Author Topic: Fire in the Amazon...  (Read 5839 times)

ajeshcool47

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Fire in the Amazon...
« on: August 24, 2019, 12:37:04 AM »
Very sad to read various articles about the current fire in the Amazon, some says it is man made ..what is actually happening, can anybody from Brazil give a clear picture...

giorgosgr

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2019, 02:39:59 AM »


I am not from Brazil but its not that all the other years there were no fires... its just worse this year. In 2016 it was nearly the same but then noone outside Brazil at least cared

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2019, 03:45:05 AM »
Those are man made fires to clear the land for agriculture and infrastructure.
People voted for it and the fires are made by politicians.

All the fruit

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2019, 05:47:39 AM »
It seems that the new president needs to please his agrobusiness supporters so he had allowed large scale logging and burning even inside national parks and Native American reservations😡

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2019, 07:26:10 AM »
This is an intersting subject to me and I do have friends in Brazil devoted to forest regeneration of degeraded land.
One interesting fact which is mostly overlooked is that recent deforestation has decreased a lot in the past ten years, when compared on a longer scale. Compare this graph which ends at 2013 to the one previously posted by giorgosgr which begins in 2013:
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/11/annual-rate-of-legal-deforestation-in-the-amazon-in-km2-per-year-197788-2013-inpe0.png


So as bad as it is now, on a longer scale deforestation rates have improved.

Ironically, in some pre-colombian Amazonian forests, indigenous small scale agroforestry practices used fire especially in an understory to clear land. This pattern was in certain areas  and not across the whole of Amazonia, but a look at those areas has some important lessons.
The fire appears to have been used in the understory and is believed to have left much of the overstory intact while changing the species composition towards human used plants. Rsearchers can determine what grew by looking at pollen species and abundance. In the mid 1800's- 1920's, there was a rubber boom time in which fire was suppressed to maintain fire intolerant rubber trees. After that time, management includes fire suppression which alters the flammable wood load such that mega fires capable of caopy destruction takes place.
Here is the graphic:
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/380121/fevo-06-00111-HTML/image_m/fevo-06-00111-g010.jpg

Lastly, while discussion recently has focused politically on Brazil which has the largest forest, 60% of the Amazon is in Brazil. The second largest portion of deforestation takes place in socialist Bolivia and other countries.
This shows deforestation other than Brazil (site has much more data):
https://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/rainforests/photos/amazon_annual_deforestation_no_brazil.jpg

There is a lot of pressure across the world to make incomes and food for people. There are ways to reforest degraded land which are regenerative of forests. Have a look at what agroforestry can do. I follow their agroforestry techniques closely and am using some of them here in Florida. here is an introductory video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSPNRu4ZPvE&t

Orkine

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2019, 07:26:30 AM »
Fire is a natural and necessary part of land management and could be a good thing.
The only questions is if the logging and clearing is contributing to more frequent fire regime that does not allow regeneration of the ecosystem between episodes.

In my assessment, many reporters/bloggers have become lazy and will more readily sensationalize a story than create one to truly inform.  I hope someone on the forum with expertise in this subject and knowledge of what is happening in the Amazon can give us a comprehensive report. 
Pineislander, thanks for your post.  I was writing this when you posted but your post confirms my suspicion that there was more sensationalization and politics  in the current stories.
I still hope a forest management expert can weigh in and improve our knowledge.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:30:44 AM by Orkine »

frukt

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 08:22:00 AM »
I think its easy to blame brazil for burning the amazon but its not a local problem. Exploiting nature is a fundamental part of capitalism and then I think europe and Us are using more of the goodies then brazil. So they shouldnt through stones in the glasshouse and they shouldnt put anyone else then themselves in the shaming corner.

shot

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2019, 09:01:12 AM »
Socialist or capitalism or population growth in developing countries


Lastly, while discussion recently has focused politically on Brazil which has the largest forest, 60% of the Amazon is in Brazil. The second largest portion of deforestation takes place in socialist Bolivia and other countries.
This shows deforestation other than Brazil (site has much more data):
https://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/rainforests/photos/amazon_annual_deforestation_no_brazil.jpg

johnb51

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2019, 09:01:20 AM »
I've read that 20% of earth's oxygen comes from the Amazon rainforest, and 20% of the Amazon has been lost already.  If another 20% is lost, it will basically stop functioning and degrade into a desert.  I don't if you call that "sensationalism" or not, but it sounds very grim and should probably be taken seriously.  Also, when these lands are used for agriculture, they're only good for about 15 years before the soil is depleted.  I don't know.  Is that sensationalism and environmental propaganda?  Bolsonaro has blamed environmental NGO's for starting the fires.  Does this even make sense?
John

