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Messages - pagnr

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There is also a strong link in the mind of the Japanese to the health benefits of Okinawan fruit and vegetables.
The Okinawan population has long life expectancies and numbers of people living to 100. That is / was even higher than mainland Japan, which is also high up on the list.

Don't put too much stock in this.

Nations play games with life expectancy (there is a fair amount of social security fraud in Japan, where many centenarians died long before, but their death went unreported in order to keep government checks coming; this skews life expectancy stats), and the entanglement between socio-economic status and life expectancy is pretty profound. As a for instance, Chinese, Japanese, and Indians in the US live longer than the average back home, in part because the ones who move to the US are wealthier than average. For awhile, the longest-lived demographic on Earth was Japanese women living in the US. As always, the secret to living a long time is mostly about not dying young.

I think it is recognised that Japan has an ageing population, that is being skewed in that direction by high life expectancy, but also low birth rates and family sizes.
The trend could have major impacts, such as population decline, reduced workforce, etc.
Robotics may be needed to replace workers in various roles.
Interesting that Okinawa has both high life expectancies and higher birthrates than the rest of Japan.

As you say, these are interesting facts, but the actual truth is probably far more complex than stats can reveal.
Anyway, "67% of statistics are made up on the spot".

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Azolla as Fertilizer
« on: May 09, 2023, 05:31:30 PM »
It seems like a good technology.
N fertilisers like Urea are in shorter supply since the war in Ukraine, another factors like international shipping since covid.
This probably isn't going to change in the long term, it may relax, but demand on Gas and N fertilisers will only increase.
The invasive species tag is a consideration, but weeds are often a response to disrupted or modified environmental conditions.
Waterways are often subject to nutrient runoff pollution and changed flow conditions, weeds can be a symptom of the problems, not the real cause.
It should be possible to grow Azolla away from waterways, and also exclude wild birds that may move it to other waterways.

Azolla is a native plant to Australia.
I didn't know it was edible, and consumed by Aborigines of Australia.

This story is leading the news on my radio station in Australia, not much detail yet as you can expect, but many people here are thinking of you over there.

I don't think the foliage shows any common nutrient deficiency. I seem to remember the yellow central vein indicates root problems.
Not sure if you over did the acid, but at low low pH, the acid will attack the roots.
Don't know if what you did would drop the pH to that level, seems unlikely.
It may however encourage acid loving microbes or those that degrade organic matter via that process.
Thinking out loud, that may be the problem.
I have seen similar when unusual microbe growth takes over pot mix.
Coffee grounds are fine, but not all at once in my experience. They can lead to a microbe mass or mat, especially on the surface of pots.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Help me pick a mandarin / satsuma
« on: May 06, 2023, 09:22:47 PM »
You don't need to make a greenhouse. It can be way more temporary than that. Go to the dollar store and get brooms for the Fram. Shower curtains for the plastic. 😉

Many bed stores here in Australia sell large plastic mattress cover bags for $2, the kind the mattress is delivered / shipped in.
King and Queen are pretty big and can be cut to twice the size if one edge left.
Not UV stable but will get thru quite a few months.
I also use this as grafting tents, to keep areas dry from spring rain.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Help me pick a mandarin / satsuma
« on: May 06, 2023, 09:17:53 PM »
The idea of using irrigation to help prevent frost is that the water that is sprayed in the fields freezes and releases heat to the air as the liquid water changes to ice. The goal is to keep the air temperature in the area at 32 F by adding heat in this process.

This is workable if you have irrigation water supply tougher if you have limited supply.
If you get a run of frosts over a few days, you will need to run the overheads each night, so you may be over watering in winter when actual irrigation not required.
A temperature alarm may be required to tell you when to start the frost sprays, not just by your own judgement, you may miss an event, or run it when not quite required.
For any system using water to prevent frost damage, the mains and hoses must not freeze up, including simple systems like your garden taps and hose.
Many people drain and hang the garden hose to prevent ice formation inside the hose. Taps may need covering.

Fruits are vehicles for seed, for dispersal and protection. The seed probably don't die at minus 1 inside a fruit. Maybe the shrivelling reduces moisture and increases the % of other pulp components / anti freeze protection for the seed ??

Also the Fortunella have been around a long time, so maybe the cold tolerance evolved as things changed, but the fruit was still effective in its function.
There might be competing influences or directions on how the plants foliage and fruit adapts or reacts to the environment.


Along with this fresh fruits and vegetables. I don't think one region has particularly better ones.

Some of the Australian will fruit species are much higher in vitamin C, antioxidants, other nutrients than cultivated fruit. Also being smaller fruit, you get a bigger hit of nutrition from one or several fruit. Some can definitely give you a perk or buzz.
Some fruit or vegetable varieties do have higher nutrition levels than others of the same type.
Transport, storage and processing is going to impact those levels, so recently harvested local food is probably going to outweigh the Super Food tag to some extent.

My original thought was that the belief in the health benefits of Okinawan Shiikuwasha fruit could drive demand in Japan as much as any culinary or flavour attractions.
I don't doubt Shiikuwasha has health benefits, and as you say the benefits may not fully stack up as much in modern diets.

