Author Topic: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers  (Read 12255 times)

Millet

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No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« on: March 19, 2015, 12:02:53 PM »
California Citrus Mutual estimates nearly 50,000 acres of citrus trees will receive no federal or state water allocation this year. State Sens. Andy Vidak and Jean Fuller are here with me watching trees get bulldozed,” said Citrus Mutual's  Steve Nelsen. “This is not just an issue for the citrus industry, or even agriculture. It is far greater. The federal government will be the cause of lost jobs and economic recession in the Central Valley if water is not made available.”

The federal Bureau of Reclamation and National Marine Fisheries Service are challenging agriculture’s ability to produce fresh fruits and vegetables, as Nelsen sees it. “There is water available that could by law be delivered to agricultural users,” according to his statement. “But these agencies have mandated that available water remain in storage. Their calculations come after the March storms, which we know added 1.2 million acre feet to storage.”

Millet

nullzero

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 12:20:42 PM »
There really is no water to go around (despite what CCM says), those who can pay can drill deep and pump out the remaining groundwater (until restrictions go into place on this). If the drought continues I expect the central valley will revert back to a desert fast. Perhaps they can get creative and use more drip irrigation and replace crops with more drought tolerant like Figs, Pomegranate, and Opuntia ficus-indica instead of citrus.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

jcaldeira

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 12:40:36 PM »
If we can build a pipeline to carry dirty tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico, it seems we should be able to pipe more water to our friends in California.
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nullzero

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 01:26:59 PM »
If we can build a pipeline to carry dirty tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico, it seems we should be able to pipe more water to our friends in California.

There is no profit in that, so its not going to happen. Pipelines are done by big multinational corporations which are able to pay bribes and funnel money to politicians and government officials to get things done and receive specialized treatment and tax breaks. While needed infrastructure for the common citizen is largely ignored or caught up in red tape. I guess the money is better spent blowing up people and infrastructure in other countries  :o.

Also I don't think Oregon and Washington would appreciate CA diverting massive quantities of water from their rivers and lakes.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:29:13 PM by nullzero »
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Radoslav

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 04:11:41 PM »
Maybe the water used to shale gas extraction is now missing in ecosystem of US continent.

US may inspire by Gaddafi´s Great Man-Made River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River






jcaldeira

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 06:40:04 PM »
US may inspire by Gaddafi´s Great Man-Made River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River

I wasn't aware of the Libyan pipeline.  Thanks for sharing.

A pipeline from Lake Superior (surface elevation 180 meters) to San Diego, California, would be approximately 3,200 kilometers, not much longer than the Libyan pipeline.
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nullzero

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 06:50:37 PM »
US may inspire by Gaddafi´s Great Man-Made River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River

I wasn't aware of the Libyan pipeline.  Thanks for sharing.

A pipeline from Lake Superior (surface elevation 180 meters) to San Diego, California, would be approximately 3,200 kilometers, not much longer than the Libyan pipeline.

Unrealistic you have to go through the various large mountain ranges with elevation climbs over 8,000 ft. Libya was easy it was flat desert sloping toward the ocean. Oregon and Washington state is possible due to less distance and elevation climb needed for the pipeline.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

jcaldeira

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 07:22:01 PM »
US may inspire by Gaddafi´s Great Man-Made River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River

I wasn't aware of the Libyan pipeline.  Thanks for sharing.

A pipeline from Lake Superior (surface elevation 180 meters) to San Diego, California, would be approximately 3,200 kilometers, not much longer than the Libyan pipeline.

Unrealistic you have to go through the various large mountain ranges with elevation climbs over 8,000 ft. Libya was easy it was flat desert sloping toward the ocean. Oregon and Washington state is possible due to less distance and elevation climb needed for the pipeline.

Of course it wouldn't be easy, but neither was the Great Wall of China or the Panama Canal. 

Today's desalinization technology is energy inefficient, and water conservation and reuse can only go so far.   

