Author Topic: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent  (Read 6889 times)

Triloba Tracker

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The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« on: February 28, 2014, 09:21:26 PM »
Hey everyone,

Mr. Caimito and I have been laying low for a while. Sort of in a state of depression. Since moving our plants into the grow tent, things have really gone downhill fast. The plants are clinging to life by the root hairs.

One thing recently occurred that has turned me into somewhat of a conspiracy theorist.
My grandfather-in-law recently passed away. He was an avid fruit gardener who loved to try growing any and everything. When he died, we were given a 3.5 foot tall papaya tree in a pot. The tree looked wonderful - deep green, healthy leaves with no sign of any problems.
He had been growing this plant indoors in Kentucky, just in his living room near a large, south-facing window, right next to a heating vent, in a pot with just regular ol' dirt in it, from what I can tell. To boot, the pot was so dry the soil had pulled well away from the sides of the pot.

It was quite a shock to see this huge, healthy papaya doing so well in these conditions when ours have practically died in what we thought would be ideal conditions in the grow tent (warmth, light, humidity, etc).
This then got me thinking about how well our own plants were doing until they went into the tent (granted it was summer/fall).
Combine this with another puzzling experience - I tried to get some basil and cilantro going in little gro-dan rockwool cubes. They sprouted quickly in their ziploc bags but didn't last long once they were exposed to the air, yellowing and eventually blackening despite a watchful eye.

Crud! I can't even grow basil for crying out loud!

Something has to be wrong. So I remembered coming across the topic of outgassing (offgassing, out gassing, whatever) when researching grow tents.

Some quick Googling turns up some people (pot growers, of course) who are CONVINCED their tent was killing their plants in side-by-side comparison situations. It sounds very similar to what we've experienced.

The tent we bought was some no-name made in China thing from a dude on Craigslist.

I am now getting more and more convinced our tent is gassing our plants to death.

Yes? No? Suggestions?

Our house maintains about a 60-65 ambient temp at best in the winter and we have very limited south-facing window space (currently occupied by our fig and the giant papaya which is doing pretty well even in the cool, drier air).

I don't know if it's safe to put the plants out in those conditions. I suppose another alternative is to strip the tent off the frame and throw-up some clear plastic.

Or I may be totally crazy and there's something else killing our plants (poor soil, improper humidity, fungus gnats - all concerns of mine).

HELP!  :'( :'( We're literally at the end of our rope on this one. Considering throwing in the towel.

JeffDM

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »
I don't have the time to list all the plants I've killed, maimed or tortured with my good intentions.
Sure there's some level of skill involved in growing plants, but in the home environment there's also a lot of trial and error.

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 10:23:42 PM »
sorry to hear about your chamber of death.

I doubt they're being gassed...some pictures might help us figure out what's going on.

good luck with this years growing season!
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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 12:02:24 AM »
I bet if your grandfather in law could come back he could tell you of all the plants that he also killed. We tend to only see other people's successes. Even here most people will post about their successes, and very little about their failures. Nobody wants to think of their failures, but that is really where we learn the most. It's very difficult to tell from your description what the problem really was. Whatever the problem really is i'd say don't throw in the towel. Study it and figure it out. The good gardener is the perseverant gardener. The stuff about green thumbs is merely a myth that glosses over all our failures.
Oscar

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 01:43:07 AM »
I've heard the difference between a regular gardener and a 'master' gardener is that the master gardener has killed more plants.  You guys are well on your way.  I've killed tons of plants, some that cost $$, some that had personal attachment for me and of course lots of others.  The key to keeping the alive is not letting the plants know how special they are to you.  Neglect, neglect, neglect. ::)  Once they figure out they are special, they start to die.  BTW, dont underestimate a sunny window.  I overwinter a bunch of plants in my S. facing windows but I have them in pvc and plastic sheeting greenhouses to protect them from the heater and keep humidity up.