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2019, 09:02:24 AM »
Exploiting nature is a fundamental way of living for everyone, whether you are a Capitalist, Communist, Socialist or any other kind of -ist. The question is what is the effects on the area you are employing for your survival. The Amazon basin is pretty darn important for our planetary system as a whole. It makes a bunch of the oxygen we breathe, and a lot of CO2 that our trees need to feed us. I don't think anyone is shaming the Brazilians or the Bolivians. And when you try to shame the EU or USA think about how much aid we send annually to those areas.

frukt

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2019, 09:18:09 AM »
Exploiting nature is a fundamental way of living for everyone, whether you are a Capitalist, Communist, Socialist or any other kind of -ist. The question is what is the effects on the area you are employing for your survival. The Amazon basin is pretty darn important for our planetary system as a whole. It makes a bunch of the oxygen we breathe, and a lot of CO2 that our trees need to feed us. I don't think anyone is shaming the Brazilians or the Bolivians. And when you try to shame the EU or USA think about how much aid we send annually to those areas.

Yes we are paying some tp protect the amazon. And its also true that socialist countries exploit. And I think we have the right to. But I think we exploit to much. We import soya to feed our animals so we can have an unnaturally high meat consumtion. And milk and too. Whats wrong with european grass? Maybe there is simply not enough and thats why we import goodies from other countries that then have to deal with the eco-problems. Its called out-sourcing and europe are experts. Thats why I attack europe and Us because this is the countries that show their fingers to others while not cleaning their own front. Im a european myself but I try not take more then i need.

johnb51

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2019, 09:21:21 AM »
You would think that collectively the world would want to save this irreplaceable resource, but there is no political will to take any big steps so I guess we change nothing and merrily march along to human extinction.  No one is to blame except human ingenuity that has thoroughly exploited cheap abundant energy for the past 200 years.  Let's enjoy our fruit trees while we can (and I'm not being facetious or sarcastic).  If you wish to face the truth of the situation, I'd recommend:  http://www.catherineingram.com/facingextinction/  But be preapared to experience a seismic shift in your perspective!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 12:46:23 PM by johnb51 »
John

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2019, 10:11:04 AM »
This is a crucial topic expanding far beyond "Amazon fires". As man-made climate change progresses, it is accelerated by events like "Amazon fires".
Drastic measures should have been taken place 20 years ago and The Paris Accord would have been great then. Now, in my opinion, it is too little and too late. Not everyone is on board! By the time world governments UNIFORMLY agree that immediate GLOBAL action is required, frequency and severity of disasters connected to climate change will be irreversible.

Also, solutions to effectively combat climate change on all fronts simultaneously will require changes (sacrifices) in everyones lifestyle, in both developed and third world countries.

That is my very general critical view on this problem, are we truly ready?
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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2019, 10:11:36 AM »
While there may be less burning of rainforest now than in the past, the stakes are much higher now. It's like a person saying they  "used to smoke 2 packs a day, but now only 1 pack, so that's better." The aging and depleted lungs can't take what the young ones can. So too, the Amazon. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 10:13:31 AM by roblack »

achetadomestica

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2019, 10:13:50 AM »
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

FMfruitforest

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2019, 10:43:51 AM »
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

I agree more trees should be planted, but its bandaid on a bullethole at this point
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2019-04-28/bonn-challenge-plant-a-tree-save-the-climate-isn-t-enough

kalan

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2019, 11:26:16 AM »
I agree with some of the posts here: pointing out that a country is socialist or capitalist is absolutely unhelpful and takes the conversation in an irrelevant direction. The fact is that humans consume resources, and without some type of government intervention and education, these resources will be depleted beyond sustainable levels. This is, literally the tragedy of the global commons.

That said, everything in the world is NOT simply "Media Hype" because we wither don't want to be inconvenienced by distressing realities. The Rainforests of South America are not only the planets lungs, and a major heat sink, they are a source of untapped potential ethnobotanical cures among other possibilities. Taking the large scale destruction of this biome is the absolute least we can do.

And while true the deforestation rates over the past decade have shown a slow-down, that slow-down is still not a sustainable trajectory. Couple that with the fact that this land clearing has ramped up in the last 12-18 months should not be considered an anomaly. This is human action. Not lightning strikes. What is driving that action? Poverty? Lax government oversight? Poor education? Greed?


