination of Neurotoxic Acetogenins in Pawpaw (Asimina triloba) Fruit by LC-HRMS" study linked really is impressive. The NMR and Mass Spect brings back good college memories. If only I had the interest in tropical fruits back then, could have made for a very interesting project with more annonaceaes.
Would be great to see similar research on Rollinia and others. A particularly motivated person, with access to fresh fruit, could possibly partner with local chemistry department at a collegiate level for such a project. Anyone interested? :)
Of note, Memorial Slone Kettering has an interesting page on the pawpaws, stating:
(https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/american-pawpaw)
"Pawpaw fruit contains high concentrations of annonacin, which is toxic to nerve cells. In addition there have been case reports of possibly related nerve toxicity. Therefore, chronic use should be avoided."
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Noticed today that the company "Miami Fruit," popular on TikTok, is selling soursop tea and telling people to drink it every day.
https://miamifruit.org/collections/dry-canned-goods/products/soursop-leaf-tea
https://miamifruit.org/collections/dry-canned-goods/products/dried-mountain-soursop-leaves
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So they are promoting something they are selling ? Truly shocking :P
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I went down the rabbit hole on this a few years ago, and posted my findings. You can find most post if you search for it.
If you look at the incidence rate of Parkinson’s in the population that the document studied, the incidence rate of Parkinson’s on the island is not higher than the incidence rate of Parkinson’s in mainland USA. Therefore, the consumption of annona fruits does not cause Parkinson’s.
HOWEVER, if you do have Parkinson’s, it will make it worse! You will develop a “parkinsonism”, which is a more severe and less treatable version of Parkinson’s. The incidence rate of parkinsonisms in that island is much higher than in mainland USA. That said, there is some evidence that if you stop eating annona, you downgrade back to regular Parkinson’s.
As for how it affects other forms of illness, nobody knows! But, all fruits and veggies make their own insecticides to some degree, so we throw those dice anytime we eat anything plant based.
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I think the studies do make some big leaps, from directly injecting/ingesting rats with Annonacin toxin, to applying the same chemical to extracted neurons in a petri dish. Then connecting this to Annona fruit use.
In the study I looked at from Guadeloupe, the use of Annona fruit and teas was determined by a usage questionnaire to the patients as I remember.
Not sure how accurate that would be, people could easily exaggerate their use to explain their symptoms or downplay their use to avoid responsibility.
Certainly hard to gauge how much Annona people are using on a daily basis.
The presence of a disease cluster was a rate of disease different to the "normal" rate of disease incidence, sometimes in other populations or worldwide.
Otherwise it is known that some plants in the group have insecticidal properties. ( Annona Squamosa and Annona Muricata seed ).
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I essentially avoid any Annonaceae for my own consumption, there's not enough research in the metabolism of it in the body, whether or not it can accumulate in the tissues. Similar issues were found with unrelated compound BMAA in cycads and that indeed was bioaccumulating in the bats who in turn gradually poisoned the people. This is ignoring the fact that nerve damage does not repair well in general.
A very big concern I have though is with rotenoids found in a fair few fabids, like Tephrosia, Derris, Amorpha and most concerningly Pachyrhisus (jicama) which I see showing up in the markets lately. And a rare couple non fabids like Verbascum (mullein) and Mirabilis. all these definitely have cumulative nerve damaging effects that effectively DO NOT resolve in your lifespan.
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So….does anyone else have tingling feeling in their tongue days after eating annonas? I’ve noticed if I start stripping flesh off the seeds with my tongue, get a tingling/prickly feeling in my tongue…same feeling like when foot falls asleep. Just me…? Lol
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I essentially avoid any Annonaceae for my own consumption, there's not enough research in the metabolism of it in the body, whether or not it can accumulate in the tissues. Similar issues were found with unrelated compound BMAA in cycads and that indeed was bioaccumulating in the bats who in turn gradually poisoned the people. This is ignoring the fact that nerve damage does not repair well in general.
A very big concern I have though is with rotenoids found in a fair few fabids, like Tephrosia, Derris, Amorpha and most concerningly Pachyrhisus (jicama) which I see showing up in the markets lately. And a rare couple non fabids like Verbascum (mullein) and Mirabilis. all these definitely have cumulative nerve damaging effects that effectively DO NOT resolve in your lifespan.
This is fascinating!
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If you look at the incidence rate of Parkinson’s in the population that the document studied, the incidence rate of Parkinson’s on the island is not higher than the incidence rate of Parkinson’s in mainland USA. Therefore, the consumption of annona fruits does not cause Parkinson’s.
The incidence rate of standard Parkinson's (what you're referring to here) doesn't matter in the case of the studies, since they were expressly looking at atypical Parkinson's/ atypical parkinsonism: that is, Parkinson's-adjacent symptoms and degenerative disease progression that don't have the same cause or response to the same treatments as standard Parkinson's. The American Parkinson Disease Association has a decent explanation of the difference on their website: https://www.apdaparkinson.org/article/atypical-parkinsonism/ So does John Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/parkinsons-disease/atypical-parkinsonian-disorders .
The studies in Guadeloupe used MRI and testing to exclude normal Parkinson's (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17303592/), and all of the relevant studies refer to "atypical parkinsonism" in the title. The guy who ate 30 lbs. of paw paws a year in the study linked originally at the top of this thread also had atypical Parkinson's/ parkinsonism.
