Author Topic: A special jaboticaba  (Read 2046 times)

Mike T

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A special jaboticaba
« on: December 09, 2020, 03:46:01 AM »
A few years ago a Brazilian contact offered me seeds of his prize dwarf heavy bearing white jaboticaba. I gladly relieved him of some and planted all the seeds in one big pot.One of the resulting seedlings was different and grew much faster. I suspected it was a cross or just healthier for some other reason and I nurtured and planted this. The rest of the pot of seedlings I gave to a farmer friend so they live productive lives. The resulting row of trees were indeed dwarf white jabs on his farm and are fabulously productive with lovely fruit.Oddly enough two of his dwarf whites had red fruit. AXP red dwarf I will call that as I suspect some phitrantha crossing has occurred.
Meanwhile my much larger semi dwarf I guess we will call it at home hadn't fruited. It took it 4 and a half years or so but it was worth the wait. It fruits often and heavily and fruit have great taste. They are usually extra large but a bit smaller at the moment because it has been so dry.

Here are some fruit and as I said they are usually much larger. This one has earned the name AXP as it is almost certainly a white x phitrantha but not a full dwarf.

Stevo

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2020, 05:11:12 AM »



Mvule101

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2020, 06:50:03 AM »
Wow that sounds amazing. How is the skin thickness?

TSmith

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2020, 07:39:47 AM »
Any pictures of these trees and fruit??

Mike T

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2020, 07:49:12 AM »
It reminds me of some of my workmates in being thin skinned.

CarolinaZone

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2020, 12:18:04 PM »
It reminds me of some of my workmates in being thin skinned.
Hahahahaha!!!!

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2020, 02:28:45 PM »
but it looks just like a typical costada P. phitrantha, hence the costate appearance, and purple skin.

I don't see how you'd confirm hybridization between aureana, and phitrantha?  that's like crossing a pitbull with a staffordshire terrier.
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Mike T

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2020, 03:45:13 PM »
Thanks Adam and there is always more to a story. I have costada and know it. It has a different growth pattern and foliage and the fruit are smaller but yes there is a resemblance in the fruit appearance. The reason I assumed some had outcrossed to phiitrantha  is that the outdoor planted parent my Brazilian friend had was in close proximity to several phitranthra which he also had growing.He did confirm that all in the batch sent came from aureana when I enquired and there was no mixup.
I will say that I really don't believe aureana and phiitrantha are different species but are just at different ends of a spectrum of tree size and fruit colour etc of a single species. Since both forms and all in between exist only in cultivation and not in the wild some may question the validity of both of these species anyway as stand alone entities.
 

Mike T

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2020, 03:53:20 PM »
It is raining too much for me to go outside and take a pic of my tree. It is over 10 feet tall now so almost as tall as my scarlets, upright in form and the fruit are perhaps more ribbed also than costada. It would be interesting to know the parentage and origins of costada.

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2020, 03:15:13 AM »
AXP is a fantastic new hybrid that has potential as it is early bearing and has very
large tasty fruit

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2020, 11:43:08 AM »
the phitrantha i named Sanford, came out of a batch of aureana seeds from Oscar in HI, and I believe he imported them from Brazil and resold them to me.  I just assumed it was a stray phitrantha seed that got thrown into the mix.

the Sanford tree is unique in terms of foliage, and growth habit, but it reminds me of ESALQ, and other phitranthas I've tasted.

the hybrids that tickle my fancy, are the ones where the parents are more distantly related. 

for example, Phitrantha x Grimal, Red x Trunciflora, Anomaly x Grimal, Red x Grimal, Sabara x Grimal, Sabara x Phitrantha, and so on...



Thanks Adam and there is always more to a story. I have costada and know it. It has a different growth pattern and foliage and the fruit are smaller but yes there is a resemblance in the fruit appearance. The reason I assumed some had outcrossed to phiitrantha  is that the outdoor planted parent my Brazilian friend had was in close proximity to several phitranthra which he also had growing.He did confirm that all in the batch sent came from aureana when I enquired and there was no mixup.
I will say that I really don't believe aureana and phiitrantha are different species but are just at different ends of a spectrum of tree size and fruit colour etc of a single species. Since both forms and all in between exist only in cultivation and not in the wild some may question the validity of both of these species anyway as stand alone entities.
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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2020, 12:18:30 PM »
i get excited, when i see attributes in the suspect hybrid, that I haven't seen in the parents....

for instance, the strange structure of these blooms, on a suspect Red x Grimal...

















and of course, the Kimber's Hybrid (Red x Grimal), this tree is maybe one of the finest tasting Plinias I've ever had, but I don't like to talk it up too much, I've only eaten less than 20 fruits.


