Author Topic: Hardy citrus in PNW  (Read 2533 times)

gordonh1

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Hardy citrus in PNW
« on: March 31, 2023, 06:23:52 PM »
Supposing that Poncirus hybrids like the ones kumin is developing become available to hobbyists in the near future, what do you think about the prospects of finally creating edible hardy citrus that can thrive and produce a ripened crop outdoors in the Pacific Northwest?

We've recently read a lot about trials of some supposedly hardy citrus varieties outdoors in Olympia, WA. These didn't produce satisfactory results, as it seems even though these parts of Washington don't go below 5 or 10 F, still the duration of the cold is very hard on unprotected citrus and they struggled. Poncirus-like trees proven to endure zone 6 winters should be tried instead.

If successful, breeders in the PNW could continue to effort to create satisfactory citrus fruits that would have interesting culinary uses.  My question is, what would be good bets to breed with these Poncirus hybrids? For me, given I need greater cold hardiness for my area in 7b/8a just east of Seattle, it makes sense to breed with hardy varieties, not with something like a Meyer lemon, because I think getting solid hardiness, not marginal hardiness is very important, more important than immediately producing a high-quality fruit. After all, I can hardly grow anything other than Poncirus now.

Yuzu - already proven to manage well in warm microclimates in the PNW. The prospect of creating a Yuzu-like hybrid would be interesting for citrus hobbyists, but still would be likely to have niche uses such as producing fruits for Japanese restaurants.

Ichang lemon - again this was shown to be somewhat able to survive the PNW winters already, it just needs a boost from a Poncirus hybrid. The goal would be to create a lemon substitute.

What about the hardiest and earliest Mandarins, perhaps Changsha?  What I don't know is the complexities of the genetics and other factors such as the degree of precocity and percentage of zygotic seedlings, which would be helpful to know in the process of selecting parents.

Dunstan citrumelo? This already has some Poncirus in it, so it seems like a hardier version of this one could be interesting.

Sudachi? Producing lime-like fruits with good aromatics and flavors sounds wonderful.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 06:31:17 PM by gordonh1 »

caladri

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2023, 06:33:16 PM »
I'm not sure I agree with the assessment of the primary climate issues in western Washington, but something I'd want to throw into the mix is to consider that regional specialties and novelties are a more useful niche to target than being able to produce "a lemon". Lemons are cheap and abundant, so why would somebody want to buy a local lemon at a price approaching what it would cost to produce it? (I watched some locally-grown meyer lemons grown in a greenhouse languish for a while at Root Cellar in Victoria before disappearing suddenly late last year.) It seems to me that the approach taken with regional varieties of citrus across Japan and with things like pawpaws in the US South is more viable. Produce something distinctive and interesting that local people want to grow, develop recipes around, and consume. Honestly, I don't see why a high-producing yuzu couldn't become the subject of regional interest. But you've got to grow something distinctive or novel, because there just aren't enough growing degree days to justify trying to grow something similar to what grows better and easier in hundreds of places around the world.

Unless, of course, you want to chase after that prepper market, but people who are willing to eat freeze-dried shoe leather when the SHTF can probably manage to choke down Poncirus+ or similar as-is.

(Also, I feel like sudachi is way overrepresented in these conversations just because One Green World used to have some resellers who pushed it as suitable for the PNW. Sudachi just seems less interesting and less useful than lots of things that are a closer match for our climate.)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 06:35:56 PM by caladri »

gordonh1

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2023, 08:21:44 PM »
I think both have merit. A reliably hardy lemon tree would be sold to a lot of gardeners and homeowners. But I like your idea of developing regional flavors.

I'm thinking about two projects, one to produce sour fruit that will be used for juice and/or zest, but without worrying about whether it passes as a lemon or lime. Instead, introducing the characteristics of juiciness and pleasant oils in the rind, regardless of appearance or peelability or ability to separate into sections. So then the selections from this breeding program could all be various different flavors and colors, but all juicy and aromatic.  Having a distinctive aroma and flavor is a plus, but if you get a lemon or lime, then go with it as a hardy lemon or lime. I think these ideally are sized like lemons and limes, since there are already juicers in people's homes sized for them.

Another project would be a peelable fruit that's juicy and sweet enough to eat by hand, and breaks into sections. It doesn't have to be an orange or look like an orange, but the goal would be to have those physical characteristics, with an interesting and appealing taste. I personally enjoy a peelable grapefruit that can be sectioned and eaten like an orange. The hint of bittnerness, along with sour and sweet, are very pleasant, and aromatic oils add to the experience, too.