There is also a strong link in the mind of the Japanese to the health benefits of Okinawan fruit and vegetables.
The Okinawan population has long life expectancies and numbers of people living to 100. That is / was even higher than mainland Japan, which is also high up on the list.
That is based on diet and activity / lifestyle.
Some particular vegetables have been shown to have high health benefits, like the Okinawan sweet potato variety and Goya aka bitter melon.
Shiikuwasha has also been found to contain various health enhancing compounds, ie antioxidants, fat metabolisers, anti inflammatory, anti cancer.

2 things Iíd like to say

1) the biggest thing that people forget about with tropicals is light; plants regulate hormones based on the % they make when itís light and dark. Whereas we have more light in the summer and less in the winter in temperate areas, places near the equator are in perpetual springtime

2) rainforest soil is generally very depleted. Plants in a rainforest will not anchor themselves to the ground as much, throwing roots out into the composting debris from other trees above the topsoil instead. Thereís a lot of videos of people exploring the Amazon and being blown away by roots growing upward and into the walking paths

I think you could consider the soil to be low nutrient, but the nutrients being cycled in the leaf litter and biologically active top layer, including microbes, fungi, tiny animal life etc.
As you say, there is a concentration of feeder roots into this layer.
Also ariel roots for some species.
Many tree species are also heavily buttressed, and others must be anchored enough to stand cyclones, waterlogged soils that expand and lose structure.

Some tropical plant species are also day length sensitive, and only really go into flowering and growth at the equal periods.
We had a very mild winter here last year. Not too cold and warm at night.
A lot of Tropicals and Subtropicals really flushed out better than ever before.
Even Citrus seem to get a much better growth flush when night temps are high and closer to day temps.
There are probably systems for  Tropical plants to regulate their growth.
A lot produce fruit and seeds to correspond with the Tropical wet season,
especially those species with short viability seeds that need to hit the wet ground and start growing ASAP.
This is obviously regulated by some mechanism.
Others with hard seeds or animal dispersed seeds, can produce fruit in the drier months.

Are Temperate plants more efficient?
Not really, but they have systems to stop them wasting energy on growth that will succumb to cold.
As many may have seen, deciduous fruit trees are being thrown out of whack by climate change seasonal variably.
There is a lot of off season flowering, early flushing late winter, fruit ripening time shifts etc.
This is playing havoc with commercial growers, who can't predict when fruit will be ripe,
and varieties overlapping each other to markets causing a fruit glut, and labour shortages.

A tropical plant is usually bombarded with heavy sun, rain, and warm temperatures year round. They don't need to be such strong growers when the climate around them is steady. A deciduous tree really needs to pump hard in the growth season to maximize its size and production.

A tropical plant in a variable climate or one that is much colder than it's used to will be suffering most of the year.

Makes sense to me.

I would like to add a different take on that.
The tropics is a tough environment. Under rainforest canopy it is a bit more pleasant, if not fungal balmy.
The trees in the open and the exposed canopy foliage is getting hammered. Just like us if we spend all day in the open on the tropical beach or working in a garden.
Many tropical plant species have red pigmented growth tips, UV filters / sunscreen.
Roots are often subject to water logging and fungal attack.
Seedlings and all plants are subject to intense competition from other plants, and also foraging from insects and animals.
Many plants carry toxins to ward this foraging off, leading to our use of tropical plant medicines, drugs, insecticides.
Many tropical plants adapt readily to different environments, subtropics, temperate, indoor.
Having collected and grown many Nth Qld tropical plant seeds, I was often surprised how tough some from the true "Wet Tropics" are when grown from seed in temperate Victoria under cold pot soil winter conditions.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cempedak cold tolerance
« on: May 02, 2023, 02:56:58 AM »
It could depend on specific areas and microclimates and site aspect, possibly on the coast it is milder than in the hills.
They may even go ok a bit south in subtropical NSW.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« on: April 29, 2023, 06:37:46 PM »
The direction of a hybridisation cross affects seed and embryo size.
Finger Limes have small seeds the size of a match head.
Pummelos have large seeds the size of a kidney bean.
The seedlings that emerge from either are correspondingly sized.
The direction of the hybridisation cross,
ie which is the pollen donor and which is the recipient should affect the initial size of the hybrid embryo and seedling.
Also other cell organelle system DNA comes from the female recipient side not from the pollen donor.
I believe that is Chloroplast and Mitochondrial DNA.
The cells of the hybrids will have somewhat different cell engines, depending on the direction of the cross, and more so the more distant the ancestry of the cross.
The ancestry of Citrus can be traced by following these types of DNA, and the direction of past hybridisations, ( which pollinated the other ) can be shown.

Overall hybrids are going to be 50 / 50 combo of each parent. What actually results will vary each time as the pollen and egg DNA are variable from each parent.
Any Triploids and Tetraploids will make this more complex, as fewer sets of whole sets of genes are sent to the haploid pollen.
ie if a Triploid Lime is ABC, it could make haploid pollen of A or B or C.
A spontaneous diploid Lime seedling AB, or hybrid seedling AD would be missing many of the original Lime genes.
It may look more like an ancestor type, or a reshuffle of ancestor types.