Those last four questions need to be considered seriously.

Hil

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2019, 11:38:09 AM »
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

Working on it  ;D
We're planning to plant forest on 7 hectares of degraded, "matorral" land. That's a bit over 24 acres for your guys across the pond.
5 out of the 7 hectares will be planted with drought- and fire-resistant natives, the rest with the good stuff.  8)
That is, if we get a reforestation grant. Otherwise it will be a long-term project   ::)

giorgosgr

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2019, 11:47:33 AM »
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

This is many times a dangerous solution for example in my country, Greece all nearly all replantings in burned areas are of pine trees creating a big problem for biodiversity and only few animals can thrive with the absence of all the other trees that were common in the area. Another example that i can remember is that https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/06/gold-pakistan-plants-hundreds-millions-trees-180626095806407.html
So imagine having a forest in pakistan that has a big variety of trees and fruit trees that can sustain many animals and then have only eucalyptus.... Unless the main animal in pakistan is koala this is a big problem that nearly no one considers. The only thing that happens for reforestation is "plant something that grows quickly"  even if its not local

Orkine

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2019, 01:42:41 PM »
Skippint the politics.

Fire is good for forests and occurs naturally.

Why is this particular fire bad?

Is it occuring sooner than it should, more intense than it should, larger than it should, what is the problem with this fire?
I was hoping someone will have a fact base discussion about the fire itself.  Is this a good or a bad fire? Why is it bad?

giorgosgr

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2019, 02:01:22 PM »
The problem is that its not natural (its manmade) and there is no intention to let any of the burned area reganerate normally. Most of those areas will be used as farmlands or for mining. If that area would be let to replant itself and in 20 years grow full size then the problem wouldnt be that big

frukt

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2019, 02:36:45 PM »
I agree with some of the posts here: pointing out that a country is socialist or capitalist is absolutely unhelpful and takes the conversation in an irrelevant direction. The fact is that humans consume resources, and without some type of government intervention and education, these resources will be depleted beyond sustainable levels. This is, literally the tragedy of the global commons.

That said, everything in the world is NOT simply "Media Hype" because we wither don't want to be inconvenienced by distressing realities. The Rainforests of South America are not only the planets lungs, and a major heat sink, they are a source of untapped potential ethnobotanical cures among other possibilities. Taking the large scale destruction of this biome is the absolute least we can do.

And while true the deforestation rates over the past decade have shown a slow-down, that slow-down is still not a sustainable trajectory. Couple that with the fact that this land clearing has ramped up in the last 12-18 months should not be considered an anomaly. This is human action. Not lightning strikes. What is driving that action? Poverty? Lax government oversight? Poor education? Greed?


Those last four questions need to be considered seriously.

I think that its totally necesary to talk about the root of the problem. Why are people destroying the planet that is suppose to provide them? If you let capital decide then there is only one value.

pvaldes

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2019, 03:08:06 PM »
Fire is a natural and necessary part of land management 

Hem,... not.

Fires created by man after chopping trees in a rainforest are definitely criminal, not natural, Rainforest is a biocenose in a relatively fire proof state because... well... it rains each day. Old forests tend to make its own rain,

As management,, changing tons of mangoes, durians and figs, by, duh... cinder and soy, is outrageously stupid.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 03:13:01 PM by pvaldes »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2019, 03:22:17 PM »
The Amazon rainforest grows on the poorest soil in the world.Basically there is just a desert and the forest took thousands of years to establish.
After burning the forest for agriculture ,that land will only be good for 10-20 years and after that it will become an  unusable desert.
The bad soil there is the reason those tribes never evolved to have giant cityes and civilisations long term and at least the tribal people used to make terra preta to improove the soil not just burning it to be turned into a desert in 15 years .
Expect stronger hurricanes in USA due to global warming,drought ,etc.
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2019, 03:55:07 PM »
I've done some more fact checking. The reported number of fires has been around 74,000. However, the system in Brazil is not able to discriminate between pasture burning and forest fires. Pasture burning is very common and August is the traditional time. So, no one knows exactly how much of the reported number of fires are due to deforestation activities or burning of grassland pastures. In fact, pay close attention to aerial and ground video of the fires and you will see pasture and scrub vegetation being burnt as well as previously cleared land.


The root of this appears to be related to a reported statement by President Bolsonaro in which he allegedly said some groups have been burning to embarrass him. I found that several weeks ago such a group of farmers did indeed plan a "dia do fogo" (day of fire).
here is the inception of the fires as discussed on August 5th:
 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search