Author Topic: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial  (Read 60444 times)

usirius

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Never give up!
    • Southern Germany, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2019, 04:13:22 PM »
Ilya11,

thank you for the picture of your crossing. I will show you a picture of mine shich has more narrow leafes. The young leafes seem to grow to 4 similar leafes but during growing the relation between the three leafes and the stalk gets different.

Sylvain,

thank you for clarifiying - sorry this has been my error.
Nevertheless I believe that yours seem to be the larger foliated phenotype?
Can you please measure on some typical leafes the length of  the middle leave and let me know?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:50:14 AM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Sylvain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2019, 08:52:04 AM »
Here it is:



Leave 8.7 cm, middle leaflet 6.3 cm, petiole 2.4 cm, lateral leaflets 2.6 cm and 4 cm.

usirius

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Never give up!
    • Southern Germany, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #127 on: May 02, 2019, 01:03:11 AM »
Ilya11,

enclosed two pictures of young leafes and one picture of one adulte leafe of my crossing -  most other adulte leafes are lost during winter:







sylvain,

thank you for picture, it seem so that you have the same large leafed P.P. I also have - you can see this on the following two pictures of my plant





« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:51:22 AM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #128 on: May 02, 2019, 04:16:41 AM »
Usirius,
Your hybrid has very few  features from papeda. Petiole and the proportion of adult leaflets are very close to those of poncirus. What clone of C.ichangensis have you used?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

usirius

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Never give up!
    • Southern Germany, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2019, 03:05:01 AM »
Ilya11, I took the pollen from a Citrus ichangensis which I purchased ad nursery Otto Eisenhut in San Nazzaro (Suisse) many years ago. Otto Eisenhut propagated C. ichangensis from a ichangensis-tree of Dr. E. Frey. This tree of Dr. E. Frey survived planted decades of years in plein air without any protection in a garden in Ronco s/A close to Lago Magiore. So it is not a special cultivar but one which has shown a good frost resistance all the yeras in - I would say USDA zone is between 8 and 9.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 03:08:14 AM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2019, 04:31:07 AM »
Thank you Usirius,
Eisenhut currently has three clones of C.ichangensis: Clone "Klock" (Z269), IVIA (Z189 ) and Z83 which is marked as exceptionally frost resistant.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

usirius

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Never give up!
    • Southern Germany, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2019, 10:35:29 AM »
Ilya11,
thank you for update concerning Eisnhut portfolio. I bought my C. ichangensis for about 25 years ago, in this time Eisenhut only had the one C. ichangensis variety from which I took the pollen for sale. I think that this one is the Z83. Klock did in this time no material exchange with EIsenhut. And the IVA Clone found its way to Einsehut earliest I would say 10-15  years ago.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:38:56 AM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2019, 11:43:47 AM »
I bought my first C.ichangensis from B.Voss in 2001, it was listed as N2 (resistant to -12C) and originated from Florida arboretum. I believe O.Eisenhut and B.Voss exchanged many varieties at this time. I lost this plant after a warm winter followed by late spring frost of -9C.
Do you still have your original  Eisenhut ichangensis?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #133 on: May 04, 2019, 07:56:09 PM »
Here are current photos of the F2 segentranges. A few are from plants potted in March, but most are from plants still in ground at present. Except for the small seedlings, the remainder have survived -11.8 deg F. in Jan/Feb of 2019. The shorter plants had some natural protection provided by snowfall.

A vigorous, deciduous specimen. No protection provided at any time. Conestoga # 011


A unique plant that had zero dieback, not especially vigorous (small leaves). This plant was clearly taller than the snow cover.


2 fairly vigorous specimens.


The large pots are F2 hybrids potted in March, the remainder are 2019 seedlings of several cold hardy selections.


A vigorous F2 unprotected specimen.


2 additional specimens.


There are quite a few more small surviving plants that are less photogenic. Within a month I hope to begin grafting some of most mature specimens unto P. trifoliata.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 09:27:09 AM by kumin »

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2019, 04:15:07 AM »
Congratulations!
Actually you have been lucky to have such extreme winter for a rapid selection.
I am rather upset with the absence of real cold this season, too many seedlings are still alive ;D
Best regards,
                       Ilya

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #135 on: May 05, 2019, 07:02:13 AM »
It's interesting you mention having too many survivors due to inadequate cold to eliminate marginally hardy plants. As I explain my goals to people in my community, the majority tell me "what a shame so few survived" not realizing the objective is to eliminate all but the very hardiest specimens. Some get the long version, and others get the short version, in the explanation of the details.

I have a family member that lives 200 miles south of me in zone 7b. I may trial clones of some of the better F2 specimens to see the results in that area.