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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2020, 12:23:11 PM »
It is raining too much for me to go outside and take a pic of my tree. It is over 10 feet tall now so almost as tall as my scarlets, upright in form and the fruit are perhaps more ribbed also than costada. It would be interesting to know the parentage and origins of costada.

the parentage of "costada"?

that is just a generic term for all phitranthas,

so like asking what is the parentage of a wolf....a wolf.
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Mike T

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2020, 03:25:20 PM »
https://www.daleysfruit.com.au/Jaboticaba-Costada-Myrciaria-phitrantha.htm
Adam Thank you for your input. Please see the link to find out what the dwarf costada variety is specifically and how it is being sold by nurseries. When you raised this name I thought you were referring to this which I have along with several other Phitrantha varieties. Being such a widely accepted and distributed Phitrantha I thought you were using that as a reference point.


Here is the tree in question and it is quite  unlike my phitranthras, My point about parentage especially of hybrids like scarlet or red hybrid is that their precise origins are unknown and parents seem to be speculative. Many of the suspected hybrids may be just random variation in the created species that don't exist in the wild.The wolf analogy just doesn't fit.
Sure get excited about crosses from more distantly related ones but remember the phenotypic plasticity of them means you can't look at them and know their genetic similarity.
The Brazilian from which I received them is a genuine jab heavyweight with a big collection and he advised there was no mistake in the seeds I received when I enquired afterwards and the case for outcrossed plants is a good one. The male parent if that is the case could be any one of maybe 50 or more varieties he has nearby.

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2020, 04:16:49 PM »
A few years ago when my capacity to deal with seeds I received was not as great as my enthusiasm for acquisition I traded seeds with quite a few generous Brazilians. I requested their best and rarest jabs but didn't appreciate the value what I received. I recall one huge parcel from Rio that had 4 coronata varieties and 4 coronata hybrids with very odd names. Oblongata,grandiflora and at least 30 or more other species and varieties was in that parcel alone.The number of aureana varieties seemed over the top. I didn't plant many but here is one from those heady times.


I don't know what this supposed dwarf phitrantha really is but it still hasn't fruited. Anyway the same farmer I gave those aureanas to which had the anomalous red fruiting ones also received many other types from me. I did spread them all around but this place has more of the perhaps 50 to 70 species and varieties I got between 8 and 4 years ago.I was asked to identify many of them by the farmer and I can only place a few. He didn't keep my original tags. There are some very strange jabs with all sorts of growth habits and foliage colours and some I could identify because they are just getting known now.

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2020, 04:20:59 PM »
but you do realize when you plant phitrantha seeds, they come up looking highly variable, in terms of foliage, and growth habit?  Some more upright, some more weepy and bushy...leaves of all sizes, some smaller than red, some larger than the parent.

i think my wolf analogy fits the needs of this situation, but as I've said before, I sent over 5 species to be analyzed for genetic markers, and they all appeared to be the same.

if they are capable of interbreeding and producing viable offspring, (that appears fairly stable when planted from seed afterwards) it seems like lines between species and variety are blurred.

they're all wolves to me, and the varieties/species that graft onto sabara are like other dogs, that can breed with a wolf.

https://www.daleysfruit.com.au/Jaboticaba-Costada-Myrciaria-phitrantha.htm
Adam Thank you for your input. Please see the link to find out what the dwarf costada variety is specifically and how it is being sold by nurseries. When you raised this name I thought you were referring to this which I have along with several other Phitrantha varieties. Being such a widely accepted and distributed Phitrantha I thought you were using that as a reference point.


Here is the tree in question and it is quite  unlike my phitranthras, My point about parentage especially of hybrids like scarlet or red hybrid is that their precise origins are unknown and parents seem to be speculative. Many of the suspected hybrids may be just random variation in the created species that don't exist in the wild.The wolf analogy just doesn't fit.
Sure get excited about crosses from more distantly related ones but remember the phenotypic plasticity of them means you can't look at them and know their genetic similarity.
The Brazilian from which I received them is a genuine jab heavyweight with a big collection and he advised there was no mistake in the seeds I received when I enquired afterwards and the case for outcrossed plants is a good one. The male parent if that is the case could be any one of maybe 50 or more varieties he has nearby.
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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2020, 04:24:50 PM »
hard to get excited about a phitrantha hybrid, that looks just like the parent, especially when you already have over 10 varieties of that species....
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Mike T

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Re: A special jaboticaba
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2020, 01:54:20 AM »
I think you are c0orrect questioning the validity of most jaboticaba species and clearly there are just a few superspecies like citrus divided way too much into species. It happens a lot in groups of horticultural and domesticated plants and the definition of species itself isn't a static thing.
So what really constitutes a hybrid or something new? It is pretty subjective stuff. When something looks as substantially different from its parent such as with AXP above I think we are on solid ground in getting excited and talking about being a hybrid.