A third project could be for zesting and aroma, the way a Yuzu is used but being open to a variety of different flavors and aromas.

So given that, any suggestions for parents to use for those projects? I would think Ichang lemon or Sudachi for the first, a  citrandrin or mandarin like Changsha for the second, and Yuzu for the third.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 09:09:29 PM by gordonh1 »

Pandan

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2023, 10:42:06 PM »
I think leaning into the unique and different flavors and other features would be an excellent idea for cold hardy citrus

I think meiwa and fingerlimes (not hardy ik) are underutilized for example

Walt

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2023, 02:32:48 AM »
I commented some time ago that an F1 hybrid of finger lime x Ponciris+ might have a market.  I've been thinking more about it lately.

kumin

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2023, 04:37:28 AM »
 Poncirus hybrids decoupled from the bitter resins associated with Poncirus may themselves serve as hardy parents in further Citrus breeding efforts.
It may take 2 generations of extreme selections to recapture desirable Winter hardiness. In the early stages of breeding low seediness isn't particularly desirable, as it limits the pool of available seedlings for further selection.
The concept of developing,or discovering unique new flavors and niches for their use is interesting and worthy of pursuit.

drymifolia

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2023, 01:21:01 PM »
It's somewhat of a dead-end breeding-wise since it's a chimera rather than a hybrid, but I'm hoping to eventually trial the Prague citsuma here in Seattle if any of my grafts take. I'll grow it in my greenhouse this year and graft it to trifoliate rootstock next spring for planting out and outdoor trials. I'm less than a mile from Puget Sound in zone 8b, but in a frost pocket with poor cold air drainage, so a pretty warm microclimate but not the warmest possible around here.

If I end up with enough material to graft a few extras, I'll be happy to share with anyone in the region who also wants to trial it.

Pandan

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2023, 08:02:34 PM »
I commented some time ago that an F1 hybrid of finger lime x Ponciris+ might have a market.  I've been thinking more about it lately.

I think so too

I also think desert limes (citrus glauca) are another candidate. The fact that they're also xerophytes and supposedly salt tolerant.  Aesthetically I really like them too: some of the trees can be haggard and leggy but when they fill out they're beautiful shaggy, willow like appearance.

pagnr

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2023, 02:28:49 AM »
Swingle Citrumelo is fairly acceptable flavour wise. Possibly the expectation of grapefruit allows for some of the bitter flavours. (They are not excessive, but slightly different to grapefruit, and more of an aftertaste than in grapefruit.)

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2023, 05:35:24 PM »
I do not think the PNW is a good place to try to breed new citrus varieties, in my opinion from what I've seen. The duration of warmth is simply not long enough. The plants, if they do survive, do not really grow very fast, and are even more reluctant to fruit.

Maybe if you are near the Portland area, and in a suburban neighborhood, it could be possible but challenging. But once you go 2 hours north to Olympia, I know it becomes much more difficult.
Yet I am aware of a Vietnamese couple, almost an hour north from Olympia in Federal Way, who have been able to grow a lemon and orange tree in the ground outside, grown from seed from ordinary store-bought fruits, although they have a large covering over it with Christmas lights, and their very suburban neighborhood gets more moderating temperature effect from the Puget Sound than Olympia does.

I'm not saying it's impossible but I think it would be much more difficult and take much more time. I am thinking it may be better to breed the new crosses somewhere else further south and then trial them in the PNW.

caladri

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2023, 06:01:13 PM »
I do not think the PNW is a good place to try to breed new citrus varieties, in my opinion from what I've seen. The duration of warmth is simply not long enough. The plants, if they do survive, do not really grow very fast, and are even more reluctant to fruit.

Maybe if you are near the Portland area, and in a suburban neighborhood, it could be possible but challenging. But once you go 2 hours north to Olympia, I know it becomes much more difficult.
Yet I am aware of a Vietnamese couple, almost an hour north from Olympia in Federal Way, who have been able to grow a lemon and orange tree in the ground outside, grown from seed from ordinary store-bought fruits, although they have a large covering over it with Christmas lights, and their very suburban neighborhood gets more moderating temperature effect from the Puget Sound than Olympia does.

I'm not saying it's impossible but I think it would be much more difficult and take much more time. I am thinking it may be better to breed the new crosses somewhere else further south and then trial them in the PNW.