The winter has indeed been severe, affecting local Kaki persimmons severely, delaying leaf emergence, and, or actual killing established trees.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 07:58:34 PM by kumin »

usirius

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Never give up!
    • Southern Germany, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #136 on: May 05, 2019, 10:54:34 AM »
kimon,

thank you for sharing the result of the nseleciton. I agree fully to Ilya11 and you that main objective it to select only those specimens who survive properly also in very stron winter seasons. In the past I selected specimens of Citrange and Segentranges surviving some yeras with less to no damage and than they died in an more extreme winter - at -17°C or at .20°C which U already had here. And some died after surviving such an extreme winter after being awake by a slight night freeze....... So all thos specimens are worthless and as more early as one can find out this one is able to concentrate the work on few seedlings and onbe also has again room for testing new prduced hybrids. I can confirm your experience - that in winters which damaged my  kakis also many citrus selections of mine has been damaged, so I think that Kaki (also Trachycarpus, Olea, Pistacia....) damages can be used as well sign concerning finding out well surviving citrus specimens. Only Problem may be I think that those specimens have a grater part of poncirus - also regarding fruit properties.

Ilya11,
know the Problem you have....also here since I would say 5 years we did not have a very hard winter any more. Well on the one side...my kakis and other exoctic plants lile Trachycarpus, Pistacia. Olea ....show no damages so Long. Good for the development of the individual plants...bad for knowing more alate which specimens are not worthy to keep them in the future.

To your question concerning C. ichangensis....I did not keep itbecause of its weak fruit quality.
.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #137 on: May 05, 2019, 12:46:13 PM »
Completely agree with Usirius that each winter presents different challenges for citrus resistance.
Basically still, there are two different scenarios: gradual late autumn cold acclimatization followed by either a dry freeze or a moist heavy snow.
The third challenge is a late winter/spring rise of temperatures broking dormancy  followed by an abrupt freeze.
Fully hardy hybrids other than having an ability to resist extremely low  temperatures and  burn by snow should have a very deep dormancy to avoid an abrupt winter return.
 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #138 on: May 05, 2019, 02:34:46 PM »
To your question concerning C. ichangensis....I did not keep it because of its weak fruit quality.
I think C. ichangensis may have much value for hybridization because it's the only fruit that does not have poncirus bitterness and is still fairly cold hardy. If you crossed it with something like citrange you might get something useful.

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #139 on: May 05, 2019, 03:33:43 PM »
SoCal, I have several years to plan where to go from this point. I've started TaiTri and Citrumelo seedlings and will evaluate their hardiness in the meantime. Any potential pairing of parents should offer either increased hardiness, or edibility. Hardiness is becoming apparent in the F2 survivals, but  palatability is unproven. I don't plan on re-introducing tender Citrus from this point forward. Therefore improvements in flavor would need to come from the very hardiest non-poncirus sources as you suggest, or from genes within hybrid populations. After the plants grow additional foliage, I will be able to taste-test them for Poncirus off-tastes as Ilya does.

If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit. In the past when I created Citrandarin hybrids, there was one edible (albeit sour) individual in the first generation. My understanding is that having mandarin parentage dramatically reduces the Poncirus off-flavors. Ruby blood orange, as the Citrus component of these F2 citranges likely won't provide such a benefit.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 08:39:42 PM by kumin »

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #140 on: May 05, 2019, 03:48:52 PM »
If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit.
Hybridizing very hardy citrus that is truly good eating quality is going to take a long time.
I would count yourself lucky if you are able to achieve a hybrid that can survive in your winters and doesn't have poncirus bitterness, even if it might not be good fruit quality.

Perhaps someone in the future could later take your achievement and use it to hybridize a better hybrid in the future.
Incremental progress. If you achieve a significant improvement, even if it might not be what you had hoped for, don't throw it away.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #141 on: May 05, 2019, 04:05:34 PM »
I've started TaiTri and Citrumelo seedlings and will evaluate their hardiness in the meantime.
There's no chance Citrumelo is going to survive for you in 6b. TaiTri might.

I do think Citrumelo is, generally, just a bit hardier than Citrange, but you are going to need a lot of seedlings to show any that exhibit exceptional hardiness, similar to the citrange trial you have already carried out.

Considering that you are in 6b, I could see the reluctance to use C. ichangensis in hybridization. Even C. ichangensis simply isn't hardy enough where you are.

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2019, 09:04:05 AM »
One of the surviving Segentranges has ragged edged central leaflets. They vary a bit, but are generally notched and have uneven leaf tips. This is one of the more vigorous plants, hopefully the asymmetrical leaves won't won't be matched with asymmetrical flowers. In my previous work on citrandarins there was some correlation between leaf and flower symmetry. A few had petaloid anthers in the flowers.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 05:07:42 AM by kumin »

Walt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #143 on: May 12, 2019, 03:28:53 PM »
If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit.
Hybridizing very hardy citrus that is truly good eating quality is going to take a long time.
I would count yourself lucky if you are able to achieve a hybrid that can survive in your winters and doesn't have poncirus bitterness, even if it might not be good fruit quality.

Perhaps someone in the future could later take your achievement and use it to hybridize a better hybrid in the future.
Incremental progress. If you achieve a significant improvement, even if it might not be what you had hoped for, don't throw it away.


