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Messages - pagnr

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Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yet another soil thread
« on: March 23, 2023, 02:28:42 AM »
Is it okay to use river sand that contains bits of seashells? Or can this be too much calcium?

The rate of adding super fine Ag Lime and Dolomite Lime to Peat based and Coir based pot mix is 1kg to 2 kg of each per cubic metre, when mixing the pot mix.
This is to adjust the pH and supply Ca and Mg for a long period.
This is very fine ground powder, with a fast release rate for Calciim and Magnesium.
Intact shell and large pieces are going to be much slower acting.
Really it depends on the % of shell in the sand, the pH of the pot mix, and any other Calcium fertilisers, and the Calcium in your water supply all adding up to total Calcium.
You could probably sieve a sample of the sand and work out the % of shells.
Unless the % shells is high, it probably won't make much difference.
Do you have water snails etc in your Rivers ?
We get a few shells in our riversand, snail and mussel, but never that much.

Edit. possibly the most important factor is the % of sand you are using in the pot mix.
If you are using a large % of sand, the shells will factor more.
If you are using low % sand, ( say 2 to 5 % ),  the shells will be less in the total pot mix, and will have less effect.

Alpine strawberry is available as seed from various seed companies, including different named red varieties, and also named white and yellow types.
Indian strawberry is used as an ornamental in subtropical areas. The fruit are pea sized, but not very sweet.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Sea weed
« on: March 22, 2023, 04:08:40 PM »
Bull Kelp is a deep water cold species that contains high levels of plant growth stimulants. The live plants grow tall quickly to reach the light.
Apart from the other minerals it contains, the plant growth stimulants make it an useful "fertiliser".

As is the case with most "crimes" most people get caught because they tell someone else and word gets around.
If you keep it to yourself, who would know ?
Since the fruit is in the stores, the fruit you have could have come from there.
You can eat it or gift it, just don't say you grew it.

Most Citrus fruit of a known variety can have a level of variation when grown under different conditions.
If you grow seedlings of a patented type, they may be close enough to fit into that variation.
Without genetic testing, an enforcer may claim it is the same.

For a non GMO plant, say a patented Orange X Mandarin hybrid " OMH ",
it would probably be difficult to work out if your new seedling or re crossed plant had genes from the OMH, or genes from the parent Orange or Mandarin varieties.

There seems to be a few " Red Limes". 
Some of the Rangpur types are called Red Limes, but they seem to be pretty much Rangpur with orange or darker orange skin.
None of there are particularly red.
A lot of these are very similar, possibly some have been lost and mixed up over the years ?
Excalibur Red Lime is on this list, not strictly a Rangpur, but not red pulped either.

There are also Red Limes that have red skin and red pulp, a little more mandarin like with sour juice.
Anybody growing any of these ?
Some on the Citrusgrowersforum posted pics years ago.

How were the cocktails ?
Any different to using regular Lemon or Lime ?
I hear it has flavour elements of both.
Sounds interesting.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: soil wetting agents
« on: March 17, 2023, 02:47:02 AM »
Horticultural wetting agents when applied at correct rates should wet up pot mix, and as a surfactant, increase drainage
Something similar to a clean windscreen or kitchen sink. The water flows away after soap is applied.
Too much wetting agent can cause big problems with excess water holding.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Bordeaux mix as Fungicide
« on: March 17, 2023, 02:40:28 AM »
If copper is sprayed only 3 or 4 times a year using copper soap or copper oxide, there is no reason worry about soil accumulation. Copper is a vital nutrient to plants. It is sometimes added to fertilizer and trees that are never or rarely sprayed may suffer from copper deficiency.

