The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Citrus General Discussion => Topic started by: Millet on October 26, 2014, 04:03:53 PM
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I picked and ate the first Dekopon my young tree has produced. It was very juicy, but not sweet in the least. I realize that young citrus trees just beginning to produce their first crop normally do not generate great tasting fruit. In the crops to come the fruit from this tree will get better and better. - Millet
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Millet, congratulations ! At least you have a producing Dekopon ! You are way ahead of most of us. My first fruit Kishu are excellent this year with about 30 fruit on a tree probably three years old . It has leaped to #1 on my list. My first year first fruit on a three year old Xie Shan is very disappointing but I knew not to expect much. i have had probably three crops of Owari and they are still barely edible. Nothing special at all yet but again not a big surprise. I have other Owari at least five years old and still little to zero fruit but last winter was tough even though the leaves stayed on fine. I keep thinking 'wait until next year'. Tom
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Tom, Dr.Manners once told us of mandarins that he picked from a 25 year old Mandarin tree (I forgot the actual variety). He said that old tree produced some of the best citrus he ever had. My oldest tree is a 10-ft. high and 12 ft. wide Cara Cara pink navel orange. I guess it is now 7 or eight years old, and is producing fruit that is quite good. - Millet
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Best citrus fruit I have ever had came from an Owari satsuma tree planted in 1989. Haven't tasted sweeter.
I budded trees from that one and the fruit was average. Just goes to show what tree age and sandy soil
can do for fruit quality.
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The reason that a citrus tree growing on sandy soil generally produce excellent tasting fruit, is due to the amount of extra water that must be applied to a tree growing in sandy soil. It is a tree's transpiration system that carries the fertilizers, proteins, sugars and the other hundreds of organic chemicals that produce healthy trees high quality fruit production. - Millet
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Growing my grafted Washington Navel on some unknown rootstock for about 6 years now (HD purchased)
in SUPER SANDY SOIL out here in the Palm Springs desert and giving it all kind of nutrition throughout the year has produced the most watered-down oranges. Sweet but like if you squeezed the juice out and then added an equal amount of water. I'm ready to ax the tree and get a Dekopon that I've heard so much about. Where does one buy the big D these days???
thanks, Gary
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Gary, you could have a problem finding a Dekopon tree, because you live in California. You will have to locate an instate supplier, as no out of state supplier can legally ship a citrus tree into California. Presently I don't know of an Californiae nursery that sells Dekopon. If you ever find one plwAE put their name on this board as many people in California are wanting a Dekopon tree. - Millet
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Millet, Your dekopan was probably not mature? They mature around Feb-March. I have some that are starting to yellow and tasted one and notice the same you describe. They have a while to go still.
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Thanks Ryan, your probably right. - Millet
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I'm starting to get a little color in sats but most still very green. Kishu is coloring great and flavor is really good. Xie Shan showing good color and taste is ok. Meyers coloring just a little. Variegated lemon looks cute. Low last night was supposed to be 33'F. It wasn't supposed to be that low for long.
Best satsuma I ever had was a Brown Select from John Neighbors and the next year the same tree had fruit that was just ordinary. They are probably 12 year old trees outside with a high tunnel for winter. I guess like grapes, some years are just better than others. Tom
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Gary, you could have a problem finding a Dekopon tree, because you live in California. You will have to locate an instate supplier, as no out of state supplier can legally ship a citrus tree into California. Presently I don't know of an Californiae nursery that sells Dekopon. If you ever find one plwAE put their name on this board as many people in California are wanting a Dekopon tree. - Millet
I attended the grower tasting/tour at Lindcove last Friday and I asked Tracy Kahn if UCR had acquired another line of Dekopon to release to the public. She said they had, though it might not be the same exact strain as what's marketed as Sumo. She said it is expected to be released from quarantine in 2015 and budwood will first be distributed to nurseries only. Looks like we may finally get our chance in a few years!
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Today I was transplanting a two year old Dekopon tree from a container into the ground. In the process I broke a small branch that had a full sized Dekopon fruit, but still green. I peeled it and ate. Even at this stage the fruit was very good tasting. By heating the soil and lighting the tree from sunset to 10:00 PM, the tree should produce 5 growth flushes per year. So in two more years I couldd well have a good sized tree capable of producing a good crop. - Millet
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For an interesting but brief interview with the Japanese citrus grower who got the Dekopan going, you can look at the excellent 28 minute long video presentation entitled "Japanology- Satsuma Mandarins", which is on youtube. He said that the trees that he experimented with made much better/sweeter fruit when he found out which moisture supply worked best over a several-year period of experimenting with watering. The similar video on persimmons is also very good.
