Author Topic: Breeding citrus what affects things  (Read 1167 times)

Rispa

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Breeding citrus what affects things
« on: April 23, 2023, 01:30:47 PM »
When breeding citrus what affects the offspring you get? Does it nature a difference which is the mother or father plant? Like if you cross a kumquat with a mandarin would it take more characteristics from the mother or father?

I Royale want a mandarin with a kumquat peel. Yum yum

hornad

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2023, 03:12:01 PM »
Calamansi is a hybrid between mandarin orange and kumquat and their peel is sweet but the fruit is sour like a kumquat

A mandarinquat is a hybrid between a between a mandarin orange and a kumquat and they also have sour flesh and sweet peels
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 03:21:07 PM by hornad »

Rispa

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 03:39:21 AM »
Unfortunately I probably can't get either of those right now. I'm planning to play around with growing some from seed.

drymifolia

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2023, 05:51:48 PM »
Unfortunately I probably can't get either of those right now. I'm planning to play around with growing some from seed.

I'll check the grocery store when I go later today, they had mandarinquat last week. I could mail you some seeds if you want. They don't taste very good to me. Peel isn't as good as a good kumquat and the flesh isn't really better tasting either (though it is more juicy). PM if you're interested and I'll let you know if they have them.

pagnr

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2023, 06:37:46 PM »
The direction of a hybridisation cross affects seed and embryo size.
Finger Limes have small seeds the size of a match head.
Pummelos have large seeds the size of a kidney bean.
The seedlings that emerge from either are correspondingly sized.
The direction of the hybridisation cross,
ie which is the pollen donor and which is the recipient should affect the initial size of the hybrid embryo and seedling.
Also other cell organelle system DNA comes from the female recipient side not from the pollen donor.
I believe that is Chloroplast and Mitochondrial DNA.
The cells of the hybrids will have somewhat different cell engines, depending on the direction of the cross, and more so the more distant the ancestry of the cross.
The ancestry of Citrus can be traced by following these types of DNA, and the direction of past hybridisations, ( which pollinated the other ) can be shown.

Overall hybrids are going to be 50 / 50 combo of each parent. What actually results will vary each time as the pollen and egg DNA are variable from each parent.
Any Triploids and Tetraploids will make this more complex, as fewer sets of whole sets of genes are sent to the haploid pollen.
ie if a Triploid Lime is ABC, it could make haploid pollen of A or B or C.
A spontaneous diploid Lime seedling AB, or hybrid seedling AD would be missing many of the original Lime genes.
It may look more like an ancestor type, or a reshuffle of ancestor types.

The direction of a cross may need to be determined by the likelihood of success.
Highly nucellar types that rarely produce zygotic embryos may automatically need to be the pollen parent. ie Makrut / Kaffir Lime
Similar for closed flower self pollinating Citrons.
Mandarin types that only produce seed via pollination are a good choice for the seed parent.
The timing of flowering may also be a factor. Pollen can be stored from early flowering types , to pollinate later flowers  on other types.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 08:19:52 AM by pagnr »

Rispa

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2023, 03:27:00 AM »
Thanks so much for the in depth answer

Walt

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2023, 01:18:27 PM »
Pagnr gave a lot of useful information.  I want to add a bit more.
He gave an example of a triploid hybrid with A, B, and C sets of chromosomes.  And he treated them as if each set stayed together.  In fact each set has 9 chromosomes  A1, A2, A3, etc.  B1, B2, B3, etc.  and the same for set C.
A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes are similar having evolved from an origional ancester X with chromosomes X1, X2, X3, etc.
A1, B1, and C1 are still enough alike that one can replace another and still be viable.  But they will be different enough that some, about 1/9, of the traits, will be from the the species that donated that chromosome.  So any pollen grain should have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 8, and 9 but not always from the same species.  One might be A1 B2 C3 A4, B5 C6, A7, A8, B9. o any other combination having one chromosome of each number.  A few of the combinations might not be able to survive, but most will.  A few will be what you had hoped for, or at least a step in the direction.  Most are rejects.

Now another complicacation.  A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes don't stay as they were when you started.  During the formation of pollen and egg cells crossover happen.  I don't know how often they happen in citrus but the crops I have worked usually have about 2 per chromosome per generation.

chromosome from one species has genes
ABCDEFGHIJKL

chromosome from a different species has genes
abcdefghijkl

after a crossover you have
ABCDefghIJKL
abcdEFGHijkl

This exchange usually happens on each chromosome pair per generation, in a different location each time.  So the deck slowly gets shuffled/

Walt

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2023, 02:12:37 PM »
In what order do you make your crosses?  Often the plants decide for you.   These are in bloom so you make the cross both directions hoping to get enough seeds to find a seedling or seedlings that are a step toward your goal.  But if you are blessed with many flowers you will prefer some crosses over others.