Fertilisers with trace elements contain a Copper addition. That is at a rate usually sufficient for growth.
Straight NPK fertilisers probably have zero Copper.
Spraying supplies extra Copper, it may add up depending on other fertilisers or natural levels in the soil.
Copper sprays are well known, but that may not mean you can't overdo it.
If you can, spray the least effective amount, either by formulation, stickers, or spray nozzles.
Plants in containers with pot mix might be more at risk from excess copper than plants in the ground, where the soil can act as a bigger buffer.
I once collected a lot of grape vine canes for basket weaving, but borers got to them.
When I burnt them I was impressed by the beautiful blue green tint to the flames, I guess from the previous copper sprays ?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Bordeaux mix as Fungicide
« on: March 16, 2023, 02:45:29 PM »
Copper sulfate is used as an algicide and root killer. When using it as a fungicide, it is important to neutralize its acidity (3 to 4) with lime or other plant friendly pH raising agent to a pH of 7. Low pH increases absorption by plants to possibly toxic levels. I believe copper sulfate has been replaced with other copper molecules because it is inefficient and leads to excessive copper accumulation in soil, which at high toxic levels is harmful to roots, blocks iron absorption and disrupts photosynthesis. Copper soaps (Cueva) and copper oxide (Nordox) work similarly as a fungicide with less copper and less worries about pH and toxicity.

Thanks, you raise important points.
Copper Oxychloride is used heavily on grapevines around here, the Cu issues are a concern after decades of use.
As Copper Oxychloride washes off with rain, several sprays are required per season. Overhead irrigation will be the same.
If Bordeaux spray persists better, less sprays may be required per season.
That may or may not be less actual Cu Copper applied over time, depending on the chemical formulation and spray formulation.
The same for the other copper products.
I have used Copper Oxide, seemed similar holding to Oxychloride, but that is just a just an observation.
The Bourdeaux mix proportions of Copper and Lime will affect activity of the Copper, probably the persistence on the leaves and ease of spraying through nozzles.
Highly efficient low volume spray nozzles will allow good leaf coverage without using too much spray mix. ( for all  Copper sprays ).
To dilute the amount of Copper applied and increase the stick, I used Copper Oxychloride and powdered milk as a painted paste on trunks and wounds.
Somewhere between 30% Copper & 70% milk powder to 50/50 each.
As for Copper toxicity issues, those with a few trees sprayed can collect the fallen leaves and dispose or burn/ compost and spread more widely around than just under the same tree.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Curly leaf citron
« on: March 15, 2023, 06:12:06 AM »
Citrons are attractive trees with distinct fruit. Most have fairly thick rinds, but with some pulp and juice.
There is probably a reason why lemon is more widespread than Citron now, a slight bitter element in many Citron types.
There are many varieties in many cultures.
Toronji has been discussed here, fully edible type.
Personally I would say any Citron is better than Buddahs Hand, apart from its unique looks.
There are also Citron hybrids.

Here is the UCR collection, there are more types around too.
There is a lot of variation as to peel pulp ratio.
Some would be equal to Buddahs Hand apart from the fingers.
Others would be closer to Lemon.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Bordeaux mix as Fungicide
« on: March 15, 2023, 02:45:11 AM »
The advantage of Bordeaux over copper spray is that it sticks better, and doesn't wash off as quickly in rain.
That should mean less copper applied.
I would still recommend PPE, mask and gloves, eye protection,  when mixing and spraying.
Certainly have used copper and a version of Bordeaux on grapes and Citrus.
Mostly used as an early season preventative spray than are cure spray.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Fruits with Side Effects
« on: March 14, 2023, 02:34:05 PM »
Durian again. Well known for aphrodisiac properties.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Curly leaf citron
« on: March 14, 2023, 02:31:49 PM »
I know of Buddha's hand.
Not heard about Curly leaf citron (C. medica crispifolia) and bread citron?
Can you fill the gaps, sound interesting.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Fruits with Side Effects
« on: March 13, 2023, 03:24:35 PM »
Durians can cause people to wretch and become aggressive and hostile.

That is of course people who don't or won't eat them. Smell alone or even just seeing one.
People who eat them do not have the same reaction.
I was once ejected from a Chemist ( drug store ) in Cairns for carrying in a Durian from the fruit market across the road.
Lucky I didn't urgently need medication, just a frozen yoghurt soft serve cone from their $1 machine.