"Parkinsonism", which just means "the symptoms of Parkinson's regardless of cause", is generally the result of damage to or loss of functioning of dopamine neurons. Multiple studies in vitro and in vivo have shown that chemicals in annona plants can damage dopamine neurons, which is why this research/discussion is even happening.
(Also the US is a poor benchmark even for standard Parkinson's as we have a slightly-above-global-average rate of standard-Parkinson's deaths anyway, if we were going to look at that. But again it doesn't matter, even if deaths to atypical Parkinsons get folded into the WHO numbers, because the studies screened for that. there is some confusion since some of the other countries that have or had high atypical parkinsonism, like Guam, also have or had high rates of standard Parkinson's.)
HOWEVER, if you do have Parkinson’s, it will make it worse! You will develop a “parkinsonism”, which is a more severe and less treatable version of Parkinson’s. The incidence rate of parkinsonisms in that island is much higher than in mainland USA. That said, there is some evidence that if you stop eating annona, you downgrade back to regular Parkinson’s.
This seems to be a misunderstanding about what "parkinsonism" means."Parkinsonism" just means "disease with Parkinson's symptoms", it's not something extra on top of Parkinson's. The incidence of atypical parkinsonism is what was being studied in regards to the annonas. Not standard levadopa-responsive Parkinson's. The studies looked at people who did NOT have Parkinson's but instead had atypical Parkinson's.
EDIT: I can't find any indication that excludes people with Parkinson's also having MORE dopamine neuron damage from a different source than pre-existing Parkinson's, but again that wasn't what was being studied.
But, all fruits and veggies make their own insecticides to some degree, so we throw those dice anytime we eat anything plant based.
The various insecticides found in fruit and vegetables are wildly different in physical effects and many are better-studied than acetogenins. The glucosinolates that make broccoli bitter are an insecticide (and safe for human consumption in amounts found in broccoli), while solanine is also an insecticide (which is NOT safe for human consumption). Eating food that has under-studied nerve-damaging chemicals in clinically relevant amounts from normal consumption (like the annonans) is more of a potential risk to most people than eating a chili pepper containing some capscacin, despite both of those containing "insecticides to some degree".
I think the studies do make some big leaps, from directly injecting/ingesting rats with Annonacin toxin, to applying the same chemical to extracted neurons in a petri dish. Then connecting this to Annona fruit use.
That's how they study what chemicals do, though. We apply them to cells in a petri dish and then apply them to animals, and then if it is safe and ethical to do so we apply them to humans to be sure. In this case we can't do that last one (humans) because it wouldn't be safe or ethical based on the results of the animal studies.
Anyway, in both cases studied (in vitro and in animals), annonacin causes damage to the cells in a way that could cause atypical Parkinson's. The study on asminia triloba also confirmed that it wasn't just the purified annonacin but the raw fruit extract that can cause the damage.
There doesn't appear to be a debate at the research level, at all, about whether annonacin can cause damage to neurons. The only question is whether or not enough of it gets into the bloodstream from achievable ingestion to cause the pathology. EDIT: Sorry, I think on re-read I misunderstood that this was what you were specifically referring to, that you feel it's a leap to assumptions about ingested effects. I'd agree except that you've got these cases/clusters of atypical parkinsonism popping up and that we know that IF the chemical gets into the bloodstream then it can damage neurons (from the rat studies).
In the study I looked at from Guadeloupe, the use of Annona fruit and teas was determined by a usage questionnaire to the patients as I remember.
Not sure how accurate that would be, people could easily exaggerate their use to explain their symptoms or downplay their use to avoid responsibility.
I went back and checked the main Guadeloupe study, and they had a double-blind and a similar-demographics-but-no-Parkinson's control group on the questionnaire to prevent that kind of bias (they also included a screen for the control group for Parkinson's). Food questionnaires are pretty unreliable, sure, but if you have a proper control and double-blind then a relative difference can still be seen if you have a big enough number of participants.
Otherwise it is known that some plants in the group have insecticidal properties. ( Annona Squamosa and Annona Muricata seed ).
Those insecticidal chemicals (the acetogenins which include annonacin) are also found in the fruit and other plant parts of muricata, squamosa, a. triloba, and mucosa per a couple of different studies linked in this thread.
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Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons? A mature fruit tree will produce like 100+lbs of fruit in one season so it would be very easy to eat way more than that.
I planted a San Pablo Red Custard Apple at my house because the fruit is so good. Right now it hasn't started producing yet but now I'm worried.
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The only experience I have with something similar is that over the summer I grew a jicama plant from seed, trying to test different plants that can be grown here in the summer. The plant successfully produced a huge root over the summer. When eating it I soon felt really hot all over and had a feeling like I was intoxicated. Knowing that the plants have toxins "in the leaves/seeds only" I got worried that there probably was toxin in the roots too so I stopped eating it and I felt better soon. I don't know if it was psychological/anxiety related but I'm not going to grow it again.
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Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons?
Or you could say a man with Parkinsons ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that was possibly a factor, considering overseas studies ?
In my mind the "Jurian" is still out on that, especially in a one off case, as above, of one elderly person.
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Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons?
Or you could say a man with Parkinsons ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that was possibly a factor, considering overseas studies ?
In my mind the "Jurian" is still out on that, especially in a one off case, as above, of one elderly person.