Greenhouses exist for getting things to maturity more quickly, and for speeding propagation, etc. Yes, contract growing somewhere else would be easier and faster in some ways, but there are practical and cultural reasons not to want to have to transplant a bunch of mature trees grown elsewhere to see what does well in-situ. I've had some seedlings which grow surprisingly well and vigorously in the PNW (admittedly we're a bit less cold than Olympia, but also a bit cooler in summer), but it definitely requires firing a lot of arrows, as it were. I have one Poncirus trifoliata which happily put on a bit more than 2 meters of vertical growth this summer. (Staking has been a challenge!)

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2023, 10:33:15 PM »
I can quickly sum up my experiences in Olympia. Yuzu initially grows well and survives, but can sometimes decline after 2 or 3 years and finally die, apparently not having the energy to recover after another winter. But Yuzu can seem to grow well if planted in a very optimal and protected warmer spot in more urban surroundings. The decline seems to begin after some moderate damage from a colder than normal winter (which comes along about every 3 or 4 years).

Keraji was not able to make it for me, even though seeming to survive well through one winter, even though it was protected and planted in an optimal spot. Bloomsweet was not able to make it. Sudachi was not able to make it, even though after one year it seemed nearly as cold tolerant as Yuzu, but it was planted further away from the house in a spot that might have gotten colder.

So far a Dunstan citrumelo bush is doing great.
An Ichang lemon appears to be surviving outside, in a protected spot, but I am not sure for how long, whether it will be able to recover after the next winter and not decline. It seems to suffer some obvious damage and die-back of some of its branches in winter but has recovered well with vigorous leaf growth.
A Changsha mandarin, in a protected spot, appears to be doing great and is very vigorous. 

Kumquat seedlings that had grown about 10 inches high were not able to survive.

Two Ichang papeda plants have both died and did not seem to be able to survive the cold. They were not on rootstock and were planted futher away in a spot that may have gotten a little colder.

One Ichangquat seedling survived through one winter and appeared to be doing great but died after the next winter. Another Ichangquat seedling was killed down to only one inch above the ground and the plant was not able to send out any leaf growth for the year after that. I expect it might just slowly decline and finally die.

Ten Degree Tangerine (a hybrid of Yuzu and Clementine) lost all its leaves and was not able to regrow them the following year, although the plant seemed to send out just a few buds of leaf growth. It slowly declined and finally died 2 years later.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 10:53:40 PM by SoCal2warm »

caladri

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2023, 12:43:46 AM »
I can't imagine sacrificing so many individual and hard-won plants! Approaches like kumin's, of firing a lot of arrows and hoping for a few good survivors, are much less despair-inducing for me. I'd be really sad if all of my oto died. An early frost in the greenhouse killing all of my bael was bad enough!

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2023, 01:42:21 AM »
I can't imagine sacrificing so many individual and hard-won plants! Approaches like kumin's, of firing a lot of arrows and hoping for a few good survivors, are much less despair-inducing for me.
Yes, but you will never know until you try. So much information can be gained from these trials and mistakes, which is why I share these individual observations.

I do not wish to discourage anyone too much, however, since if a variety seems like it almost survived, it might end up surviving for you in the same climate zone designation. Especially if you can give it more extra care than I did.

I do not feel too bad about the losses though, since if these varieties could not survive zone 8a (and the warmer part of zone 8a at that, on the side closer to 8b ) then they are sort of worthless to me. Might still be valuable to those who are solidly in zone 8b or 9a.

The keraji did put out blossoms outside after surviving the winter but never fruited, before eventually dying. Actually there was one fruit druplet but it was very small green and undeveloped, hard to really call it a fruit. It never had a chance to develop and eventually just fell off. Not so uncommon when a plant does not have enough energy for fruit production. I think it was because the plant was very young and the temperatures were still cold (not yet consistently warm enough for citrus to grow well).

Ilya11

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2023, 04:54:40 AM »
I wonder if you tried to grow pure  poncirus seedlings as a control for your general agricultural capacities?
Best regards,
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SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2023, 06:35:17 AM »
I wonder if you tried to grow pure  poncirus seedlings as a control for your general agricultural capacities?
I have Flying Dragon and another Flying Dragon that appears to be growing up from rootstock. They both seem to be able to survive fine, but interestingly do not seem to be as vigorous growing as Dunstan citrumelo or Changsha. The Flying Dragon also appears to be deciduous and loses its leaves, whereas the other varieties only suffer leaf death if it is a colder winter than usual and more often (or often even then) not complete loss of all past leaves.
I believe the Flying Dragon from the rootstock originally came from Jim VH (another member in this forum) and is the one that doesn't have the normal awful poncirus flavor inside the fruits.