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Here is a very interesting article that was printed in the Los Angles Times about the much sought after citrus variety Dekopon written by David Karp.
http://www.latimes.com/food/la-fo-dekopon-20110217-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/food/la-fo-dekopon-20110217-story.html)
Millet
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Great article Millet. Thanks ! Why do they say Dekopon gets sweeter when stored after harvest but other citrus is not supposed to get sweeter or better with storage ? Tom
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Citrus do not increase in sugar content after harvest, Dekopon included. However, the acid content of citrus begins to degrade after harvest, especially in higher temperatures. As the acid content decreases the fruit tends to taste sweeter, not because it has more sugar, but because it contains less acid (vitamin C) - Millet
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Is the same true for lemons and Satsumas ? Thanks. Tom
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Here is my first Dekopon fruit and the tree is flowering again, so I hope it will set more. Do I have to wait till the skin gets all yellow?
(http://i.imgur.com/rroAczG.jpg?1)
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They topically are ready late season. meaning Feb-March, you are still several months away before ripeness.
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In Japan, after the fruit are picked, they are placed in a dark room for 20 to 40 days to enhance their sweetness (actually to reduce the acid content). - Millet
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RyanL, Millet, thank you. :)
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I am in NJ and my Dekapon fruit on two different trees started turning yellow about 2 weeks ago. This is their first year to fruit. It would seem they may be ripe way earlier than February. All of my trees all had a huge flush in early January last year so maybe that is why they are ripening so soon?
Cory
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Cory, your Dekopon will probably be completely yellow around the middle of November. If you leave in hanging on the tree for a couple months it will be the middle of January. Then 20 to 40 days in a dark room to reduce the acid content it will be ready in the middle of February. That is if you want the maximum of sweetness in taste. Also Dekopon trees are grown different than other citrus, they are normally pruned much the same way peaches are pruned. This is to provide the maximum of light throughout the tree which also promotes sweetness. The brix level of the fruit can reach 18.. - Millet
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Thanks Millet. I will leave them on the tree then and do as you say. I was surprised they were turning yellow already and would not have realized it would still take that much more time to fully ripen. Glad I asked! When are cocktail grapefruit/pumello ripe? My first 6 fruits, first year, 4 year old container tree. I knocked two off by mistake when bringing them in. They didn't seem quite ripe to me yet, but they have colored for a while now. Not bitter, but not acid either.
Cory
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No matter what you do, a young 4 year old container grapefruit tree will not produce all that quality of a fruit. It is just too young. However, with grapefruit, most authorities say to leave the fruit hang on the tree until March for the best tasting fruit. The commercial grapefruit industry picks their fruit as soon as possible to get the fruit on the market so they can receive payment. If they would delay the harvest until March, many more people would like grapefruit than do now. - Millet
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No matter what you do, a young 4 year old container grapefruit tree will not produce all that quality of a fruit. It is just too young. However, with grapefruit, most authorities say to leave the fruit hang on the tree until March for the best tasting fruit. The commercial grapefruit industry picks their fruit as soon as possible to get the fruit on the market so they can receive payment. If they would delay the harvest until March, many more people would like grapefruit than do now. - Millet
Not all grapefruit is handled that way. Different types/varieties ripen at different times. The reds are later in the season, or into mid to late spring of the following year while the whites are earlier in the season (weather plays a bigger role in quality with any citrus, you need to have the cold spells to sweeten them up and improve the quality ). I have never seen any benefit of leaving some of the early season whites hang on the tree for months. No matter how long you let a white stay on the tree, it will never have the characteristics of a good red. Then there is the matter of personal preference, some like whites better and some like reds better.
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No matter what you do, a young 4 year old container grapefruit tree will not produce all that quality of a fruit. It is just too young. However, with grapefruit, most authorities say to leave the fruit hang on the tree until March for the best tasting fruit. The commercial grapefruit industry picks their fruit as soon as possible to get the fruit on the market so they can receive payment. If they would delay the harvest until March, many more people would like grapefruit than do now. - Millet
Not all grapefruit is handled that way. Different types/varieties ripen at different times. The reds are later in the season, or into mid to late spring of the following year while the whites are earlier in the season (weather plays a bigger role in quality with any citrus, you need to have the cold spells to sweeten them up and improve the quality ). I have never seen any benefit of leaving some of the early season whites hang on the tree for months. No matter how long you let a white stay on the tree, it will never have the characteristics of a good red. Then there is the matter of personal preference, some like whites better and some like reds better.
My Rio Red are pretty tasty in early April though they taste pretty good as early as late February. I've taken the last fruit off the tree as late as early June and it was still good.
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I remember when Dr. Malcolm Manners wrote that the very best tasting grapefruit he ever ate was a Marsh, which is a white grapefruit variety, that was left hanging on the tree until the month of March. I have a young in ground Marsh grapefruit tree, and I'm waiting for the day that I can try the same experience that Dr. Manners had. - Millet
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Thank you Millet and the others who replied to my post. I will leave the fruit on longer.
Cory
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Does the comment Rob made about all citrus needing cold spells to sweeten them up apply to grapefruit? I thought it was high heat units that gave them their sweetness.