The direction of a cross may need to be determined by the likelihood of success.
Highly nucellar types that rarely produce zygotic embryos may automatically need to be the pollen parent. ie Makrut / Kaffir Lime
Similar for closed flower self pollinating Citrons.
Mandarin types that only produce seed via pollination are a good choice for the seed parent.
The timing of flowering may also be a factor. Pollen can be stored from early flowering types , to pollinate later flowers  on other types.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Best tasting italian lemon ?
« on: April 29, 2023, 05:37:36 PM »
Yes we don't seem to have many of those Italian types in Australia.
Also wondering what the leap is from Eureka fruit wise ?
They seem a bit more Citron like to me, but don't know if that is really the case.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Capsicum tree flowers
« on: April 29, 2023, 12:04:54 PM »
I'm surprised how little discussion there is for capsium pepper plants on this forum as they are surely tropical fruit, right?

I agree, although they could be well placed in the Tropical vegetable section. Also they do have many other homes on other forums.
The low heat / no heat types of C .chinense and C . baccatum are pretty interesting tropical alternatives to capsicum.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Capsicum tree flowers
« on: April 29, 2023, 03:49:58 AM »
Any more info on this, it is different to the other "tree capsicum" Rocoto or Manzano, Capsicum baccatum.
Rocoto and manzano are C. pubescens, which has a distinctly hairy/fuzzy leaf and purple flowers. This isn't it.

Yes you are right, it is C.pubescens not baccatum I was thinking of, thanks.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yet another soil thread
« on: April 28, 2023, 05:12:50 PM »
kitty litter that is made from baked Danish clay.

That product looks good, it has a range of particle sizes and also shapes and edges to give structure to the pot mix.
Perfectly round Hydroponic clay balls are larger and all the same size and shape, so don't perform as well in my opinion.
I assume the Danish clay Cat Litter clay is fired enough in the kiln so it doesn't dissolve like other non fired clay cat litter.
Looking at the pics of your finished mix, I would say it doesn't look integrated enough.
ie the clay particles are floating in coir /pot soil more than structurally separating it.
You may need another inert smaller particle component in there for structure and drainage channels.
Anyway, that is just my opinion from looking, not on using the mix under your conditions, which are different mine.
You could possibly up the clay particles % in the lower 1/3 section of the pot to slightly increase drainage and lower the water holding/ sponge of he coir.
We don't have that type of Kitty Litter in Australia, but it seems like an ideal choice compared to perlite that floats and crumbles.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Capsicum tree flowers
« on: April 28, 2023, 08:37:12 AM »
Any more info on this, it is different to the other "tree capsicum" Rocoto or Manzano, Capsicum baccatum.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Bad Seeds Podcast
« on: April 28, 2023, 08:33:14 AM »
Can you post a link to it.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Poncirus
« on: April 26, 2023, 09:11:29 AM »
The Bitter tasting fruit could have multiple functions. It could repel some creatures that eat seed, or don't effectively disperse the seed, but attract others that disperse the seed. A lot of wild fruit are not palatable to humans, some are toxic, but consumed by other mammals and birds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« on: April 26, 2023, 09:03:36 AM »
are loquats self fertile.

Now that you mention it, one of my Loquat seedlings is under a shadehouse , not affected by fruitfly, so probably not visited by bees either.
Also quite a way from another Loquat tree.
It does throw variable leafed seedlings.
I guess it is self fertile but variable from seed.

Someone on here said their meyer lemon seeds all came out different. Some were orange colored but sour etc. Would be interesting seeds to have. I sent a pm but got no response.

It wasn't me but I did grow some Myer seed. Seedlings were fairly variable, mostly looking like Limes and Citrons or a combo. A couple have flowered, one has very dark purple growth tips. Not all survived.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« on: April 25, 2023, 09:25:53 PM »
Do you notice any difference in the Loquat seedlings leaf shape ? Some are longer, some are rounder. If you have multiple varieties they be more likely cross pollinated seedlings.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« on: April 25, 2023, 03:52:58 PM »
I have several fruiting Loquat seedlings, that came up as volunteers from one only parent tree tree. There are slight differences in the fruit of these seedlings.
Going by that, I would say yours are probably not clones, but wait till they fruit and see.  There is also slight differences in ripening times, which is helpful.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus varieties for marmalade
« on: April 25, 2023, 08:20:25 AM »
Personally I found Rough Seville, Smooth Seville and Yuzu completely edible as fruit.
Smooth Seville is possibly the most acidic, and being a large fruit, one is more than enough.
Chinotto is another "sour orange type", with more of the same distinct flavour. This translates into Cola type drinks, that matches well with Pizza.
Another Marmalade candidate ??
Nansho Dai Dai, Citrus taiwanica was far too sour acidic for me to enjoy as a fruit, so far so that I didn't bother to collect budwood from it at the first opportunity, but did so later. And since the Taiwan connection, a Manchurian candidate ??
On the other hand, I find the bitterness of Trifoliata a bridge too far to edibility.

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