Are you sure you guys didn't pull a 3 Stooges move and double up the care? ;D

Some plastic material when heated releases fumes, perhaps some of this is going on in you tent?  Indoor pot growers can make some serious $$$ and the better the finished product the more $, so I imagine they pay close attention to their plants.  So maybe the cheap tent from China is killing your plants?  Can you get your hands on mylar rolls or perhaps paint some sheets of wood white, something to reflect the light back.  Maybe use some metal conduit to create a structure and wrap it in plastic, just make sure none of this touches your light.....or maybe just try the sunny window?

Good luck and dont give up!

Zambezi

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 02:54:57 AM »
Triloba Tracker

So sorry to hear about your Grandfather-in-laws passing.
Don't give up Triloba... you can do it!! You mentioned the fig and giant papaya are doing well.. Now that's a great thing!!..:) You're doing something right, and that's worth cheering about.  8)

We've all made our mistakes with plants, and you don't learn till you make one. Inspite of my Forum name, I can't tell you how many times I've turned things brown or black!! You say you lost some basil... hehe I've lost some cocoa to wrong humidity, some garcinias, many jabos seeds.. Oh a few mangoes too.. some nice beautiful fruit-bearing ones to a cold snap, or fungus, or deer rutting!! Almost wanted to kill that deer for dinner that night..:P Almost!!  My point is that don't give up, just pick up where you last left off and try again. :) Try and try and then.. try again, all the while having fun of course. You will get that Basil and Cilantro to grow! Spring is almost around the corner. You just let me know, I've tons of basil seeds to share till you get them to grow!

Oscar's right, sometimes growing plants, may it be herbs, flowers, roses, and in our case fruit trees etc.,  does require patience. Then add to it some hard work, some know how, and lots and lots of hands on training! Growing some of these fruit trees is like a relationship you nurture, you get to know exactly what the trees like, or don't like, what makes them tick,or what makes them peeved.

I have never used a grow tent, but I do bring lots of plants indoors in winter. Some go into the garage, but the ultra-tropicals, and most seeds, or grafted plants come in. I've had a few issues with low humidity, and spider mites and this yr, GNATS!! Unbeknownst to me, this year I brought in a green gecko lizard that made a home in my Avocado. My cat found it before I did!  :o  Growing indoors is not easy, but it's doable, with trial and error. With the heat on, it's very drying to the soil and to leaves, so you constantly have to keep an eye on the watering. Spider mites love the dry condition and too much water and you've Gnats or other bugs!!

Humidity issues have been different for different plants. Some do just fine and don't mind it at all. Some I've lost some leaves but other than that are fine, like my mangoes, miracle berry or jabo. Then there's things like rambutan; it definitely needed to be tented.
Some plants thrive on neglect. I know you've heard of, or seen those gorgeous trees that when you ask the owner what they do special to make the plant fruit as much, or flower, or just have such beautiful glossy leaves, they tell you, "Nothing". Jujubes and figs for example, you plant and then forget till fruit time. Others need more attention. I have to admit I do ''baby" my mangoes, and I still haven't had a ripe fruit from my trees. :)

If you feel the tent's the problem, try tenting the structure with the clear plastic or try growing them in the open near the south facing window, where the fig and papaya are happy.  And see if you can add a picture, so we can see what the problem might be.

Don't give up...  ;)



« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:02:23 AM by GreenThumb »

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 08:14:39 AM »
I've heard the difference between a regular gardener and a 'master' gardener is that the master gardener has killed more plants.  You guys are well on your way.  I've killed tons of plants, some that cost $$, some that had personal attachment for me and of course lots of others.  The key to keeping the alive is not letting the plants know how special they are to you.  Neglect, neglect, neglect. ::)  Once they figure out they are special, they start to die.  BTW, dont underestimate a sunny window.  I overwinter a bunch of plants in my S. facing windows but I have them in pvc and plastic sheeting greenhouses to protect them from the heater and keep humidity up.


yup, yup, yup.  LOVE KILLS.