The plants may be only a little taller than 12 to 14 inches and grow slow. They seem like they will survive and slowly continue to grow over the years, but I think the other varieties will outpace them (if they can always survive).

gordonh1

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2023, 01:03:21 PM »
SoCal, I seem to recall that the trees you planted out were unprotected and were also quite small.  I had read about the practice of growing the trees to a somewhat larger size before planting them out, so that the trunk itself is less likely to be compromised by freezing. Also, instead of leaving trees exposed directly to the cold, smaller trees could be protected.

I'm mostly planning to use a medium-sized greenhouse for Citrus in the PNW. Potted dwarf Citrus could survive the winter protected in the greenhouse for the winter months, but be brought outside after the danger of frost has passed and until November or so. But Kumin's experiments in PA inspired me to think about breeding Poncirus-derived trees that could winter outdoors.  Perhaps a greenhouse could be an important component in being able to develop numbers of trees that could be planted out in trial plantings. This is a direct analogy to growing trees farther south and then trialing them in more harsh climates.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2023, 01:40:01 PM »
SoCal, I seem to recall that the trees you planted out were unprotected and were also quite small. I had read about the practice of growing the trees to a somewhat larger size before planting them out, so that the trunk itself is less likely to be compromised by freezing. Also, instead of leaving trees exposed directly to the cold, smaller trees could be protected.
Most of the plants were about 14 inches tall, almost as wide as tall. I did try to protect most of them a little bit, with a large bottle of water under them right next to the trunk to help resist freezing, and covered by a large paper grocery bag during the coldest nights.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2023, 02:09:01 PM »
I'm also growing some other things besides citrus, so maybe should share that because it could help be used to make a comparison and know what can survive in this climate.
I'm growing two rarer hardier (Russian) varieties of pomegranates, Parfianka and Crimson Sky. The Parfianka is right up against a southern wall and has grown to become a huge bush. It has sent out blossoms, and even two small developing fruits. Crimson Sky is supposed to be even hardier but has grown slower, but it is a little further away from the home and planted in a spot with harder shallow soil.
Hardy gardenias, Crown Jewel and Summer Snow. Both have bigger more complex flowers than the typical hardy gardenia varieties. Crown Jewel can definitely do well here, does not lose its leaves in the winter. One bush has grown big and sent out abundant blossoms during the warmest part of summer. They smell a little more like wild strawberry and tea than regular gardenias. I actually prefer the fragrance of regular gardenias, which are more grapefruit and lemony, in my personal opinion. Another Crown Jewel Bush has not grown very much but has survived, it gets more sun exposure which is apparently not good since the summers in this climate can get quite dry and hot during the day, and gardenias really prefer humidity.
For Summer Snow, it's too early to say whether it can survive the winters. I planted two in colder spots and during colder winters they seemed to be killed back close to the ground, but barely managed to recover and started sending up a little bit of new growth. I will be observing another that is planted in a more protected sheltered spot not far from the wall close to some other bushes.
Musa basjoo (ornamental bananas) are usually killed down to the ground and then regrow, though some very mild winters the pseudostem (big trunk) can survive, but not the leaves. The winter always comes before the skinny small fruits have any time to develop, and they might only produce fruit some years. 
Fragrant osmanthus can grow, but immature plants do not seem to do well planted in the open with too much sun and exposure to wind. They need a little bit of shade and moisture to handle the dry summers, despite being kept well watered.
I saw a hardy variety of rosemary flowering in late January one year, so apparenty it does not get too cold.
Camellias can easily survive and grow to become gigantic bushes after 40 years, in some cases taller than homes. In almost half the years, you can see red flowers on big cammellia bushes blooming in late December and then in the later part of February.
A tropical variety of camellia, Nitidissima, was unable to survive, but a hybrid of it, Ki no Senritsu has managed to survive, further out away from the house, in a partially sheltered spot beneath some other plants. I think this would probably do better in 8b, but is just barely managing to survive in my zone 8a climate. It was able to grow a few leaves this year but not too many.
Cork oak does not lose its leaves over the winter here.   

As you can see, I've been testing the boundaries of what sorts of subtropical things can grow here.