I'm just pointing out 30 lbs is not a lot at all of a single tropical fruit if you have a mature tree. Most mature fruit trees will produce 100+lbs per season and you're going to be eating a lot of it if it's in your backyard.. So if I buy a 2 lb bunch of bananas at Costco, and eat 15 of those bunches in an entire year, I've at 30 lbs of bananas. Am I misunderstanding what is going on?
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Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons?
Or you could say a man with Parkinsons ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that was possibly a factor, considering overseas studies ?
In my mind the "Jurian" is still out on that, especially in a one off case, as above, of one elderly person.
"Nursery owner with pawpaw patch was diagnosed with Parkinson's. Man reportedly ate 30lb of fruit annually for 10 years and this may have contributed."
I think a lot of us are trying to find a way around the fact that Annonacin is a neurotoxin and the Guadeloupe study shows negative health outcomes after eating it over a lifetime. I certainly am looking for an alternative reasoning for the atypical Parkinsonism in Guadeloupe, but reasonably I think the truth is there for all to see if you combine all the studies in this thread that annonacin in large amounts of a long period of time will probably produce negative health outcomes. Seeing the concentrations in pawpaw certainly takes it up a notch and I wonder if 10 years of pawpaw is roughly the same as 50 years of soursop.
Being that I still like to eat bacon, smoked meats, and sugar - I'll risk a bit of annonacin here and there, but still, I guess I should slow down on planting it...
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So if I buy a 2 lb bunch of bananas at Costco, and eat 15 of those bunches in an entire year, I've at 30 lbs of bananas. Am I misunderstanding what is going on?
From that point no, I probably eat 25 bunches of Bananas per year.
As you say it is not going to be hard to reach 30 lbs of Annona fruit per year, especially from your own trees.
On the other hand a San Pablo Red Custard Apple is not an Asimina paw paw.
Some people I know, fruitarian fanatics in Nth Qld, must be well over that amount of Annona fruit per year over the previous 20 years I have known them.
30 lbs could be a far lower amount than what some people actually eat ?
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Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons? A mature fruit tree will produce like 100+lbs of fruit in one season so it would be very easy to eat way more than that.
I planted a San Pablo Red Custard Apple at my house because the fruit is so good. Right now it hasn't started producing yet but now I'm worried.
He got atypical parkinsonism, which there is evidence can be caused by chemicals in annona fruit in large long-term amounts.
The amount of the chemical that concerns most researchers varies from species to species; paw paws and soursops seem to have higher concentrations in particular depending on the batch tested. One study (it's linked higher up and in some earlier forum threads) found paw paws specifically to have a LOT of the chemical, more per serving than the high dose they were using intravenously in the rat studies.
I've been posting a lot in this thread since I enjoy sorting through and reading research studies, and I've seen enough evidence for ME that I believe annonacin can cause some of the brain damage seen in clusters (or one-offs, as with this nursery owner) with high consumption. BUT I haven't seen enough to make me personally give up annonas totally. Many, many people eat these around the world without apparent incident.
I've got a couple of small annona trees (custard apple, cherimoya, atemoya) myself that I'm working on adapting to the climate out here, and I'm not planning on throwing them out. I'm just going to keep the fruit intake down when and if they do fruit, and I'm still going to have the occasional grocery store fruit once in a while until then. I'm just not going to eat a ton of them, and focus on really enjoying the good ones as a treat. I'm also probably going to be careful about soursop and especially paw paw consumption until I see more research since those had the highest tested values and are the ones potentially linked to real-world brain damage rather than hypothetical. That's where my risk tolerance is based on the evidence so far.
Edit: Oh yeah and the seeds are still bad for all of them, apparently.
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I'm just shocked that the amount is only 30 lbs. A single mango is like 1 lb, so that's only the equivalent of eating 30 mangoes in an entire year. That seems like a very low threshold. I'm glad I read this though, since I have a small tree, I won't be eating tons of them once it's a large tree. For example I eat like 2-3 passionfruits (with seeds) per day, pretty much every day, since I have tons. If my trees get a good harvest of mango or lychee I could eat like 100 lbs a year between fresh and frozen fruit. Had I not read this I could have eaten like 50 red custard apples a year.
Two years ago I ate probably 10 red custard apples in a year, which could be like 15-20 lbs.
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Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of? What about yuca, I eat a lot of that both from my yard & the cassava flour tortillas & pastas?
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According to the table on the first page of this discussion, paw paw has approximately 2,000 times the annonacin content of atemoya. Presuming this was indeed the causitive factor, I would need to consume over 600,000 lbs of atemoya pulp in 10 years to get the same effect. Put another way, that is 167 pounds a day for 10 years. I think I'm safe.
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Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of? What about yuca, I eat a lot of that both from my yard & the cassava flour tortillas & pastas?
Because the protein is essential to the detoxification of cassava, most of the issues I remember happen only in diets that are extremely low in protein (or that involve improperly cooked cassava). Here's a good article I found:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/156482650202300418&ved=2ahUKEwjs7KCQgZH7AhUVZTABHVg-D-0QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3c38djpxXFehp9YNyNC1hQ
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Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of?
Taro and Monstera deliciousa come to mind ( oxalic acid ). Not a problem if prepared properly.
Both Cashew and Mango fruit have irritating sap, many for fruit pickers.
Durian and Jackfruit directly kill a bunch of people ever year, heavy fruit falling on their heads.