If I were you Triloba, I'd focus far more on the soil and light than on what is in the air, not that humidity is not important to some plants.  Gradual patient changes.

Bananimal

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 08:32:28 AM »
I seem to be killing off stuff less these days.   I'm now convinced it's watering.  Too much water will set up all kinds of plant damaging conditions.  I almost lost my Ae Ae mat last year.  Found out, after unusually heavy rains, that that area is the lowest in my yard and had 4 inches of standing water for over a day.  That's unusual in sandy sugar  soil.  So I shut off the water lines to that entire area and today the mat is producing big healthy pups.  No irrigation water for a year and surrounding plants are fine also.

Take a hint from your grandfather-in-laws dried out 3.5 foot tall papaya tree in a pot.  A good way to test for when water is needed is to lift a dry potted plant to get a feel for the weight.  Water once sparingly.  Come back later and water only when the weight feels noticeably lighter.  Kinda tough with 30 gal pots though.  lol
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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 09:26:30 AM »
Just a quick reply for now and I will get back with more details....I may post a video or something too.

But for now: Thanks so much to all of you for the encouragement and help!!!!!!!!

luc

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2014, 12:21:13 PM »
I never had to use a grow tent or similar , but if it makes you feel better I even manage to kill full grown trees , the last victim is a Chrysophyllum argenteum .
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simon_grow

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2014, 02:05:36 PM »
Hey Tribola, I highly doubt it is off gassing that is killing your plants. Can you give some more details how you are growing in your tent? Are you growing hydroponically? What type of light and how many air exchanges are you giving your plants?

Your Basil probably died from damping off, just a guess but this is a common cause of seeds sprouting and then dying shortly after, especially if you use the wet paper towel in a ziplock bag.

If using potting soil in a grow tent, some people kill their plants by not watering enough. Most people will underwater their plants to avoid runoff because it is physically intensive to dispose of the excess water. It is important to water your plants so that you have about 10-20% runoff to flush away excess salts and accumulated organic matter if growing organically.

This may sound contradictory to what I just said but the next big killer is people tend to water too frequently. Because growing in a tent can cause a buildup of humidity, especially if you do not have enough air exchanges, the water does not evaporate as quickily as it does outdoors. Also, the water does not dry up from the soil evenly, especially if you packed your tent. This is because the light in your tent causes fast evaporation from the canopy of your plant so the tops of the plant are able to transpire but at the same time, the dense canopy can shade out the soil in the container so the areas below the canopy in the soil of the container is not evaporating moisture properly. The roots are able to pull moisture from the soil in areas where the roots have direct contact to the soil particles but if the root mass has not entirely filled the container, this is when issues normally arise.

Do you notice any dried or salty crusty areas on the top of your soil if you are growing in soil?

No, I do not how any types of herbs. I used to work for a company that had huge greenhouses and worked a lot with beneficial bacteria and fungi. I also live in an area that gets cold in winter so I purchased a small tent to keep my cold sensitive and grafted plants growing through the winter and I've killed many many plants so I've been through this before.

The more details you give us, the more we can try and remedy your issues.
Simon

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2014, 07:38:38 PM »
My only advice for growing papaya seedlings out of zone is to keep them very dry during the winter. When the temps are warm in the summer they can handle all the water you want to give them but in the winter I barely water mine (I keep them with my cactus collection).

I have what could be called a grow tent inside my rather cool greenhouse (I'm in zone 7) and I open it up during the sunny part of the day to reduce the humidity. When light levels are low (wintertime) plants slow down and rot can take over.

I lose more than I succeed with, and I have certain plants that I won't try ever growing again it is just too painful to lose them.

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 09:40:34 PM »
Thanks again everyone.

I managed to take a video of the tent with commentary, so folks can see what we have going on.

But first, here's a picture of where we started (wow this makes me even more depressed! LOL):


Grow Tent

I surely hope we are indeed not having off gassing issues, as this would be a pain to remedy.