We also need to look more at large-scale snow-melt capture from the Rockies.   
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fruitlovers

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 07:26:58 PM »
You could also fly water on 747's from Hawaii to California.  :o :o Just ain't gonna happen. Oil is piped from long distances because it's considered a very valuable commodity. Compare price of gallon for water and for oil. Common sense to most. If people started dying of thirst in California then maybe water prices would go up and a water pipeline would be more possible? Permanent water projects like canals and enlarging of reservoirs is a lot more likely than any pipeline. Desalinization plants would also be more likely to happen than pipelines. Plenty of coastline in California. Desalinazation technology improving rapidly. Already in wide use in Israel.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 07:32:37 PM by fruitlovers »
Oscar

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 07:30:19 PM »
There just isn't enough water, as nullzero said. No amount of money can make it rain and it's pointless to build more dams when the extant reservoirs can't even be filled. Deep pocket almond grower/exporters will "drill, baby, drill" until the already dangerously depleted aquifers are dry. 2000 new building permits issued for an area of Sacramento; 2000 new homes planned northeast of Modesto. Build it now, pump it now - grab what you can with no thought to the future. I'm not a "green" but Calfornia is killing itself. Maybe all of these people will go elsewhere when the valley starts looking like the Mojave.

gary

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 07:39:06 PM »
There just isn't enough water, as nullzero said. No amount of money can make it rain and it's pointless to build more dams when the extant reservoirs can't even be filled. Deep pocket almond grower/exporters will "drill, baby, drill" until the already dangerously depleted aquifers are dry. 2000 new building permits issued for an area of Sacramento; 2000 new homes planned northeast of Modesto. Build it now, pump it now - grab what you can with no thought to the future. I'm not a "green" but Calfornia is killing itself. Maybe all of these people will go elsewhere when the valley starts looking like the Mojave.

gary

One good year of rain can fill all those reservoirs. If the holding capacity is enlarged it does solve future problems, but not current problem. It's like have a water catchment tank at your house. If you only store 50 gallons that's not going to help as much as storing 10,000 gallons. Yes this doesn't create rain, it only prepares you for when the rain comes, rather than letting it all wash back into the ocean. Should've been done long time ago, but California has no population growth plan. The existing reservoirs are for populations that existed 50 years ago, not now. For now California will have to beg, borrow, or steal water from other states.
Oscar

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 09:33:29 PM »
I understand that, Oscar. The thing is, I'm afraid this is the "new normal". Not only are we having the drought, we're having warmer weather than in the previous drought. Hopefully, we will return to "old normal" patterns and those new reservoirs could be filled. Getting them past the environmentalists will be a major hurdle. Also, having more capacity will just make more growth acceptable.

gary

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 11:14:21 PM »
Water in California will be getting more expensive, no doubt about that.  It may put some agriculture out of business unless they get major concessions.

Don't dismiss a long-range aqueduct pipeline so quickly.  California already has an aqueduct that spans from near San Francisco to San Diego. it's 1,100 km long and has a lift of 610 meters over mountains.  If climate change makes drought a regular occurrence, I expect we'll see longer and longer aqueduct systems.



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fruitlovers

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 12:00:54 AM »
I understand that, Oscar. The thing is, I'm afraid this is the "new normal". Not only are we having the drought, we're having warmer weather than in the previous drought. Hopefully, we will return to "old normal" patterns and those new reservoirs could be filled. Getting them past the environmentalists will be a major hurdle. Also, having more capacity will just make more growth acceptable.

gary

Pretty much anything in California makes more growth acceptable. Really there needs to be a growth plan and some population growth limits. But i don't suppose that will happen any time soon. It would be just to wise.
About piping water, here even on small island one side (Kona) often is experiencing severe drought and water restrictions while the other side (Hilo) has extreme downpours. There is always talk of piping water to Kona, but it never happens. And that is just for a stretch less than 100 miles.
Oscar

nullzero

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 01:19:30 AM »
Water in California will be getting more expensive, no doubt about that.  It may put some agriculture out of business unless they get major concessions.

Don't dismiss a long-range aqueduct pipeline so quickly.  California already has an aqueduct that spans from near San Francisco to San Diego. it's 1,100 km long and has a lift of 610 meters over mountains.  If climate change makes drought a regular occurrence, I expect we'll see longer and longer aqueduct systems.

2000ft climb is a lot less then 8000ft compared with getting the water from the great lakes... Thats why I said if they were going to do it extend it from the north near Redding and go into Oregon and Washington state.
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Waiting

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2015, 03:20:57 AM »
Is it possible to farm citrus without irrigation?

I have two Owari mandarin trees that receive only what falls from the sky. They are 40 years old on whatever full-sized rootstock was popular at the time. I also have a grapefruit tree that  is from the same time period and also receives no additional water. One of the Owaris has gone alternate year bearing but the other one and the grapefriut produce huge amounts of fruit every year, even during these drought years.

gary

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2015, 04:58:49 AM »
If we can build a pipeline to carry dirty tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico, it seems we should be able to pipe more water to our friends in California.