Apples have cyanide in the seed, can cause problems if not removed before brewing Scrumpy Cider.
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We eat rollina fairly often but otherwise I'm not a huge fan of soursops, sugar apples and atemoya. I knew the seeds were toxic but wasn't aware that small amounts are also present in the flesh. I've planted lots of mangoes, durian, artocarpus and pouteria.....Happy I didn't go crazy planting annonas, ha.
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Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of? What about yuca, I eat a lot of that both from my yard & the cassava flour tortillas & pastas?
In addition to what others said:
chaya when it isn't cooked enough (hydrogen cyanide content that breaks down with cooking)
katuk in huge amounts: https://www.eattheweeds.com/edible-katuk-sauropus-androgynus-2/
bitter melon in huge amounts (common story with anti-diabetic stuff, anything that helps with blood sugar seems to be rough on the liver in large volume)
monkey orange/strychnos spinosa when the fruit isn't ripe
I've come across more, but those off the top of my head.
According to the table on the first page of this discussion, paw paw has approximately 2,000 times the annonacin content of atemoya. Presuming this was indeed the causitive factor, I would need to consume over 600,000 lbs of atemoya pulp in 10 years to get the same effect. Put another way, that is 167 pounds a day for 10 years. I think I'm safe.
Yeah, atemoya and biriba seemed to have the lowest amounts tested in every study so far. I really wish somebody would test cherimoya.
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Both of my grandparents, and several of their friends that lived in Guam for a period of time on the base developed Parkinsonism/PSP. None of them were genetically related. My relatives never knowingly consumed pawpaw or annona fruits. We did a fair bit of research regarding cause when my second grandparent was diagnosed and it seems like it would be very difficult to unwind all of the potential causes. I'd be curious too, and I haven't looked, but about the overall increase in instances of Parkinsonism across the world and its territories and how much could be assigned to better testing, more awareness, or just overall greater case load. (before demonizing pawpaw)
I just want to add, pesticides like paraquat have been shown to cause Neurodegenerative diseases at elevated rates also. In Guam, there was excessive pesticide use, and nowhere for it to really go when my grandparents (and mother) lived there for a period of time. My mother is 68 today, and has no signs of degeneration, thankfully. I don't know about Guadalupe, but it would be worth looking into also.
Undoubtedly, consuming an enormous amount of pawpaw, or anything, could have health consequences; and it would be valuable to know at what rate it's more toxic, or toxic enough to be highly concerned. Breathing city air is probably doing more harm than the occasional pawpaw, atemoya, or soursop.
Are there a lot of studies on long-term consumption of soursop/guanabana shakes and things like that? For certain there's groups of folks in tropical areas that drink shakes almost daily and would cause an uptick in neurodegenerative diseases. (if it was causative)
Man, I've edited this a bunch, just spoke with a friend of mine from the DR, he says that when they drink shakes they blend the seeds and fruit together.
Daniel
There is a similar Parkinsons type syndrome in Guam and other Islands.
It was first linked to Cycad seed consumption, then Fruit Bat Consumption, then consumption of Fruit Bats that eat Cycad seeds.
Guadeloupe has a unique population, founded on imported slaves. There could be inherited factors in the Parkinsons syndrome, but as I remember from when this topic came up on another fruit forum, the studies didn't show family member inheritance.
They did seem to have low samples of patient numbers.
It would be interesting to note if the same type of Parkinsons syndrome appears in other Annona fruit eating countries.
They must also be heavily consumed elsewhere in South America, Caribbean etc.
Soursop drinks are pretty popular in SE Asia, Phillipines, etc. Canned versions are available at my local supermarket and Asian grocery.
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Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of?
Taro and Monstera deliciousa come to mind ( oxalic acid ). Not a problem if prepared properly.
Both Cashew and Mango fruit have irritating sap, many for fruit pickers.
Durian and Jackfruit directly kill a bunch of people ever year, heavy fruit falling on their heads.
Apples have cyanide in the seed, can cause problems if not removed before brewing Scrumpy Cider.
Fair points, but irritating sap or a heavy fruit that can fall on someone are on an entirely different scales of "caution" than a neurotoxin...
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Both of my grandparents, and several of their friends that lived in Guam for a period of time on the base developed Parkinsonism/PSP. None of them were genetically related. My relatives never knowingly consumed pawpaw or annona fruits. We did a fair bit of research regarding cause when my second grandparent was diagnosed and it seems like it would be very difficult to unwind all of the potential causes. I'd be curious too, and I haven't looked, but about the overall increase in instances of Parkinsonism across the world and its territories and how much could be assigned to better testing, more awareness, or just overall greater case load. (before demonizing pawpaw)
Parkinsons in Guam is suspected to be linked to consumption of cycad-eating bats. But on-base it could be so many other things, as you say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytico-bodig_disease
Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of?
Taro and Monstera deliciousa come to mind ( oxalic acid ). Not a problem if prepared properly.
Both Cashew and Mango fruit have irritating sap, many for fruit pickers.
Durian and Jackfruit directly kill a bunch of people ever year, heavy fruit falling on their heads.
Apples have cyanide in the seed, can cause problems if not removed before brewing Scrumpy Cider.