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The reason that Florida and South Texas grapefruit taste so good and sweet is due to the heat. Further, due to the high humidity of both areas, the night time temperature remains high providing the fruit with a 24 hour day of warm temperatures. This type of climate, along with leaving the fruit on the tree until full maturuity is what makes grapefruit sweet. - Millet
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I am going to experiment with growing grapefruit here in northern California. Our climate is certainly not the ideal for growing grapefruit. Despite our long warm summers, the humidity is low and the nights are cool. I am currently producing a grafted Duncan grapefruit tree. This is the original Florida grapefruit and by many reports is one not the most delicious. It is also evidently high in sugar. My plan is to leave the grapefruits hanging on the tree (once the tree is relatively mature) for as long as possible. I have heard reports of people letting them hang on the tree for 2 or more years. I am very interested to see what I get. It still probably won't be as good as Texas and Florida grapefruit, but experimenting is fun.
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You can buy trees here, but only in Florida...
https://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/JFE/product/shiranui-tangerine-tree/ (https://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/JFE/product/shiranui-tangerine-tree/)
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All citrus respond to heat, but grapefruit especially so. Environmental factors affect the composition and quality of grapefruit. The importance of temperature to grapefruit growth has been strikingly demonstrated. Grapefruit is outstanding in the difference in time required for the fruit to mature under different climatic conditions. Flower buds on the trees come to full bloom and set fruit at approximately the same time at Riverside California and Brawley, California, but about 15 months are required to mature the fruit at Riverside and only about 7 to 8 months at Brawley. The shortening of the time required at Brawley is chiefly owing to the excessive heat units, which accelerate the reactions of growth and elaboration of food materials.
Millet
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All citrus respond to heat, but grapefruit especially so. Environmental factors greatly affect the composition and quality of grapefruit. The importance of temperature to grapefruit growth has been strikingly demonstrated. Grapefruit is outstanding in the difference in time required for the fruit to mature under different climatic conditions. Flower buds on the grapefruit trees come to full bloom and then set fruit at approximately the same time at Riverside California as trees growing in the Imperial Valley of southern at Brawley, California, but about 15 months are required to mature the fruit at Riverside and only about 7 to 8 months at Brawley. The shortening of the time required at Brawley is chiefly owing to the excessive heat units, which accelerate the reactions of growth and elaboration of food materials.
Millet
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No matter what you do, a young 4 year old container grapefruit tree will not produce all that quality of a fruit. It is just too young. However, with grapefruit, most authorities say to leave the fruit hang on the tree until March for the best tasting fruit. The commercial grapefruit industry picks their fruit as soon as possible to get the fruit on the market so they can receive payment. If they would delay the harvest until March, many more people would like grapefruit than do now. - Millet
Not all grapefruit is handled that way. Different types/varieties ripen at different times. The reds are later in the season, or into mid to late spring of the following year while the whites are earlier in the season (weather plays a bigger role in quality with any citrus, you need to have the cold spells to sweeten them up and improve the quality ). I have never seen any benefit of leaving some of the early season whites hang on the tree for months. No matter how long you let a white stay on the tree, it will never have the characteristics of a good red. Then there is the matter of personal preference, some like whites better and some like reds better.
Best grapefruit I ever ate was a Brandenton, Florida duncan white picked in April at Mixon fruit stand. Yumm, way better than a red IMHO. I like the pinks as well.
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I am going to experiment with growing grapefruit here in northern California. Our climate is certainly not the ideal for growing grapefruit. Despite our long warm summers, the humidity is low and the nights are cool. I am currently producing a grafted Duncan grapefruit tree. This is the original Florida grapefruit and by many reports is one not the most delicious. It is also evidently high in sugar. My plan is to leave the grapefruits hanging on the tree (once the tree is relatively mature) for as long as possible. I have heard reports of people letting them hang on the tree for 2 or more years. I am very interested to see what I get. It still probably won't be as good as Texas and Florida grapefruit, but experimenting is fun.
I believe that experiment has been done already. You will get sour grapefruit. Better to grow oroblanco or melogold in northern CA.
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I am going to experiment with growing grapefruit here in northern California. Our climate is certainly not the ideal for growing grapefruit. Despite our long warm summers, the humidity is low and the nights are cool. I am currently producing a grafted Duncan grapefruit tree. This is the original Florida grapefruit and by many reports is one not the most delicious. It is also evidently high in sugar. My plan is to leave the grapefruits hanging on the tree (once the tree is relatively mature) for as long as possible. I have heard reports of people letting them hang on the tree for 2 or more years. I am very interested to see what I get. It still probably won't be as good as Texas and Florida grapefruit, but experimenting is fun.
I believe that experiment has been done already. You will get sour grapefruit. Better to grow oroblanco or melogold in northern CA.
I knew there would be someone who dismissed the experiment. I truly doubt that anyone has taken a relatively mature Duncan grapefruit in Northern California and left the fruit to hang on the tree for 2+ years. I already grow Oroblanco and Melogold. They are OK. Nothing to write home about. Without experimenting and pushing the envelope we never expand our knowledge of what is possible.
-Brett