I want a seedless winter hardy finger lime.  I start with.Ponciris+. Kishu Seedless mandarin, and a finger lime.

Pt+is winter hardy and the fruit, I'm told, is like a very sour orange'  It has zygotic seeds.

Kishu Seedless has a dominant gene for seedless.  The origional Kishu is said to give nucelar seeds.  It can only be used as a pollen parent.  Half of its seedling will be seedless and may be highly nucelar.

Finger lime has the interesting fruit though I have read that the flavor is not the best.  It gives zygotic seedlings but seeds are small perhaps giving weaker seedlings.

So if I was in zone 8, or even zone 7, I would prefer to do this.   Finger lime X (Pt+ X Kishu Seedless).
But being in zone 6 where more hardiness will be needed, I'll prefer Pt+ X (Finger lime X Kishu Seedless), or
( Pt+ X  finger lime) X (Pt+ X Kishu Seedless}'  Either way I'll have a population that is 1/2 Pt+, 1/4 finger lime, 1/4 Kishu.  but in this second way I'd not be using finger lime as a seed psrent.   Selections from this population could be crossed with selections from an F2 population from the (Pt+ X finger lime).  So this new population would be 1/2 Pt+. 3/8 finger lime , 1/8 Kishu Seedless.
 


betsyjolas

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2023, 04:42:26 AM »
The direction of a hybridisation cross affects seed and embryo size.
Finger Limes have small seeds the size of a match head.
Pummelos have large seeds the size of a kidney bean.
The seedlings that emerge from either are correspondingly sized.
The direction of the hybridisation cross,
ie which is the pollen donor and which is the recipient should affect the initial size of the hybrid embryo and seedling.
Also other cell organelle system DNA comes from the female recipient side not from the pollen donor.
I believe that is Chloroplast and Mitochondrial DNA.
The cells of the hybrids will have somewhat different cell engines, depending on the direction of the cross, and more so the more distant the ancestry of the cross.
The ancestry of Citrus can be traced by following these types of DNA, and the direction of past hybridisations, ( which pollinated the other ) can be shown.

Overall hybrids are going to be 50 / 50 combo of each parent. What actually results will vary each time as the pollen and egg DNA are variable from each parent.
Any Triploids and Tetraploids will make this more complex, as fewer sets of whole sets of genes are sent to the haploid pollen.
ie if a Triploid Lime is ABC, it could make haploid pollen of A or B or C.
A spontaneous diploid Lime seedling AB, or hybrid seedling AD would be missing many of the original Lime genes.
It may look more like an ancestor type, or a reshuffle of ancestor types.
wordle
The direction of a cross may need to be determined by the likelihood of success.
Highly nucellar types that rarely produce zygotic embryos may automatically need to be the pollen parent. ie Makrut / Kaffir Lime
Similar for closed flower self pollinating Citrons.
Mandarin types that only produce seed via pollination are a good choice for the seed parent.
The timing of flowering may also be a factor. Pollen can be stored from early flowering types , to pollinate later flowers  on other types.

It was what I needed, thank you very much!

pagnr

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Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2023, 04:19:26 PM »
It was what I needed, thank you very much!

Thanks for that betsyjolas.

Please also see Walts expansion of the info in his post above.
Pagnr gave a lot of useful information.  I want to add a bit more.
He gave an example of a triploid hybrid with A, B, and C sets of chromosomes.  And he treated them as if each set stayed together.  In fact each set has 9 chromosomes  A1, A2, A3, etc.  B1, B2, B3, etc.  and the same for set C.
A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes are similar having evolved from an origional ancester X with chromosomes X1, X2, X3, etc.
A1, B1, and C1 are still enough alike that one can replace another and still be viable.  But they will be different enough that some, about 1/9, of the traits, will be from the the species that donated that chromosome.  So any pollen grain should have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 8, and 9 but not always from the same species.  One might be A1 B2 C3 A4, B5 C6, A7, A8, B9. o any other combination having one chromosome of each number.  A few of the combinations might not be able to survive, but most will.  A few will be what you had hoped for, or at least a step in the direction.  Most are rejects.

Now another complicacation.  A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes don't stay as they were when you started.  During the formation of pollen and egg cells crossover happen.  I don't know how often they happen in citrus but the crops I have worked usually have about 2 per chromosome per generation.

chromosome from one species has genes
ABCDEFGHIJKL

chromosome from a different species has genes
abcdefghijkl

after a crossover you have
ABCDefghIJKL
abcdEFGHijkl

This exchange usually happens on each chromosome pair per generation, in a different location each time.  So the deck slowly gets shuffled/



 

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