Potatoes are also toxic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaconine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape_potato
"After the Lenape variety was released for commercial production, a potato breeder in Ontario ate some to see if they might be suitable as new potatoes but soon felt nauseated. When the same occurred next time he ate them, he sent a sample to be analysed by a vegetable biochemist, Dr. Ambrose Zitnak of the University of Guelph, who found they contained exceptionally high levels of glycoalkaloids (mainly solanine and chaconine), the natural toxins found in potatoes that help protect them from pests and disease.[5] Lenape potatoes collected from around Canada were found to contain over 16–35 mg of glycoalkaloids per 100 g of fresh potato compared to 3–18 mg in other varieties.[4] Samples grown at 39 locations around the US had an average of 29 mg per 100 g of potato but ranged from 16–65 mg compared to an average of 8 mg for five other varieties."
If 29 mg/100g of glycoalkaloids causes nausea, how safe is the average 8 mg/100g? "potato farmers aim to keep solanine levels below 0.2 mg/g" So the recommended safe limit is 20 mg/100g, but 29 mg/100g causes acute nausea? It's unclear if there are long-term deleterious effects, but why risk it when there are safer alternatives?
Oxalic acid is also a lot more common than you might think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid#Content_in_food_items
"Although spinach is touted as being high in iron and calcium content, and is often served and consumed in its raw form, raw spinach contains high levels of oxalates, which block absorption of calcium and iron in the stomach and small intestine. Spinach cooked in several changes of water has much lower levels of oxalates and is better digested and its nutrients absorbed more completely.[7][8] In addition to preventing absorption and use, high levels of oxalates remove iron from the body.[8][9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach
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I feel like there is a lot of doubt being thrown around with this study, CeeJey is trying to save y'all, please listen to them!
As someone on the forum is named; Acetogenins are a peculiar class of something in chemistry called 'Polyketides', that have both medical and agricultural significance.
Acetogenins, such as Annonacin, but many many more... with perhaps familiar names too, like, Bullatacin, Squamocin, Uvaricin... are in the same class as both Pikromycin and Spinosad.
So. Macrolides and Pesticides. Quite the coinflip.
As dangerous and unknown Annonacin is, there are also quite a few more. Please be careful eating anything in Annonacae family; and do your research. As previously said it seems Atemoya are considerably safer than pawpaw. I'm personally completely fine with reading other people's experiences instead of trying one myself. Stay safe
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To the horror of every teacher I had growing up, I do generally trust Wikipedia. The Annonacin article cites more than one case study, but paints a picture of lifetime daily consumption (not just of fruit, but of nectar and tea as well) being linked to these issues, without mention of incidental consumption being linked to negative outcomes. Most people already consume things that would cause issues if eaten every day. You could have a heart attack if you ate a ribeye steak every day. You could get Type 2 Diabetes if you drank a can of coca cola with every meal. I'll view plants from this family as a 'sometimes food' going forward.
Saturated fat wrongly received the blame for heart attacks when it was actually refined sugar and seed oils. High consumption of seed (vegetable) oils has been linked to parkinson's disease. Seed oils are in nearly every pre-packaged food product and used by every restauraunt:
https://davidgillespie.org/every-drop-of-vegetable-oil-takes-us-further-along-the-path-to-parkinsons-disease/ (https://davidgillespie.org/every-drop-of-vegetable-oil-takes-us-further-along-the-path-to-parkinsons-disease/)
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Both of my grandparents, and several of their friends that lived in Guam for a period of time on the base developed Parkinsonism/PSP. None of them were genetically related. My relatives never knowingly consumed pawpaw or annona fruits. We did a fair bit of research regarding cause when my second grandparent was diagnosed and it seems like it would be very difficult to unwind all of the potential causes. I'd be curious too, and I haven't looked, but about the overall increase in instances of Parkinsonism across the world and its territories and how much could be assigned to better testing, more awareness, or just overall greater case load. (before demonizing pawpaw)
Parkinsons in Guam is suspected to be linked to consumption of cycad-eating bats. But on-base it could be so many other things, as you say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytico-bodig_disease
Yeah, I'd also heard about pesticides as a likely cause of parkinsonism. They sprayed chemicals every night for hours at a time to control mosquitos and bugs. My mother and all of the other kids on base vividly would recall the smoke-show and how it would hang around for hours and hours at a time. Many of the houses did not have air conditioning and had to have their windows open during the spraying.
Daniel
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Combining a naturally occurring neurotoxin with others, and synthetic compounds and neurotoxins and pesticides, in different people, likely leads to myriad results.
Gonna drink less beer to justify continuing to eat some annonas.
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I feel bad about this! Not that i eat alot of anonna fruit, i only happen to eat like one cherimoya here and there.... Arent there any researches on cherimoya? My plants have just started fruiting and knowing my conservative family i will have to eat the fruits myself. I love cherimoya, and i dont really think in my climate i could produce a guantity that would be dangerous to be eaten by one person.
Can it be that since there isnt any deep research on cherimoya, does this mean that it doesnt really have enouth of the toxin in the flesh? Like it having such a tiny ammount ,that its not worth it to be researched more ?
Correct me if i'm wrong ,but i had the impression that cherimoya is the most widely grown and commercially important anonna fruit, it is kinsa strange if they didnt do research on it....
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Some years ago I worked on a Custard Apple farm near Byron Bay, Australia for 3 months.
One of my infrequent jobs was to dip the fruit in an insecticide bath to kill insect pests / fruit fly that might emerge in transit to Sydney markets.
