Author Topic: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything  (Read 1422 times)

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« on: May 19, 2022, 08:47:55 AM »
Hi,

last summer I bought a trifoliate orange from oscar tintori, 3 very nice developed plants grown into one huge root crown. The plant was full of small leaves but they sawed (I can still see the saw tooth ridges) some thicker branches to fit in the box.

In autumn it loses it's leaves, which is normal since it's deciduous, but now we're May and it's been getting plenty of sun, it got the usual slow release fertilizer mid march, the branches look green and lush, though some thorns and where it was sawed off have a yellow edge.
There are no signs of new buds, flowers of leaves, there are also no signs of damage or degradation, the branches do not turn brown or do not dry out, so I am confused as to why it isn't doing anything.
It was transplanted in a bigger pot with good soil mix last summer upon arrival, roots were washed out, the plant did not suiffer from this at all, I expected leaf drop but there was nothing, so I was happy to have a strong plant, but now I am wondering if he's adapting to our climate or needs a year to recover from the pruning or something else?

It stayed in my greenhouse in the winter, since it's cold hardy no additional protection was needed.
The only thing that still has leaves is a very young tiny shoot between those 3 plants but that one remains small. Since they're all grown from seed and not grafted , it's not a sucker so removal should not be required.

brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2542
    • Pennsylvania (zone 6) w/ heated greenhouse
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2022, 11:48:57 AM »
If the wood is green it will grow eventually.  I have seen my container trifoliate seedlings sit in dormancy for long periods of time without explanation, but they always resume growth eventually.  The one I have planted outdoors in the ground is a very slow grower. 

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2022, 01:18:07 PM »
Ah ok, thanks for the reassuring :)
I just hope it won't miss out on our small summer.

vnomonee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • Zone 7a northeastern NJ
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2022, 01:49:06 PM »
My fast flowering trifoliate is just a green stick. Not dying but not growing either. No leaves since last summer lol

Walt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 02:23:09 PM »
My FFP hasn't leafed out yet either, yjough trunk and branches look good.  Ponciris+ just started leaves a week ago, so I'm not worried yet.

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 02:31:25 PM »
ok, thanks for confirming this everyone, i fel much more relieved now:D
I was worried they'd damaged him too bad from pruning and he'd be in some sort of emergency recovery mode with a chance of dying but glad to hear it's not :)

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2022, 03:18:08 AM »
In the beginning I also sent this question to oscar tintori but they gave me a rather weird reply:

Quote
if the vegetation does not restart, probably the reason is the rootstock. If the rootstock doesn't develop, maybe there is a stagnation of water or a fungus attack.
Our suggestion is bringinging the plants to restart growing with a pruning that togeter with the temperatures of this season and the fertilisation could let the vegetation growing again.

this trifoliate "is" the rootstock lol, they said it was from seeds themselves xD oh god, i fear language issues are at hand here

pagnr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 568
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2022, 05:18:38 AM »
I think you could use the word "rootstock" as "root system" in the case of a seedling trifoliata.
Normally I would resist pruning to fix root issues.
However in some case with weak plants that try to flush too many buds, pruning back can help a better flush ( on less buds ).
It has also been said that trifoliata thorns can also photosynthesise prior to leaf emergence, so don't trim them in some cases.


incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 10:01:09 AM »
I think you could use the word "rootstock" as "root system" in the case of a seedling trifoliata.
Normally I would resist pruning to fix root issues.
However in some case with weak plants that try to flush too many buds, pruning back can help a better flush ( on less buds ).
It has also been said that trifoliata thorns can also photosynthesise prior to leaf emergence, so don't trim them in some cases.

Don't worry, I was not planning on pruning anything, not even thorns. All I did last month was prune awy 2 small parts that were just inconvenient in the way, but even there i see no change so their theory did not work.
I'll just wait patiently.

mikkel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 06:21:03 PM »
Have you looked for snails? I have several types of citrus close to each other in my garden, some are attacked by snails, others are not. I just discovered it by chance, because they appear only in the evening. The slugs specifically attack the new growth, so it looks like the plant is still in dormancy.

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2022, 06:05:40 AM »
Have you looked for snails? I have several types of citrus close to each other in my garden, some are attacked by snails, others are not. I just discovered it by chance, because they appear only in the evening. The slugs specifically attack the new growth, so it looks like the plant is still in dormancy.

The plant is in a container on my terrasse, no snails there, they never come anywhere near that place ;)
In my greenhouse however where my other citrus and pepper plants are, I did place anti snail stuff because they do appear there but this year they weer in small numbers.