There is no profit in that, so its not going to happen. Pipelines are done by big multinational corporations which are able to pay bribes and funnel money to politicians and government officials to get things done and receive specialized treatment and tax breaks. While needed infrastructure for the common citizen is largely ignored or caught up in red tape. I guess the money is better spent blowing up people and infrastructure in other countries  :o.

Also I don't think Oregon and Washington would appreciate CA diverting massive quantities of water from their rivers and lakes.

Pretty much the only part of Ayn Rand's Philosophy I agree with relates precisely to this point; governments create monopolies.

Mike T

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2015, 05:39:58 AM »
There were orange and mandarin orchards for decades at Kuranda near me that were not irrigated.Trees sometimes struggled when the dry season was prolonged and were menaced by fungal diseases in the rainy season..They finished up about 20 years ago.The area is about 400m altitude and gets a feather over 2000mm  (80inches) so California being cooler but much drier is implausible without irrigation.

fruitlovers

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2015, 06:03:39 AM »
There were orange and mandarin orchards for decades at Kuranda near me that were not irrigated.Trees sometimes struggled when the dry season was prolonged and were menaced by fungal diseases in the rainy season..They finished up about 20 years ago.The area is about 400m altitude and gets a feather over 2000mm  (80inches) so California being cooler but much drier is implausible without irrigation.

Much of Southern California is technically desert, getting 5 inches of rain a year or less. We get that much rain here in one day's downpour.
Oscar

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2015, 06:18:53 AM »
Gary, sounds like your trees are on rough lemon, which is very drought hardy, but very sensitive to Phytophthora. One of the shortest lived rootstocks on a commercial basis and fruit quality is sub par by most measures.

KarenRei

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2015, 10:37:14 AM »
If we can build a pipeline to carry dirty tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico, it seems we should be able to pipe more water to our friends in California.

Oil is orders of magnitude more valuable per liter shipped than water.

There's no shortage of water in California. There's a major shortage of *cheap* water. Farmers in the past bought it for cents per cubic meter. Imagine if you could buy gasoline for that price! Even "expensive" desalinated water is usually around $0,50 USD per cubic meter.

That said, there is a natural water "pipeline" out there, and that's the Colorado River. I imagine if California got desperate enough they could offer to pay the upper basin states out the nose for a higher share of water than is allocated to them in the Colorado River Compact.

But really, they need to get over the concept of growing water-intensive crops in a borderline desert.  :Ţ

« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 10:38:51 AM by KarenRei »
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jcaldeira

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2015, 03:24:19 PM »
If we can build a pipeline to carry dirty tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico, it seems we should be able to pipe more water to our friends in California.

Oil is orders of magnitude more valuable per liter shipped than water.

Oil costs more than water, but lack of water would shut down California's just as fast as lack of oil.  It's not an oil or water choice though.

Whether from the Colorado River, Lake Superior, or elsewhere, more long distance aqueducts are probably going to be necessity.
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Waiting

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2015, 07:15:32 PM »
Gary, sounds like your trees are on rough lemon, which is very drought hardy, but very sensitive to Phytophthora. One of the shortest lived rootstocks on a commercial basis and fruit quality is sub par by most measures.

Without DNA analysis there's just no way to know. The Owaris were intended for a commercial orchard north of Fresno. The farmer lost funding and the trees were sold.

My trees have no disease issues. The only insects are mealy bugs. They receive no pesticides and no fertilization. I can't imagine anything more trouble free.

Regarding quality, they are the best I've ever eaten and anyone we've given them to says the same and always wants more.

I was thinking of irrigation-free orchards north of the Tehachapi Mountains. Average rainfall for Modesto, where I live, is 13.2". I don't know where that 5" number came from but cities south of the Tehachapi Mountains generally receive as much as I, if not more (http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/california/united-states/3174). It's kind of a moot point since what's grown most now in SoCal is houses.

If I were to come into a huge windfall of money I'd try it just to see if it could be done. Of course, with the coming of huánglóngběng it would be a pointless exercise.

gary

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2015, 07:53:21 PM »
Well if you swear on the quality, then it can only be sour orange from that era. Also highly drought tolerant.
It's making a comeback in Florida as some growers say less effected by greening.  They seem to be discounting the high risk of CTV.

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Re: No Water This Year Available For California Citrus Growers
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2015, 04:55:23 PM »
I've worried about the affect on the California citrus industry.  I can see some real problems if the drought continues.

 

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