Forget what the chemical was, ( hope that is not a symptom ).
Anyway I ate plenty of free fresh picked Custard Apples and Avocados from the orchard, second grade etc before they were packed/treated for market.
Since then I have rarely bought a Supermarket Annona fruit, even then sometimes only for seed.
Frankly I am probably more concerned about post harvest chemicals on fruit, especially imported fruit and supermarket fruit.
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As someone from Guam, I can add a little bit to the discussion of Parkinson's/Lytigo Bodig. What isn't mentioned in the studies is that Lytico Bodig disease on Guam is specifically from within one single family clan in the South. The disease is not known to be prevalent on neighboring islands to the north of us who share cultural and dietary similarities. Consumption of bats was a very common practice in the past, especially during and after WWII, when the entire population was held captive by the Japanese Military and farmed crops were stolen by Japanese troops under threat of death. Wild-sourced foods, such as fruit bats, were relied upon by the local population. In addition to the bats, which are laden with the bioaccumulating neurotoxin, its also worth mentioning that toxic cycad nuts themselves (processed but still assumingly containing enough toxins to be detrimental) are used as a food source, as are 3 species of Annonas: soursops, sugar apples and custard apples. Another point worth mentioning is the entire island used to be sprayed with DDT by the Military during the Vietnam War to combat mosquitoes and possible malarial outbreaks from within the camps set up for transitioning Vietnamese refugees headed to the US. Up till this day, mustard gas and dangerous rainbow chemicals used during WWII remain hidden in jungle pathways and such. If it's the bats or the cycads or the annonas or WWII chemicals at work or possibly a synergy of everything? Hard to say why Lytico Bodig isn't as widespread on island and why it has decimated one family clan and not the next. What is apparent now a days is the decline of poisonous cycads in our forests due to invasive insects, the decline of bats due to an invasive snake, and the decline of bats as a food source and the decline of cycad nuts as a food source. The 3 species of annonas remain popular with the older generation but with the introduction of the Western diet, the younger generation struggles to identify a custard apple. Also apparent is the disappearance of Lytico Bodig but the persistence of Parkinson's within the local population.
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What isn't mentioned in the studies is that Lytico Bodig disease on Guam is specifically from within one single family clan in the South.
The disease is not known to be prevalent on neighboring islands to the north of us who share cultural and dietary similarities.
That is a stunning revelation.
It would seem to point to an inherited tendency to develop Parkinsons type disease as the cause as the simple explanation.
Or even an inherited higher susceptibility to Cycad toxin as a secondary possibility.
People can vary in their enzyme capability to absorb nutrients or break down toxins
I think that this is fairly well known that Parkinsons can run in families.
Interesting that the population statistical studies of the disease seem to have missed this Family Clan factor.
I wonder if Guadeloupe was examined more closely, would the patients be linked to a common ancestor.
If early settlers had large families, and again in the next generations, it doesn't take much for one small group to be highly represented.
About a third of the current population of Tasmania are descended from one couple from the early settlement.
If i recall correctly the man was a Tasmanian Aboriginal and the Mother a White convict.
An inherited disorder is found in this now large group.
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Something that is alluded to several times above, but not clearly emphasized, is that natural chemical content of different varieties of one species can vary dramatically; and that samples gathered from a single tree at different times of year, also vary from near zero to potent.
Studies in Puerto Rico of the ingredientes of Soursop (Guanabana, Graviola) pulp aroma, found over a dozen chemicals, which in different varieties were "all over the map" in concentrations or absence.
Studies at Purdue University, by pharmacognocist Jerry McGlaughlin, using brine shrimp assays to find alkaloids for futher study in uses against cancers, found that some samples from Soursop trees had nothing to offer, while others were of value.
He also found that Pawpaw twigs, gathered at most times of year had very weak alkaloid content, but gathered in May, were potent.
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OK! I dug out my old notes on this one, and learned a few more things! I really appreciate the discussion on this thread. It's really important for us to know the safety of our hobby :).
Pomper et al. looked at the toxicity of soursop, cherimoya, pawpaw varietals, peach, and banana: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf9018239. They measured toxicity by finding the amount of extract needed to kill 50% of a brine shrimp population. Among many things, they found:
1) that cherimoya flesh was 100x less toxic than soursop, and is almost as benign as peaches (yay!).
2) that some pawpaws were 100x more toxic than soursop, and that some pawpaws were about as toxic as soursop.
The amount of annonacin in some pawpaws is truly staggering! But, it’s this dramatic figure which likely proves the point that this is rather well tolerated by >99% of the population. A homeowner binge-eating fruit from their pawpaw tree could end up eating ~3lbs of pawpaw in a day (or 3~5 pawpaw fruits). Assuming a typical soursop weighs 6lbs, that’s roughly like eating 50 soursop fruits in a single day! A single tree could yield 30~80 pounds of fruit, so that could amass to eating the equivalent of 500~1300 soursops per tree. That’s a dose higher than eating a full 6lbs of soursop every day *and* drinking the soursop leaf tea every day for a year, but administered all in 1~2 months! If that’s the case, fruit fanatics and pawpaw lovers in the american midwest should be suffering just as much or more than the people of french west indies due to the Indiana banana!