Walt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2022, 10:25:53 AM »
Finally the Fast Flowering Ponciris I got from Laaz last summer is showing new growth.  There are 5 tiny new branches with leaves.  The longest is about one cm., which is really small, but it the start of new growth,

citrange

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • UK - 15 miles west of London
    • View Profile
    • Home Citrus growers
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2022, 11:00:31 AM »
I have been growing the fast-flowering Poncirus for many years. In a really good citrus climate in seems to grow OK, but in cooler climates growth is extremely weak. The largest of my plants are still only about 20cms (18") tall. Yes, it does flower before other seedling trifoliates, but the flowers on these small plants are often imperfect and usually do not form fruits. On the rare occasion when a single fruit has formed it has dropped when still tiny. So for me it has failed to be useful for hybridisation experiments or obtaining seeds. Very sad!!

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2022, 11:22:21 AM »
Mike,
Graft  it to the regular poncirus, it improves growth and resistance.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Walt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2022, 09:23:03 PM »
Thanks for the advice, Ilya.
Citrange, I'm hoping  to use its pollen.  It is my understanding that the FFP has only nucelar seeds.  And I am aware that no one has succeeded in transferring the fast flowering trait to any decendants other than its own nucellar seedlings.  I am not aware of any seedlings from its pollen and back-crossed again with FFP pollen.  If the trait is genetic it could show up in that generation.

vnomonee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • Zone 7a northeastern NJ
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2022, 09:50:08 PM »
2nd the advice about grafting the FFT over on something else, I grafted my FFT to standard poncirus and I have another graft on tai-tri which has already taken but not growing yet. The FFT on own roots wasn't growing at all and after checking discovered-root rot! It's now in cococoir with clean roots under a glass tank, hoping it recovers. 

mikkel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2022, 04:14:15 AM »
Ilya, is the precocious Poncirus also flowering as early as on its own roots when grafted on standard Pt? If I remember right @Till told me that grafted precocious Pt isn`t flowering for him. What is your experience with this?
Small poncirus in general are slow growing outdoors for me. Only in the greenhouse they grow sufficiently. But even my grafted precocious Pt does not bloom in the greenhouse.

Jibro

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25
    • Czech
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2022, 07:08:35 AM »
I grafted FF Trifoliate with 5 other varieties in 2019 on Poncirus rootstock, it flowered every year but always dropped fruitlet later, FF  had ~ 20 fruitlet this year but they have light color in comparison with regular trifoliate, and most of them dropped already.
I got a small seedling FF Trifoliate 9 years ago and still no fruits, actually regular trifoliate will have fruits sooner than this most likely...
Grafting on strong rootstock helps a lot but it may still take 4 - 5 years when FF will have ripped fruits.





Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2022, 01:16:31 PM »
My FFP produced one fruit its second year, then none the next 2 years.

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2022, 02:07:21 PM »
well seemsmy trifoliate is finally doing something, I see brown dots in the branch armpits, i first thought they were armored aphids but when I removed one I found very young developing leaves, now removed of course, in it.
Guess they really are late compared to other species

brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2542
    • Pennsylvania (zone 6) w/ heated greenhouse
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2022, 08:25:26 PM »
Good to hear, glad you didn't give up on it

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2022, 08:55:00 AM »
Seems I was a bit hasty with my optimism.
those brown dots have not opened up yet (and no they're definitely not bugs ;) ) but the bottom of the soil in the container is still  moist, so the plant doesn't drink because he has no foliage, but won't grow foliage despite being in a lot of sun.
Some of the lower thinner branches are getting a color between green and yellow, the thick main branches remain green.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to wait with watering until mid august with a root booster because now the soil is not dry enough yet, and I'm also afraid he won't produce any foliage this year, that it will be for next spring.

I did prune him a little, like those branches or twigs that were in the way, crossing eachother or starting to get a bit yellow in order to push him to start growing but so far no luck.

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2022, 05:08:43 PM »
Ilya, is the precocious Poncirus also flowering as early as on its own roots when grafted on standard Pt? If I remember right @Till told me that grafted precocious Pt isn`t flowering for him. What is your experience with this?
Small poncirus in general are slow growing outdoors for me. Only in the greenhouse they grow sufficiently. But even my grafted precocious Pt does not bloom in the greenhouse.
Mikkel, sorry for the late answer. In my experience on the regular PT roots it is flowering profusely, but fruiting is rather sparce. I also have this FF variety grafted on clementine. After an initial growth it shedded all the leafs and is not growing already for three years.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

vnomonee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • Zone 7a northeastern NJ
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2022, 02:23:25 PM »
If you haven't already, try taking a cutting from your main plant and rooting it as a backup or to give a chance to grow fresh roots.