As always, we have similar goals but are using different methods.  So far you have guessed right more than I have.  I have learned much from your results and modified my plans for the better.  Many thanks.

That said, I will be bringing in new breeding stock of pure citrus. 

I'll use Flying Dragon X Seedless Kishu.  Flying Dragon as it is my oldest P. trifoliata that gives a good percentage of zygotic seeds.  Seedless Kishu for its dominant gene for seedless.

I want to use Flying Dragon X Blood oranges.  Blood oranges have been said ,elsewhere on this forum, to have no sourness.  While I want some sourness in my citrus  fruit, all my 1/2 and 1/4 Pt hybrid fruit are much too sour.  IF the "no sour" in blood oranges is due to a single gene, then F2 Flying Dragon x Blood might include no sour or less sour fruit.  I think that (Clem x tri) x Clem juice mixed with a no sour trifoliata hybrid juice might give a good drink.

Also, as I've said elsewhere, I'd like to remake all the citrus X P. trifoliata crosses using Laaz's precocious P. t and using P.t like Poncirus+.

If anyone has the trees to make any of these crosses, but no room to grow them out, make the crosses and I'll make room for the seedlings.  And I'll share budwood as soon as possible.

Walt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2019, 03:32:35 PM »
SoCal, I have several years to plan where to go from this point. I've started TaiTri and Citrumelo seedlings and will evaluate their hardiness in the meantime. Any potential pairing of parents should offer either increased hardiness, or edibility. Hardiness is becoming apparent in the F2 survivals, but  palatability is unproven. I don't plan on re-introducing tender Citrus from this point forward. Therefore improvements in flavor would need to come from the very hardiest non-poncirus sources as you suggest, or from genes within hybrid populations. After the plants grow additional foliage, I will be able to taste-test them for Poncirus off-tastes as Ilya does.

If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit. In the past when I created Citrandarin hybrids, there was one edible (albeit sour) individual in the first generation. My understanding is that having mandarin parentage dramatically reduces the Poncirus off-flavors. Ruby blood orange as the Citrus component of these F2 citranges likely won't provide such a benefit.


Sorry.  This was the quote that I meant to have in my post above.

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2019, 04:46:07 PM »
One thing to contemplate is if truly hardy edible Citrus is developed for climate zone 6b, the initial threshold for palatability may be set rather low. There will be no competing cultivars, that situation will likely change if the first cultivars can be utilized in further crosses to improve and refine flavors. Developing the initial cultivar with acceptable fresh eating quality could get the ball rolling in this respect. At this point the theoretical, as well as practical upper limit for cold hardiness is found in P. trifoliata. I don't think this upper limit is likely to change as there isn't any close relative that can offer greater hardiness. At best, advanced kumquat crosses might genetically contribute prolonged dormancy.

Ilya has stated that Poncirus shows heterozygosity for cold hardy genes. Perhaps, an improvement in hardiness could be made by selecting for homozygosity for these factors.

Ilya11

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2019, 05:27:10 PM »
If I will have the second wave of flowering of Poncirus+ trifoliata this summer, I could pollinate it with the pollen of acidless orange Gosset that I have.
Selection of hardy F1 citranges and crossing  between them  can  eventually give acidless hybrids without internal oils  closer to PT in winter resistance. It is a little bit out of my current goals so may be I can share the eventual  F1 seeds with you.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2019, 06:20:37 PM »
Great idea, Ilya, Poncirus has plenty of acidity to contribute to it's progeny.

kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #148 on: May 12, 2019, 07:05:23 PM »
I have been a bit less active in posting lately, as I have potted 130 Poncirus seedlings in preparation for propagation of the F2 seedlings.
One of the germinating seedlings planted several weeks ago snapped the stem off during emergence due to the cataphyllic leaves not releasing from the planting media.

The seedlings were in a humidity dome and the severed apical stem didn't desiccate. On an impulse I grafted it on a 6 year old Poncirus tree (fruiting for the first time). Due to chilly weather it hasn't grown much, but it's apparently succeeded. I have previously grafted newly emerged seedlings successfully. The less differentiated tissue appears to take rather well. These aren't grafts in the truest sense, the rootstock is prepared as for budding, the seedling scion is inserted as a thin sliver 1/16 - 1/8 inch (2.5mm). If I find time, I will try to take photos of the process at some point.


kumin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2019, 06:33:39 PM »
Here is one of the hardiest plants in the group of survivors. Although not the most vigorous plant, it is unique for several reasons. This plant is growing out to the tip, with no dieback. The upper third of the plant is thornless, which is unusual considering it's hardiness. I will be propagating and monitoring this plant closely, despite it's flaws. Getting extreme hardiness combined with low thorniness is one step in the right direction. I'm interested in it's fruiting behavior and qualities. This plant also exibits prolonged dormancy/delayed spring leaf emergence.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:41:49 AM by kumin »

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk