Author Topic: Container Size  (Read 6481 times)

MarinFla

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Container Size
« on: February 11, 2012, 11:46:15 AM »
I have started a bunch  Jackfruit seedlings ( Mai-3, Bangkok Lemon and J-31) some of which I intend to keep containerized. Just an after thought that came to me today: Is it better  to start  seedlings in a 20 gallon container to avoid transferring or up potting? Or is it better to start them off in 1 gallon size containers and up-pot each time  the roots fill the container? 

Seadation

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 12:44:22 PM »
I have 18 seedling Bangkok Lemons that I have grown out in 1 gal containers. I'm planning on just repotting them to a larger container when they outgrow the 1 gal. I'm actually givin them away to friends and family so hopefully won't have to buy a bunch of larger containers. Best thing would be to plant in ground after they outgrow the 1 gal or I would probably go from 1 gal to about a 10 gal if you want to keep them in a container.

lycheeluva

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 01:06:22 PM »
good q Marin- I have always wondered the answer to that q. Personally, I have always potted straight from 1 or 3 gal pots to the largest pots i can lug around (around 20 gallons), figuring that:

 first, the plant would immediately have as much room as it needed,
 secondly, that I would save the plant the stress of up-potting a year or so down the road.
third, the plant would be less likely to dehydrate in the hot summer months if it is in a large pot.

 I dont know if this is the cirrect strategy. Looking fwd to hearing what people have to say about this

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 01:27:23 PM »
For me, depends on root system of species and how you intend to grow the plant.

Jackfruit root system should be fine to gradually step up, from 1-3-7-15-25, gradually.

But for Stelechocarpus burahol, I started mine in a pot that's about 2ft deep...I'd do the same for pawpaw....but have heard you can just cut the tap root, and put it in a much shallower pot...I have had seen roots of garcinias get very long, and coil around the bottom of the pot several times....I didn't seem to bother the tree, but have heard some treat certain garcinias almost like a pawpaw with tap root.


Hope this helpful, and you fruit jackfruit in a pot!

« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 06:50:40 PM by ASaffron »
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Re: Container Size
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 03:45:03 PM »
Jakfruit are supposed to have a very substantial main tap root.  I hav always started my jak seedlings in 1 gallon pots.  However, I usually allow them to stay in those pots for too long and they get stunted. My thought is that as long as you don't wait for stunting to occur, like I do, you can do either successfully.  Potting smaller allows more control and use of less materials....so that is my reccomendation.

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Herman

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 04:13:57 PM »
I used to have the same thought about starting plants in the largest pot to avoid repotting, but have found that that is the easiest way for the plant to develop root rot.  When the soil to root ratio is high, the soil in container will stay wet for too long since there is not enough roots to use up the water.

Planting in the earth is different because the earth acts like a giant wick and draws the excess water elsewhere. 

So I would go with repotting.  It is sometimes even appropriate to repot a size down if root pruning is implemented.

-Herman

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 04:37:40 PM »
I used to have the same thought about starting plants in the largest pot to avoid repotting, but have found that that is the easiest way for the plant to develop root rot.  When the soil to root ratio is high, the soil in container will stay wet for too long since there is not enough roots to use up the water.

Planting in the earth is different because the earth acts like a giant wick and draws the excess water elsewhere. 

So I would go with repotting.  It is sometimes even appropriate to repot a size down if root pruning is implemented.

-Herman

I've been container-growing for a long time, and I would agree with Herman- it is much better to start with a smaller container and gradually increase the size to avoid problems with root rot.  For plants with long tap roots, tall but narrow pots are available (commonly called "tree pots" here) which are 3"x3"x18" tall- this is what I start all my pawpaw seedlings in.  Since medical marijuana was legalized in Colorado, there's now a hydroponics store in almost every strip mall and these pots aren't too hard to find here.

Kevin

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 06:49:28 PM »
I used to have the same thought about starting plants in the largest pot to avoid repotting, but have found that that is the easiest way for the plant to develop root rot.  When the soil to root ratio is high, the soil in container will stay wet for too long since there is not enough roots to use up the water.

Planting in the earth is different because the earth acts like a giant wick and draws the excess water elsewhere. 

So I would go with repotting.  It is sometimes even appropriate to repot a size down if root pruning is implemented.

-Herman

Herman,
Beautifully put...I've been trying to figure out how to say that for a while, and wish I could have expressed that same notion a bit more lucidly to the Central FL Tropical Fruit Club, when addressing the group about container culture.

Thanks for the post, and wise words I couldn't utter myself.
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Re: Container Size
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 01:12:43 AM »
For me, depends on root system of species and how you intend to grow the plant.

Jackfruit root system should be fine to gradually step up, from 1-3-7-15-25, gradually.

But for Stelechocarpus burahol, I started mine in a pot that's about 2ft deep...I'd do the same for pawpaw....but have heard you can just cut the tap root, and put it in a much shallower pot...I have had seen roots of garcinias get very long, and coil around the bottom of the pot several times....I didn't seem to bother the tree, but have heard some treat certain garcinias almost like a pawpaw with tap root.


Hope this helpful, and you fruit jackfruit in a pot!

You go this one right!  ;D Jackfruit is very easy to transplant and doesn't much mind. So i follow pretty much exactly the pottings size increments you suggest. When you're doing a lot of transplants for a nursery bizz and are limited in GH area for pots, medium, maintenance time (weesding, watering), then you will pot up in as small of an increment as possible. But if you are just doing this as a hobby and don't want the work of potting up so often, then it's fine to go 1 gallon to 5 gallon to 10 gallon to 25 gallon increments. I've never found root rot to be a problem unless you are overwatering your plants or are using a medium that is retaining too much water. If you have root rot then you probably need to add more permeable materials into your potting mix.
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Re: Container Size
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 02:29:57 AM »
Hey Marin what could I possibly trade you for one of those Bangkok lemon seedlings?!?