Hardy fuschia flower varieties can grow outside here, although regular fuschias do not survive the winters. I have seen fuschias blooming in the middle of January in Seattle (permanently planted in the ground) not far from the water of the lake.
Double Otto is the variety with the biggest more complex flowers that can survive here, similar in appearance to regular fuschias.

The leaves on bamboo remain green most winters, and the plants keep their leaves, though can look a little bit trashed by the end of winter. The leaf color changes to a paler less lively color hue, but the leaves can recover the next year, especially if they are deeper into the thicket of bamboo.

I haven't tried it but my online research tells me that tree ferns can survive but only if the top crowns of the ferns are protected and wrapped in a burlap sack for insulation. Especially if the tree fern is Dicksonia antarctica, but possibly even regular Australian tree ferns too. The fronds are cut back at the start of winter so the crowns can be wrapped. The lower part of the trunk does not need to be wrapped.   

You can use these as indicators and try to compare to your climate.

I have had no luck getting chrysanthemums to permanently survive in the ground here, even hardier hybrids that supposedly were designed to be able to survive in southern Minnesota.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 02:47:36 PM by SoCal2warm »

bussone

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2023, 05:42:12 PM »
I wonder if you tried to grow pure  poncirus seedlings as a control for your general agricultural capacities?
I have Flying Dragon and another Flying Dragon that appears to be growing up from rootstock. They both seem to be able to survive fine, but interestingly do not seem to be as vigorous growing as Dunstan citrumelo or Changsha. The Flying Dragon also appears to be deciduous and loses its leaves, whereas the other varieties only suffer leaf death if it is a colder winter than usual and more often (or often even then) not complete loss of all past leaves.
I believe the Flying Dragon from the rootstock originally came from Jim VH (another member in this forum) and is the one that doesn't have the normal awful poncirus flavor inside the fruits.

Not surprising. Flying Dragon is dwarfed relative to straight species poncirus, and poncirus grows somewhat slowly for a citrus as-is.

Basically - Flying Dragon just is slow-growing by nature. (Perhaps more accurately, it's contorted, so it's growth is not straight-line) Straight poncirus gets taller faster.

bussone

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2023, 05:45:16 PM »
I have had no luck getting chrysanthemums to permanently survive in the ground here, even hardier hybrids that supposedly were designed to be able to survive in southern Minnesota.

The issue there and with some of your citrus may not be the amount of cold you get, but the lack of heat.

Southern Minnesota gets fairly hot summers. Many prairie plants are fine with deep cold, so long as they also get a hot summer. But they can't handle mild cold + mild heat. Other needs dry summers, and others still can handle summer heat so long as they are kept moist. It can get complicated.

Poncirus aside, what other citrus varieties were native to mountains?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2023, 09:04:57 PM »
Poncirus aside, what other citrus varieties were native to mountains?
I do not really know but I don't think any citrus species are native to mountains. Poncirus trifoliata has been growing wild in the mountains of North Carolina though.

I think Poncirus polyandra might almost grow at what would be considered mountain elevation, though it is not very high. It rarely gets very hot there but also rarely goes below freezing, except at higher mountain elevations. Fumin county, Yunnan, China, where average daily highs do not rise above 68°F for half of the year.
This source says P. polyandra grows in forests on mountain slopes; at an elevation of around 2400 meters, southeast Yunnan (Funing).
Q. Ding et al., Acta Bot. Yunnan. 6: 292. 1984, not Citrus polyandra Tanaka (1928).
www.efloras.org , Rutacae
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=107164

Even Khasi papeda only grows in the "hills" and not mountains, and the temperatures never get very cold in the Meghalaya part of India)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2023, 01:39:37 PM by SoCal2warm »

BorisR

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2023, 03:43:25 PM »
"It's good where we're not." You can paraphrase this saying for plants as well. While Russians are looking for American varieties, such as “ninth ball” and the like, Americans are getting Russian varieties like “Parfianka” from somewhere.

caladri

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2023, 09:36:19 PM »
"It's good where we're not." You can paraphrase this saying for plants as well. While Russians are looking for American varieties, such as “ninth ball” and the like, Americans are getting Russian varieties like “Parfianka” from somewhere.

Too right! People who live in the tropics fight to grow grapes and apples. People are very silly creatures sometimes :)

poncirsguy

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2023, 10:42:56 PM »
I live in Cincinnati and I can't grow grapes either