However, there are definitely a small population of people who ARE very strongly affected by this toxin: people with Progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP). Developing this extremely unfortunate condition is mostly strongly linked to genetics. In caucasians, the insertion/deletion polymorphism in intron 9 of MAPT is associated with this risk. In Guadeloupe, it's likely some other genetic issue (https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mds.22297). Caparros-Lefebvre found in 2005 that younger people who were diagnosed with PSP greatly diminished their PSP symptoms when they stopped consuming annona products. I don't have access to the original paper, but you can see it on slide 14 here: http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/PDF/AcetoUpdate3.pdf.
Since the caucasian farmer in the 2020 paper had been diagnosed with PSP, and likely had the H1 genetic factor, he definitely should not have been consuming annona fruits or products. It's unfortunate that this wasn't more well known! He lived to be 80 years old, which is pretty good, but he could have lived longer. What he likely experienced was a huge surge in symptoms every time he consumed pawpaw. Since symptoms were only observed to diminish in younger people with PSP when stopping annona products, he may have felt a permanent increase in the severity of his symptoms whenever he consumed pawpaw. It's unfortunate that he didn't make the connection that his symptoms got worse when he ate the fruit.
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OK! I dug out my old notes on this one, and learned a few more things! I really appreciate the discussion on this thread. It's really important for us to know the safety of our hobby :).
... It's unfortunate that he didn't make the connection that his symptoms got worse when he ate the fruit.
Wait, so if I understand this right, whether or not annonas will harm you seems to be in some way genetically linked? fascinating idea. It would make sense for the studies to be skewed (similar to say, a study on starfruit using people with bad livers) and appears that annona is harmful to you given the results.
What we really need is a control group of completely normal, 'healthy' people, and then people with PSP and other mentioned illnesses in the studies, and a better way of measuring whether or not it is affecting rats in the same way it would affect humans (like say dogs and chocolate)
Also, I have no indepth knowledge of anatomy so idk how realistic the dog and chocolate comparison is to rat and human brains. Still though, very interesting.
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OK! I dug out my old notes on this one, and learned a few more things! I really appreciate the discussion on this thread. It's really important for us to know the safety of our hobby :).
... It's unfortunate that he didn't make the connection that his symptoms got worse when he ate the fruit.
Wait, so if I understand this right, whether or not annonas will harm you seems to be in some way genetically linked? fascinating idea. It would make sense for the studies to be skewed (similar to say, a study on starfruit using people with bad livers) and appears that annona is harmful to you given the results.
What we really need is a control group of completely normal, 'healthy' people, and then people with PSP and other mentioned illnesses in the studies, and a better way of measuring whether or not it is affecting rats in the same way it would affect humans (like say dogs and chocolate)
Also, I have no indepth knowledge of anatomy so idk how realistic the dog and chocolate comparison is to rat and human brains. Still though, very interesting.
No. From what I'm reading, annonacin is neurotoxic. Not good for anyone's neurons. Like alcohol in a way. Some people are more susceptible. Annonacin levels of fruit appear to vary greatly between species, and within the same species and plants, depending on time of harvest and other variables.
Most of us can probably get by with eating our favorites, within reason (whatever that means). Paw paw appears the worst of those assessed so far, followed by guanabana.
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No. From what I'm reading, annonacin is neurotoxic. Not good for anyone's neurons. Like alcohol in a way. Some people are more susceptible. Annonacin levels of fruit appear to vary greatly between species, and within the same species and plants, depending on time of harvest and other variables.
Most of us can probably get by with eating our favorites, within reason (whatever that means). Paw paw appears the worst of those assessed so far, followed by guanabana.
yeah gotcha. I'm considering soursop and paw paw straight up DO NOT EAT from now on, maybe science will reach a day where we can neutralize the toxin in some way?
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Its nice that they found out that cherimoya is one of the least toxic from the anonas. Ive ate paw paw only once, it was really good and i have several plants in my garden, i wont be discarding them though, wont be having fruits in like 3-4 years from now. Hopefully the scientists find out that its not the pure fruit thats causing it and the toxicity ends up being dependent on other factors....
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if only I majored in chemistry...
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Has there been any info on how processing the fruit affects the toxin levels? Say cooking a soursop or a pawpaw into jams, breads, cake flavorings, caramelizing it and blending it into a milkshake etc...? I'm assuming the cooking process likely reduces the toxicity quite a bit.
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Wait, so if I understand this right, whether or not annonas will harm you seems to be in some way genetically linked?
Genetically linked, along with the ability to metabolise alcohol, the ability to digest cows milk ( higher in dairy herding cultures), gluten tolerance ( higher in grain growing cultures ).
Also the likelihood of developing obesity and diabetes is higher in some groups, namely some Indigenous peoples who are more efficient at extracting nutrients from their original unrefined food types and can't handle modern western diets so well ( this seems to apply in part to all of us to some degree ).
It would not be unusual to find that people how have been using foods certain for millennia would be more tolerant of them.
In the case of Annonas, it puzzled me that because of the deep Ethnobotanical knowledge of various Jungle peoples that consume wild Annona fruit,
why this issue has not appeared before.
They seem to have a very high awareness of plant toxins in foods and how to deal with them.
Some of the complex dietary requirements around Hallucinogenic plant use and the use of additional plant species to facilitate the use are fascinating.
It seems unbelievable to me that Annona toxins would not be well known in those cultures if they were a problem.
Perhaps the lifespan of people was shorter and symptoms did not appear, but that seems unlikely.