I don't think the Chinese mowers, brush cutters, pumps and pole saws are made to fall apart.
They are made to a price point.
Also they are made for single or few uses, some possibly not heavy long term use.
A $200 gasoline pump ( Honda copy ) is great for a one off job to drain your pool, fill a tank etc.
Cheaper than buying or hiring a pump or contractor.
Same for a long reach pole saw. The chain is fine, the motor will trim up a tree once or a few times.
Again cheaper than buying a pro brand, hiring it or getting a contractor.
If you have used other such equipment, you need to assess what you are buying.
If you have mechanical knowledge to maintain and repair them, you will get more out of them.

One aspect of grafting is the physical " carpentry" type cuts and joins between rootstock and scion to give strong connections. Fruit trees have to hold loads of fruit and stand wind movement. Any thoughts on how the cuts you make will ultimately interconnect the rootstock and scion.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 09, 2023, 03:04:09 PM »
The Nansho Dai Dai fruit I have tried are very sour, much more so than Rough Seville Sour Orange. Possibly Gou Tou comes close, but not quite.
As for the foliage there are other "Willow Leaf" Sour Oranges and also Sweet Oranges with long narrow foliage.
Willow leaf variants could be possible ?
The type in Australia probably came from UC Riverside collection.
Citrus miaray, from the Phillipines is pretty close to Citrus Taiwanica.

Not sure if the original question is any more clear now, possibly info about the fruit flavours of the variant types, and in Taiwan would help.

The Taiwanica type here is a very attractive tree, with its narrow foliage and the way the fruit hangs in it around the outside.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Calamondin as female parent
« on: March 09, 2023, 02:41:20 PM »
I planted a Sour Orange seed that I received from a Catholic Nun in a New Jersey Convent, and it fruited in its 8th year.  Now it produces more fruit then I can ever use.

It is hard to work out if that is due to luck, good management or Divine Intervention ??

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Loquat fruit fly
« on: March 08, 2023, 06:33:58 PM »
Take a minute for us in Australia.

I have Fruit Fly in my Loquat fruit.
Lorikeets eating my Loquat Fruit.
Locusts under my Loquat tree.

Is that a Haiku ?
Or a Limerick ?

All this due to changed weather patterns.
Not getting the cold winters so much any more, so fruit fly can overwinter.
Not sure where the Lorikeets came from, only turned up in the last ten years.
Not really complaining about them, beautiful birds, but they can mow thru a fruit tree.
The Locusts, didn't see so many this year, but there was an nymph alert from the Plague Locusts Commission ( a dedicated area of Govt here).
There was a Locust plague some years back, filling the sky. This year it was Dragonflies like never before.

I had one Loquat seedling come up in a shade house, it fruited and missed the fruit fly that got the outdoor trees.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 08, 2023, 03:46:47 PM »
Exceptions to Plant Breeders' Rights
In this, the following acts do not infringe upon PBR: Certain acts done for private, experimental or breeding purposes. Conditioning and use of farm saved seed. The use and sale of propagative material of the relevant variety as a food, ingredient or fuel.
Exceptions to the Rights

Monopoly rights do not extend to the propagating material of the protected plant variety in all circumstances. The following acts are not an infringement of the Plant Breeder's Right:

The use of the variety privately and for non-commercial purposes, for experimental purposes, and for breeding other plant varieties. A variety can be used for these purposes irrespective of the existence of Plant Breeder's Rights.

Similar in Europe it seems.

I guess it would be the same in USA.

The grey area might possibly more in enforcing your rights against a Corporation or University with big $$, legal Depts, expert witnesses from the Horticulture Dept, and the facilities to DNA test etc. I don't think the truth or the rules count for much in Legal cases, until the very end ( if then ) and if you can get there.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 08, 2023, 03:29:04 PM »
ls there any reason to think that the Taiwanica from Adavo and Lenzi are really Taiwanica, and not just something they grew from seed and marketed ?
They have a multitude of interesting Citrus on their websites, but some clearly don't match original descriptions from elsewhere.
I grew Taiwanica from seed, seedlings seemed highly identical with narrow leaves etc.
One occasionally fruits, but the fruit is closer to a mandarin than the original Taiwanica fruit.
The seed came from a collection, and the next door plant was a mandarin.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 08, 2023, 02:28:48 PM »
You can see how this creates a gray area, since there's no easy way to know what kind of seedling a particular seed will produce, without doing a DNA test. Mangoes and citrus produce seeds with both zygotic and nucellar embryos, and there's no reliable way to distinguish between them.