This FFT cutting started growing leaves very quickly inside my fish tank where I root cuttings outside in the shade and now has roots!

The main plant still has no leaves but I took it out a of the pot a few days ago hit it with rooting hormone and stuck it back in the pot inside the fish tank, now it's finally swelling buds even without roots! go figure lol so my guess is there is something going on with your root system probably not taking up water and I would check for rot.







hardyvermont

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
    • Anderson SC z 8a
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2022, 12:47:58 AM »
FFP seem to be sensitive to conditions in a pot.  Maybe it applies to standard Poncirus as well. The ones growing in pots have very few leaves while the ones growing in the ground are fine.  Uneven/incomplete  watering or other stressful conditions could be sending  the message, 'Wait for a more favorable  environment before sending out new growth' 
Can you plant your Poncirus in the ground?

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2022, 05:23:09 AM »
I could but then I would lose even more space in my greenhouse. Outside the greenhouse is a no go because it rains way too much here, like, flooding rains sometimes that the ground is soaking wet for weeks.
I kept this one in a container in the 50% peat, 50% turface soil mix to keep it under control growth wise as I don't want a hedge or massive plant, its a bundle of 3 seedlings whose roots are permanently entangled into each other in one giant lump (trying to separate them will definitely kill them all)
so I have some more room left for a yuzu and shikuwasa but the rest is reserved for chili peppers, I'd rather not fill my entire greenhouse with citrus, especially not with one that can grow quite hedgy like this one ;)

@Millet any advice from your end? If planting in full soil is really the only solution I will but I'd rather keep it in a container. The lower part of the soil has finally dried out and I was now able to give it a small amount of water with root booster so watering conditions should stabilize. (as a sidenote, this soil mix performs so well my kaffir lime seedling has grown very hard this couple of months and needed transplanting :), drainage is excellent)

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2022, 03:30:04 PM »
Incubator01,
What we lack in order to help you are the photos of this mysterious poncirus that does not want to grow.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2022, 06:36:58 PM »
Incubator01,
What we lack in order to help you are the photos of this mysterious poncirus that does not want to grow.


There you go.

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2022, 06:56:16 PM »
Why is the container only 1/2 full of medium?  The perched water table must occupy most all of the tree's root zone area, educing much of the root's oxygen. 

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2022, 02:37:44 AM »
Why is the container only 1/2 full of medium?  The perched water table must occupy most all of the tree's root zone area, educing much of the root's oxygen.

Container is definitely full enough, the terracotta pot is the one carrying the poncirus.
It's well filled and the entire root ball is amply covered in medium...

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2022, 12:12:02 PM »
Covering the entire root ball with the medium, has nothing to do with the purchased water table.  Looking at the picture again, it certainly looks like the container is not completely filled. 

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2022, 01:57:27 PM »
Covering the entire root ball with the medium, has nothing to do with the purchased water table.  Looking at the picture again, it certainly looks like the container is not completely filled.
No, it is not, about 20% is empty. This was done to prevent backlog water at the bottom to stay there too long, yet it helped very little.

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2022, 03:55:11 PM »
Here are some more angled pictures and a close up of the branches




Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2022, 04:16:22 PM »
Every container has a layer of perched water, even containers without an actual bottom.  Roots will not grow in the perched water portion of the container.

mikkel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2022, 04:41:41 PM »
I also have pots that are not filled to the top with soil, but I have never noticed that the roots do not grow through to the bottom. On the contrary, the roots are usually most massive at the bottom.

poncirsguy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
    • Cincinnati, Ohio, USA, 6a/6b
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2022, 05:34:21 PM »
Perched water tables are a problem in winter when the tree can't use up the water fast enough.  Not a problem in summer.

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2022, 06:46:04 PM »
Have you ever pulled the tree from the container and examined the roots?

incubator01

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • Belgium, Central Europe
    • View Profile
Re: trifoliate orange not growing new foliage or anything
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2022, 02:11:50 AM »
Have you ever pulled the tree from the container and examined the roots?
Not since last year when I flushed out al the clay soil from tintori.
I'm not keen on removing it from it's soil when he's not doing well. I took a cutting of an excess branch so I'll see how that goes. Meanwhile i don't water too much.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk