Unusual Flower @ my Cherimoya - 5 or 6 Petals, Really!

[fruitlovers]

ohiojay, did you know about the female stage pollen of cherimoya? I'm sure there are slides online somewhere. Basically you pick the flower in the female stage and scrape the pollen off and it lasts up to 72 hours. Male stage pollen only lasts 24 hours.

Female pollen is an oxymoron. Pollen is equivalent of sperm in animals, so females cannot produce pollen. It's only at the male stage that the pollen is produced.

[fruitlovers]

Well, pros need to answer this simple question then.

We get female stage
then it turns into male stage and we collect pollen
we use this pollen to pollinate other female stage flowers

Now, all the flowers that I have pollinated in female stage has opened up a day later and appeared as make stage and I have been able to extract pollen from previously pollinated flowers, and those flowers I believe have continued onto putting fruits as well.

So the question is, is this ok? Once you pollinate female stage flower, does the flower not advance to male stage? Is so why do I see pollen? Is that pollen colllected from pollinated female flower not viable?

Too much confusion.

If you are seeing pollen, then you are seeing the male stage of the flower, so it must be advancing to male stage. I would think that pollen is still viable, but i'm sure Har knows a lot more and will chime in?

[behlgarden]

I know Pollen is shed during male stage, but question is a fully pollinated female flower anthers would also shed pollen as it matures. only difference is if its not pollinated it wont take.  Is the pollen collected from pollinated flower viable? that is mystery.

[fruitlovers]

I know Pollen is shed during male stage, but question is a fully pollinated female flower anthers would also shed pollen as it matures. only difference is if its not pollinated it wont take.  Is the pollen collected from pollinated flower viable? that is mystery.

I don't know. I bet Har knows. My guess would be that the pollen would still be viable.

[fyliu]

Behl, you're doing it right. Pollen from a pollinated flower is still viable.

The only reason to go through the trouble of collecting female stage pollen is if you don't find a male. Also female stage pollen lasts 3 days instead of 1. I don't know why that is, but say you have 2 females (A and B) on day 0. You take A pollen on day 0 and B pollen on day 1, B pollen will be good until day 2 while A pollen will be good until day 3.

Maybe pollen ages faster on the flower.

There was a trial conducted by a grower who discovered this if you can find the slides online.

[behlgarden]

Reporting that I found a 6 petal flower too, and another 5 petal. also happy to report that all unusual petal flowers were successfully pollinated, now turning into fruits.  I am hitting about 10-15 females daily, go figure!

[Tim]

Oh slick...does it look to be a normal shaped fruit?

[behlgarden]

its too early to tell as they are half the size of a penny right now, green, I hope to fruit over 200 fruits this season. I have some single branches that has clusters of 4 to 6 fruits, leaves of this plant in some cases are well over 12 inches across, I think the organic compost, red wigglers, and all good fertilizers is making this one healthy tree.

[fyliu]

It's really hot right now. Give all your plants plenty of water.

[Guanabanus]

People who remove flowers to collect pollen from the next day, do so because they have other plans for the evening, or because they don't have permission to work overtime, or because they can't stand mosquitoes, or because they are afraid of the dark, or ....

I gather pollen when it is shed naturally and use it immediately.  If it is dark out, I wear a hiker's headlamp.

Female flower parts that are "pregnant" because they have been pollinated are not able to suppress the male parts from going ahead and being male, as they always do.  The female parts are normally no longer receptive by the time the male parts in the same flower are ready to do their thing, so there would be no point to impeding the shedding of pollen.

The only time one needs to avoid using pollen from an already pollinated flower is when one is doing planned hybridization and therefore needs to be sure of knowing who the daddy is.  So one avoids having any of the previous night's pollen mixed in with the fresh pollen one is using to breed with.

If one is only interesting in achieving fruit set, without a care about the seeds, then certainly, go ahead and use pollen from previously pollinated flowers!

[Guanabanus]

I have seen four-petaled cherimoya and ilama flowers, but I don't recall fivers.  I have seen Mountain-Soursop with over a dozen tightly cupped inner petals, instead of the normal three.

[Jack, Nipomo]

I suspect that most of us, like me, simply collect the anthers in the male stage.  The anthers of course contain the pollen. I just apply the loose anthers and pollen to the female stage.  Could it be possible that these anthers at the top of the flower cone could be scraped off when the flower is in the female stage and ripen pollen in a few hours and therefore add another opportunity for pollen collection?  There is that stage in the flower when it appears that the anthers are ready to shed, but don't.  Waiting a few hours they become loose and ready to collect.  This would require destruction of the flower, but perhaps extend the time period where pollen (anthers) could be collected. In our climate I can collect pollen (anthers) and pollinate females at the same time. 

[fyliu]

I suspect that most of us, like me, simply collect the anthers in the male stage.  The anthers of course contain the pollen. I just apply the loose anthers and pollen to the female stage.  Could it be possible that these anthers at the top of the flower cone could be scraped off when the flower is in the female stage and ripen pollen in a few hours and therefore add another opportunity for pollen collection?  There is that stage in the flower when it appears that the anthers are ready to shed, but don't.  Waiting a few hours they become loose and ready to collect.  This would require destruction of the flower, but perhaps extend the time period where pollen (anthers) could be collected. In our climate I can collect pollen (anthers) and pollinate females at the same time.

That's what was tested to work for commercial growers in California and Australia. It's called female stage pollen. The reason to use it is to extend the fruiting season. At both ends of the season the flowers are fewer, making "normal" manual pollination more difficult to achieve.

But one detail I'm not clear about is when the pollen become effective. Can a flower self-pollinate if there's only one around? A side effect that was discovered is that female stage pollen remain viable longer than pollen properly matured.

I'm not sure if I said it clearly this time, since there were confusion earlier on about this idea. Maybe I should have put it in a new thread.

[Jack, Nipomo]

I got what you were saying.  It is also a means to extend the season in Spain with commercial growers.  With sufficient pollen workers can spend the day pollinating female flowers and enhance the crop.  Apparently early recovered female stage pollen (not female pollen, is still viable and will do its deed as it is supposed to do.  Also, such recovered female stage pollen can be kept at -80 C or colder and still retain over 50% viability for months.  Apparently the 300 or so carpels in a cherimoya only require about 10% pollination to create a commercial fruit.  The anthers collected in the female stage flower will continue to ripen enabling more pollen availability during times when the males are not shedding.  Female receptive flowers can therefore be pollinated, enhancing the crop quantity.  Worth a try!

[Guanabanus]

Someone once gave me a film jar in which anthers had been collected, shaken, dumped out, and the remaining pollen grains, stuck to the sides, with a few flakes of calcium chloride desiccant added, refrigerated.  I used the pollen after a week, and it was viable.  I did not have occasion to repeat the procedure.