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Wait, so if I understand this right, whether or not annonas will harm you seems to be in some way genetically linked?
Genetically linked, along with the ability to metabolise alcohol, the ability to digest cows milk ( higher in dairy herding cultures), gluten tolerance ( higher in grain growing cultures ).
Also the likelihood of developing obesity and diabetes is higher in some groups, namely some Indigenous peoples who are more efficient at extracting nutrients from their original unrefined food types and can't handle modern western diets so well ( this seems to apply in part to all of us to some degree ).
It would not be unusual to find that people how have been using foods certain for millennia would be more tolerant of them.
In the case of Annonas, it puzzled me that because of the deep Ethnobotanical knowledge of various Jungle peoples that consume wild Annona fruit,
why this issue has not appeared before.
They seem to have a very high awareness of plant toxins in foods and how to deal with them.
Some of the complex dietary requirements around Hallucinogenic plant use and the use of additional plant species to facilitate the use are fascinating.
It seems unbelievable to me that Annona toxins would not be well known in those cultures if they were a problem.
Perhaps the lifespan of people was shorter and symptoms did not appear, but that seems unlikely.
I wish I had money to throw at this for research. Maybe I can ask around, maybe inspire a chem student or professor, get my college to do some tests? I know they have a centrifuge, and there's a TON of people that eat these. More than likely just wishful thinking :( It's honestly really concerning. But yeah, I'd think they'd know it'd be toxic too but who knows, part of it is symptoms appear so much later than typical 'toxic' foods, so it'd be pretty hard to connect the two compared to something causing immediate upset
edit: I'm reading that people cooking annonas in an attempt to remove the neurotoxin, ended up concentrated it when heating? We need numbers from cold press or something, idek. the rabbit hole only gets deeper
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Hi
So can anyone confirm this i have 2x soursop trees, we dont eat the flesh because we dont like it we do however squeeze the juice out of soursop it makes nice juice. Is the juice likely to be less toxic than eating the flesh do yall think ?
If not these trees are getting ripped out
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Hi
So can anyone confirm this i have 2x soursop trees, we dont eat the flesh because we dont like it we do however squeeze the juice out of soursop it makes nice juice. Is the juice likely to be less toxic than eating the flesh do yall think ?
If not these trees are getting ripped out
Not to scare you, but according to the wiki juice (they refer to it as canned nectar, im assuming nectar = juice) actually has 2x more toxin. : (
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If not these trees are getting ripped out.
It is probably difficult in Rainy Nth Qld, but I would keep your powder dry on that.
In your area alone there are a bunch of fruit freaks who have been eating Annonas for years.
As far as I know none of them has developed symptoms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annonacin
Wikipedia is prone to being hijacked by over zealous experts. Factual but skewed.
This article on Annonacin only covers the toxin in relation to Parkinsons and clusters in Guadeloupe etc
Nothing about the plant itself, why it has a toxin, the wild animals that eat the fruit and disperse seeds, the pests the toxin protects from.
Insecticidal properties of soursop seeds being investigated as a pesticide.
To me that is like discussing Radiation only in the context of an Atomic Bomb.
At this stage of this thread I would say it might be wise to consume in them moderation, but avoid demonising the plants ?
Unfortunately either way I don't think some growers are going to enjoy these fruit as much as before ?
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I have two pawpaws in my yard that were just planted this year and are very young trees and ngl this thread has made me debate replacing them with something else ;D
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I have two pawpaws in my yard that were just planted this year and are very young trees and ngl this thread has made me debate replacing them with something else ;D
As the thread author, sorry! But I think the information is useful. I have deliberately chosen not to plant fruit within this particular group partly due to these concerns and partly because I'm mostly out of space!
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030645220300441X
According to this, glucose consumption can prevent the neuronal cell demise by annonacin. So maybe you should eat a spoonful of sugar with your annonas.
It could be regions that eat annonas are historically poor making refined sugar inaccessible due to costs. The only sugar available would be in fruit and starches which take longer to metabolize. It should be also noted that these poorer regions probably ate less food. Therefore, it'd be harder to prevent the annonacins from killing the neuronal cells since there wasn't a high enough glucose level. Considering the American diet, I think we have it covered when it comes to glucose consumption. Although, it'd be a lot healthier if you use glucose syrup since sucrose and fructose aren't very good for you.
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According to the table on the first page of this discussion, paw paw has approximately 2,000 times the annonacin content of atemoya. Presuming this was indeed the causitive factor, I would need to consume over 600,000 lbs of atemoya pulp in 10 years to get the same effect. Put another way, that is 167 pounds a day for 10 years. I think I'm safe.
This is great news, here I was thinking being an Annona Enthusiast was a death sentence
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According to the table on the first page of this discussion, paw paw has approximately 2,000 times the annonacin content of atemoya. Presuming this was indeed the causitive factor, I would need to consume over 600,000 lbs of atemoya pulp in 10 years to get the same effect. Put another way, that is 167 pounds a day for 10 years. I think I'm safe.
This is great news, here I was thinking being an Annona Enthusiast was a death sentence
I was a bit worried myself until I looked at the numbers and did the math. I probably ate 30 lbs of atemoya this year, but according to the numbers people posted from the study there was less annonacin in that than in one bite of paw paw. I have no concerns at this point, but I have continued to read this thread to stay educated on any new developments in the research.