_JoeP450

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 10:13:49 AM »
I used to have the same thought about starting plants in the largest pot to avoid repotting, but have found that that is the easiest way for the plant to develop root rot.  When the soil to root ratio is high, the soil in container will stay wet for too long since there is not enough roots to use up the water.

Planting in the earth is different because the earth acts like a giant wick and draws the excess water elsewhere. 

So I would go with repotting.  It is sometimes even appropriate to repot a size down if root pruning is implemented.

-Herman

I think it is safe to say that the conventional wisdom is to go with gradual up-potting.

I agree with Herman but I would offer a different explanation.  He brings up the issue of what I know as the "perched water table" (PWT).  The PWT is the saturated growth medium that still holds water in the bottom of the pot after watering.  It is held there by the adhesive properties of the water.  The growing medium in this portion of the pot is anaerobic and the plants are vulnerable to root rot if this perched water table is too high. 

The height of the perched water table is dependent particle size of the growing medium.  Taller containers will have a smaller volume PWT as a percentage of their total volume.  But the actual height of the table is dependent on the growing media particle size.  Perlite/pine bark/Turface/coconut husk chips (CHC)/turkey grit have large particle size and minimal PWT.  Compost has small particle size and as many of you know, after a time gives you that stinky anaerobic sludge you sometimes see in the bottom of a container.

The particle size in most growing medium tends to break down over time.  Peat, and pine bark, common elements in mixes, will break down fairly quickly and the particle size will be reduced.  (Slower to break down would be perlite and CHC, and Turface and grit may not not break down much at all.)   Smaller particles wash to the bottom, and over time the PWT in a particular pot increases because of these smaller particles.

Herman's results, in my opinion, may have to do with the fact that by potting to the largest pot, you keep that plant in a given potter longer, giving those particles a longer opportunity to break down, and raising the PWT of the pot.  By potting up, you keep consistently larger particle size in the bottom of the pot and thereby a lower PWT.

I will also offer one other observation of the benefit of gradual up-potting.  I think that the root density with up-potting is increased and more even throughout the container.  It is my own observation that when placed into a too-large container, roots will sometimes crowd the perimeter, leaving a loose, crumbly portion in the center.  It is hard to root prune these plants because if you remove the outer 1-2" of root ball you have removed 90% of the roots!

Herman

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 11:03:50 AM »
Thanks Asaffron for your compliment, and thanks stressbaby for your explanation.  I've only recently begun to realize that the approach to container growing is totally different from planting in the ground.  For 5 years, I've only had 2 container-grown mangoes that were grown from a polyembryonic seed.  They were both started and kept for 5 years in six gallon containers.  They are suppose to be very disease resistant and flood tolerant, but one has already died to root root.  The other is on its way.  It is only a stump now, and continue to die back.  I used hydrogen dioxide to kill the root rot on this one and repotted to a pot smaller, but I don't think it is going to make it.  Both of them have/had ugly root structure.

murahilin

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 04:03:21 PM »

I think it is safe to say that the conventional wisdom is to go with gradual up-potting.

I agree with Herman but I would offer a different explanation.  He brings up the issue of what I know as the "perched water table" (PWT).  The PWT is the saturated growth medium that still holds water in the bottom of the pot after watering.  It is held there by the adhesive properties of the water.  The growing medium in this portion of the pot is anaerobic and the plants are vulnerable to root rot if this perched water table is too high. 

The height of the perched water table is dependent particle size of the growing medium.  Taller containers will have a smaller volume PWT as a percentage of their total volume.  But the actual height of the table is dependent on the growing media particle size.  Perlite/pine bark/Turface/coconut husk chips (CHC)/turkey grit have large particle size and minimal PWT.  Compost has small particle size and as many of you know, after a time gives you that stinky anaerobic sludge you sometimes see in the bottom of a container.

The particle size in most growing medium tends to break down over time.  Peat, and pine bark, common elements in mixes, will break down fairly quickly and the particle size will be reduced.  (Slower to break down would be perlite and CHC, and Turface and grit may not not break down much at all.)   Smaller particles wash to the bottom, and over time the PWT in a particular pot increases because of these smaller particles.

Herman's results, in my opinion, may have to do with the fact that by potting to the largest pot, you keep that plant in a given potter longer, giving those particles a longer opportunity to break down, and raising the PWT of the pot.  By potting up, you keep consistently larger particle size in the bottom of the pot and thereby a lower PWT.

I will also offer one other observation of the benefit of gradual up-potting.  I think that the root density with up-potting is increased and more even throughout the container.  It is my own observation that when placed into a too-large container, roots will sometimes crowd the perimeter, leaving a loose, crumbly portion in the center.  It is hard to root prune these plants because if you remove the outer 1-2" of root ball you have removed 90% of the roots!

Stressbaby,
You should write an entire topic on this and it deserved to be FAQ'ed and stickied. Please!

TropicalFruitHunters

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 07:17:03 PM »
Wouldn't you also want his write-up on the Wiki page?

murahilin

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 07:37:22 PM »
Wouldn't you also want his write-up on the Wiki page?

An even better idea.. If I could figure out how to use the damn wiki thing. I will try to figure out the wiki thing later this week.

stressbaby

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Re: Container Size
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 07:41:07 AM »
Wouldn't you also want his write-up on the Wiki page?

An even better idea.. If I could figure out how to use the damn wiki thing. I will try to figure out the wiki thing later this week.

Murahilin, when you do figure it out, let me know.  I would be happy to put something there; I looked at the wikipage yesterday and couldn't quite figure it out.