As for watering, I think definitely our issue has been overwatering versus underwatering. Hence all the fungus gnats. Weeks and weeks ago I was convinced my issues were related to root rot (compounded perhaps by the gnat larvae), so I got all the components for textbook Al's Gritty Mix and also ordered some superoots pots. Then I came to understand that transplanting tropicals can be very dicey, so I've held off. (I've been busy too).
But Henry and I decided that before we just give up (at least with these particular plants) we would try the repot. The goal is to do it tomorrow - I've gotten lots of advice from other posts and PM's from folks so I feel mostly prepared.

My main concern is keeping the humidity up, so I'm now thinking of putting each plant in it's own large clear trash bag, inside the tent.

Any suggestions are welcome - Again thanks to everyone for their input. Some really great advice here. .too much to thank each of you personally  :)

Oh but one question to TriangleJohn - do you know if there's even any hope of fruiting these papayas considering they were grown from seeds from a grocery-store fruit? I haven't researched it yet...

simon_grow

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 12:24:02 AM »
Watching your video provided lots of information. Looks like you are using HID type lighting like HPS or Metal Halide and that is probably not the best light for your situation. You should consider T5 lighting so you can move it closer to your sick plants and all your plants do look sick or dying. Your plants look like they may have unhealthy roots due to the poor growing conditions. At the distance you have your light away from the average height of your canopy, you are wasting a lot of usable light but putting your type of lighting closer to your sick plants may also kill them. If you want to keep using your light that you currently have, the distance you have it at may be ok until your plants recover.

I believe you are not watering your plants thoroughly, I say this because the water capture trays you are using do not permit 10-20% runoff. Also you should water your plants twice, once to rewet the surface layer and then again to soak the soil thoroughly and it's very important to have the runoff. If you are overwatering, you can check the bottom of your pot, not the top, for moisture and anaerobic smells. I do not recommend using organic soils in indoor grow situations because of the gnat problems.

You said in the video that you were using controlled release fertilizers but I would recommend a wet solution type fertilizer instead because you have better control of the nutrients that your plants are getting. You also mentioned that you usually keep the flaps of your tent closed in order to hold in the humidity but the plants require air exchanges in order for them to get the carbon dioxide and fresh oxygen that they require.

If you repot, take a picture of the roots, I would assume they don't look healthy at all and have not filled the pot. For some of your plants, the container size you chose was too big. When you moved the dirt on the top of your soil in the video, it looked like you have a fast draining soil mix. This combined with an oversized pot can actually starve your plants of water because the root system of your plants have not entirely filled the volume of the container.

It is risky but one of the ways you may be able to save your plants is to repot them into an appropriately sized container with new Indoor potting soil that you purchase from a good supplier. The size of your pot should be a little larger than the root mass, it's actually more complicated than this but I don't eat to go into too much detail. cherimoya have deep roots an like a tall narrow pot, this will help them develop a nice root system which is the foundation for a healthier tree in the long run.

Instead of trying to make these sick trees better, it may be wise to grow new trees since many of your trees are seedlings anyways. Replanting fresh trees and growing them properly may give you a better and larger tree in shorter time compared to recovering your trees back into a healthy state. I would just keep the sick trees you have and try to recover them with the suggestions from members of this forum and in the meantime replant new seeds and bank on them instead.

The sick trees can be used as an experiment from which you can learn what you did wrong. Your papaya tree also looked like it was suffering from some type of fungal disease possibly caused by the stale air in your tent and overall unhealthy growing conditions. Don't give up hope, the more problems you run into and overcome, the better the gardener you will become. I've killed so many plants in my days and I'm still killing plants to this day but every year I gain a little more knowledge.
Simon

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 08:34:14 AM »
Thanks for the input, Simon!

I will have to get back to you....I put annotations in the video explaining several things that you addressed in your reply, but it appears that the annotations didn't stick. Very frustrating - that took me a little time to do. Going to Youtube now to see what the deal is and will get back to you.