I am not seeing the grey area so much.

If you grow polyembryonic Mangoes for rootstock ( also polyembryonic Citrus ), it is reasonably easy to tell which are clones for rootstocks.
More so it is fairly easy to tell which are not a clone as they stand out from the rest.
If it really comes down to it, yes you are visually assessing the clones and making assumptions, but this is routinely done in grafting nurseries.
Some pretty close off types certainly get through and some clones are also size graded out.

The issue of propagating a protected fruit tree will probably only arise when it actually fruits.
Ornamental protected plants ie selected foliage types, dwarf hedge varieties etc etc will be breaching rules at any stage. They are protected for visual characters like foliage size colour etc.
Until the protected fruit tree actually fruits it could be difficult to distinguish. The original developer could probably do so based on Mango leaf shape and colour of growth tips etc without a DNA test.
If there is no reliable way to tell which polyembryonic seedling of variety X is a clone, then the reverse is true, there is no reliable way to tell which is not.
Although incorrect, it could be assumed that all polyembryonic seedlings are clones until proved otherwise.
The best strategy is probably quietly grow the seedlings until they fruit. By that time the developer may have move on to newer types also.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Calamondin as female parent
« on: March 08, 2023, 01:58:31 PM »
Another good point about Calamondin is that it is reasonably fast to fruit from seed, maybe 5 years, certainly not 15.
The plant is on the smaller side, so possibly the node count for flowering is lower ?
It doesn't take too many growth seasons to get to full size
Either way you won't be waiting those long years for the hybrid to flower, depending on the other parent.

I remember reading about another Phillipines variety Calamandarin.
I think both it and Calamondin were also used as rootstocks over there.
Interesting that other Calamondin hybrids are not well known or heard of, even though Calamondin / Kalamansi is cemented in Philippines culture.

The success rate of hybrids is an interesting question.
If the rate is low, you have a few much wanted plants to deal with and a bigger bunch of unwanted plants to deal with.
You may be able to use these as rootstocks for the hybrids ?
I have found it nearly essential to graft from hybrids to ensure survival long term.
(Some of my most interesting unusual off type seedlings now only survive on rootstocks, the originals often died.)
Also you can easily then multiply a few hybrid seedlings to many seperate plants on rootstock.
Grafting to other more established rootstock will also push the hybrid to flowering faster by growth alone.
After that you can either repeat the hybridisation cross, or just grow the next generation seedlings of the first hybrid to get more variable " hybrid " types.
That might be more interesting if they are zygotic, as you are reshuffling the original hybrid cross for new versions.

If the hybrid success rate is high, you have a lot of plants to deal with, pot up, possibly graft, and assess long term for worthwhile characters.
I am pretty sure professional breeders throw out a lot of interesting stuff that doesn't meet the original reason for the  hybridisation cross often based on arbitrary reasons.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus glauca
« on: March 07, 2023, 05:24:39 PM »
I think Citrus glauca grown in a big reverse L shape from Western QLD down to Broken Hill / Menindee near the Victorian NSW border.
Then across South Australia toward the Nullarbor.
Some Australian plants are Phosphorous sensitive, and Citrus are somewhat P sensitive, in that excess can cause Iron deficiency.
The area they grow in is pretty hot, possibly more arid woodland or Chenopod shrubland than desert. It would vary from summer rain in the Nth to winter rain in the south.
Winter temperatures can drop low, but overall they would be pretty mild.
Many Australian Citrus seedlings can be slow growers.
David, does your location get hot enough to match the wild conditions. Maybe a glasshouse etc might help ?

I am going to fudge the answer.
I think I am allowed to as you said " when you're hungry and you don't want processed food "  ( ie Fudge )
Coconut, so versatile many stages and uses.
Pistachio and Cashew.
Green Flageolet Beans, Black Turtle Beans,
Lime, Durian,
Chempadek, Marang, Pedali.
It may shock some on the forum, but the roasted seed of these Artocarpus are very nice too, crab like flavour.

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