Author Topic: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.  (Read 659 times)

JoeP450

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Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« on: June 23, 2022, 11:34:57 PM »
Hey Forum,

Wanted to put this out there and see what others may be experiencing, but for two seasons now I’ve been trying to cross ‘painter’ fka ‘cherilata’ with other annonas in my collection and I’ve come up completely empty handed when it’s used as pollen parent. I’ve tried painter x sugar apple, painter x geffner, painter x el bumpo, painter x dream and nothing sticks when used as pollen. I’ve found painter is receptive to sugar apple pollen and I’ve gotten a few fruits to set as female parent. Has any one else tried these crosses and achieved fruit set as pollen parent?

This is an observation, but it sent me down a rabbit hole and I came across this article : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/#!po=0.925926

Evidently, sometimes Annona hybrids can be naturally occurring Triploid or Tetraploid variants which can have an effect on their ability to reproduce. In this paper it is mentioned that:







So I’m curious if it’s possible that ‘Painter’ may be a triploid hybrid which would explain why none of the pollen is working 🤷‍♂️ I guess to confirm this would require a flow cytometer to karyotype a leaf sample 🤔.

-Joe

CTMIAMI

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2022, 07:22:58 AM »
That should be an interesting cross. UF Dr. Jonathan Crane has indicated that the pollen from Thai Lessard sugar apple pollinates all the other sugar apples and atemoyas. I have used it and is very effective. You may want to give it a try to see.
Carlos
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zone 10a Miami-Dade County

pagnr

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2022, 09:36:33 AM »
Triploids of many crops are usually seedless ( watermelons, Citrus, banana ).
In that case what is the normal seed count for the fruit of the types you are trying to cross ?
If it normally sets seeds, probably not a triploid ??
Another possibility is different chromosome numbers in the parents you want to cross.
What are the chromosome numbers of the species/varieties you want to cross,
or the chromosome numbers of the original parents of the "Painter' ?
Is Painter itself an unusual or wide cross ?
A quick search said that "Chromosome numbers of Annona are 2n = 14 and 2n = 16, except for A. glabra, which is a tetraploid species (2n = 4x = 28).
That would then be 1n = 7 X 1n= 8 for some crosses, which may never or rarely work.
Have you tried using Painter own pollen to achieve fruit set, to test your technique ?
If you can easily recognise hybrids among the seedlings, mixing pollen may get fruit set and hybridisation.
Mixing pollen is often used to overcome incompatibility in wide crosses in plant breeding.
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 09:09:25 PM by pagnr »

Galatians522

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2022, 10:29:01 PM »
I think what you are seeing is possibly a combination of two main factors. First, "Painter" likely has low pollen viability because it it a first generation interspecific hybrid. Many interspecific hybrids show low pollen viability. Second, I read a study once which indicated that temperature has a significant influence in annona pollen viability. The gist of it was that Cherimoya pollen viability drops to negligible levels when the temperature rises to a certain point, while sugarapple pollen remains viable at those same temps. My guess is that the combination of those two factors has caused your problem.

pagnr

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2022, 04:15:21 AM »
"Painter" likely has low pollen viability because it it a first generation interspecific hybrid.

I couldn't find details about this. What are the parent species ?? Thanks.

Eggo

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2022, 12:49:47 PM »
This is very interesting.  As I'm looking to grow one I hope Painter's is receptive to receiving pollen from geffner, ap, ppc, lisa, or cherimoya pollens.  I wanted to see someone out there cross it with a Lisa and get some large fruiting red skin and red flesh atemoya hybrids hybrid, ahah.

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2022, 01:12:31 PM »
There are a couple links in this thread that might be useful

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=27437.0

Simon

Galatians522

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2022, 04:09:23 PM »
"Painter" likely has low pollen viability because it it a first generation interspecific hybrid.

I couldn't find details about this. What are the parent species ?? Thanks.

A. Reticulata x A. Chreimola bred by John Painter. There is some info on the forum.

JoeP450

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2022, 10:58:26 PM »





In the article it shows a table of percentages, for example the first line FJ x TS (cherimoya x squamosa and both diploid) 35% of progeny were triploid 🤷‍♂️

I wouldn’t think the temperature has been too hot to stymie painter pollen viability as other pollens are working- geffner x Lisa , geffner x dream , dream x fernandez , geffner x ppc, sugar apple x geffner, sugar apple x Fernandez, el bumpo x lisa,  painter x sugar apple are all crosses holding at the moment, the outlier in all of this is that painter pollen is not sticking. 🤔

-Joe

Guanabanus

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2022, 10:41:37 PM »
One should list first the seed parent, which is also known as the mother tree:  in other words, the tree with the flower into which you stuff pollen.
Then X.
Then pollen parent.

Cherilata varieties are:  Annona cherimola variety X Annona reticulata variety.  If it were the other way around, it would be a Retimoya.
Har

Guanabanus

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2022, 10:50:44 PM »
I prefer to pollinate female-stage flowers on a tree when that tree's male-stage flowers are shedding pollen, or within the next couple of hours, or at the latest, when the male-stage flowers are dropping petals, which is when it would be natural for freshly exposed beetles covered with pollen to go seek out a female-stage flower to shelter in.

If you pollinate apparently female-stage flowers later than that, there may not be any remaining receptivity, especially in dry weather.
Har

Galatians522

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Re: Breeding annonas with ‘Painter’ as pollen parent.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2022, 11:07:17 PM »
One should list first the seed parent, which is also known as the mother tree:  in other words, the tree with the flower into which you stuff pollen.
Then X.
Then pollen parent.

Cherilata varieties are:  Annona cherimola variety X Annona reticulata variety.  If it were the other way around, it would be a Retimoya.

Thank you, now if only I can remember that....

 

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