EDIT:
Oh, no-  now the annotations do show up...the text in the video providing commentary. Did you see those when you watched?
They address some of the things you mentioned like the light, my watering method, etc.

At any rate - thanks for the help. As you can see, we are complete newbies at this. Basically we've never grown anything in a pot in our lives until we started trying to grow this stuff. Maybe not the best place to start! But as you say, definitely have learned a lot but still more to go, obviously.

EDIT 2:
I think maybe the annotations don't show up on mobile phones: they don't show on my iPhone 4S but they show fine on my PC.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 08:51:04 AM by Triloba Tracker »

Mark in Texas

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 01:21:25 PM »
Tents come with a lot of baggage, problems.   You do have an exhaust fan in there for air exchange, don't you?   

Get a light meter that registers to 10K f.c.  Your plants need an average of 6,000  for a photoperiod of 18/6.

Agree with the other poster, you probably lost your herbs to damping off, pythium.

If you don't have abundant foliage and a robust rootstock to match, you'll not have good wicking action.   Means root rot is at work here.  Usually when the top looks poor, the root system is gone.

Quote
As you can see, we are complete newbies at this. Basically we've never grown anything in a pot in our lives until we started trying to grow this stuff. Maybe not the best place to start!

There's the problem.  Recommend a trip to the library to learn the basics.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:57:35 PM by Mark in Texas »

Triloba Tracker

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 01:58:10 PM »
Thanks, Mark.

No, we don't have an exhaust fan.

I appreciate the links you shared a while ago on common plant myths and mistakes and basics, etc.

Mark in Texas

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 03:57:15 PM »
Yeah, Dr. Walker is a champ. 

You've got to have air exchange.    Think nature and then try to duplicate all the cultural factors that you can that is common to that species.

Some use a computer fan.  Guess you could unzip it and have a fan outside blowing air in.  what you've got is a   perfect environment for disease pressure.

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 09:06:37 PM »
Learning how to grow indoors is tricky and very different from growing outdoors.  Moving things inside for the winter and outside for summer is even trickier, as you're dealing with two completely different growing situations.  But don't let a few sick / dead plants get you down; we all learned to grow plants by killing a lot of them (I'm in the thousands, at least).  I've even lost 400+ several-year-old plants in one day about 10 years ago when my air conditioner failed and my grow room got up past 120 degrees...  Everything is a learning experience.

Oscar is also very correct when he points out that people tend to only notice the successes-- if you have many plants that are doing OK, most people don't notice the few sick ones.
 
Outgassing of plastics can be a problem, but I doubt it would cause the kind of issues you're seeing, especially after having your tent up for several months.  Ventilation will help in the long run, after everything has gotten over the shock of bare-rooting.

   Kevin


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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 05:59:16 AM »
My initial hunch is that you moved your plants too rapidly from outdoor growing environment into your indoor growing environment. Plants don't like very sudden changes and that alone can often result in stress. So some of them might yet snap out of it. I would remove all dead leaves and also any plant close to croaking. I think also increasing humidity above 65% would also be helpful, especially with that oscillating fan constantly blowing on them and rapidly drying them out. Exhaust fan i think is necessary to keep good air circulation occuring. I agree with Simon about getting new plants. It might be good to get at least a couple more healthy plants in there to see if the changes you make are helpful.
Indoor growing is an art in itself and i'm sure the indoor growing gurus can give you much more specific information and steer you in the right direction. Like everything else in life, once you learn how to do it then it becomes very simple.
Oscar

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 08:58:32 AM »
Fruiting Papayas in zone 7 - yes it can be done easily if you start the seeds one year, keep them in pots and sheltered over their first winter and then plant them in the ground or large pots the following summer (early as possible). But I have never been able to get the fruit to ripen before first frost. Even when the fruit are full size in the first week of June and the fruit stay on the tree all the way til late November they have never even tried to ripen. I ate a lot of Green Papaya Salad. This year I am keeping at least one tree in a large pot in the greenhouse and hoping the fruit will ripen for me. This year I am trying a dwarf one - Waimanalo from Oscar. I'm hoping they will stay shorter and easier to move around. The normal grocery store ones have done fine for me but they get very big and heavy and therefore hard to move.

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 09:12:07 PM »
Thanks Kevin, Oscar, and T.J.

Well, all this talk and advice got my juices flowing again, so Mr. Caimito and I finally bit the bullet and repotted everything but the Cherimoyas (hasta la vista) and one of our papayas.

Weeks ago I had assembled some gritty mix and ordered some Superoots pots, so we finally did it.

Relying heavily (i.e. exclusively) on the advice of several of you, Mr. Caimito and I carefully unpotted everything, cleaned the roots carefully by hand, then in a 75F water bath, then soaked in a 75F bath with 1tsp each of Dynagro Grow and KLN per gallon for 15-25 minutes.

We then potted in the superoots pots (3-gal equivalents), which I outfitted with rayon mop-thread wicks (just in case I need help gauging dryness). Plants were watered-in thoroughly with the leftover nutrient bath.

What we found when bare-rooting the plants was very eye-opening. The Coffee and Papayas had light-colored roots that had circled the bottom of the pot - relatively healthy, considering. But this indicates that something else other than root rot was hindering these plants. Nutrient deficiency? Light? Air quality? Not sure, but definitely looking at lack of air circulation as a major player. The light is puzzling to me...though likely we've incorrectly attributed some plant symptoms to the light being too close.

The Mango and Muntingia, on the other hand, had very small root masses, and the roots that were there were nearly black and smelled funky (I didn't sniff the healthier looking plants  :P). You can see the difference in the pictures below.

For the muntingia, this wasn't so much of a surprise since it looked pretty bad. I was annoyed, however, that the Muntingia's pot had a very clear PWT, a line where the soil turned quite wet and the roots stopped. (though fixing this was the whole point of the gritty mix).
The Mango I knew had issues but was surprised that (1) the soil was as damp as it was considering I hadn't watered it in 3 weeks or more, and (2) that the plant had managed to flush growth a few weeks ago despite the horrid-looking root system.
Here are some pics of the event:

muntingia
Papaya

Mango

Taking a bath

We raised the light in the tent considerably, placed several trays of water in the middle and aimed the fan over them for increased evaporation and thus humidity.

This whole thing began around the idea of air quality, but now that we've repotted like this, I am assuming the higher priority is high humidity. So we've closed-up the tent to keep the moisture in. Opening a side flap for 30 seconds or so drops the humidity 10%. With the light on, we're up to 65%. Peak during the light off-cycle is up to 83%.

Not sure if the Mango and Muntingia will make it, but figured it couldn't hurt.

If anyone has any suggestions on making the transplants successful, we'd welcome that.  Thanks!

Triloba Tracker

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Re: The Chamber of Death - our Grow Tent
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2014, 03:09:36 PM »
Cold, rainy Saturday in May so figured I'd tie-up some loose ends on some threads I'd started.

Over two months out from the bare-root process, I'm sad to say that the mango and Muntingia both gave up the ghost. Not surprising when you look at the pictures above - the roots were just toast.

The papaya and the coffee are doing fine. We've had them out of the tent for about 3 weeks. The coffee has put on several new leaves. The papaya hasn't done much but we haven't been giving it very good growing conditions....it's not consistently warm enough for it to be outside yet (but it's been spending a few warm days outside).

The papaya we inherited is still going strong.

In the final analysis, we learned a LOT about container growing and indoor growing. I would like to get some healthy plants this summer and try the tent again over the winter, this time with a humidifier and exhaust fan. I also plan to stay away from peat soils due to fungus gnat and root-rot issues, since the latter was our primary killer.