THIEVES IN THE COMMUNITY

[BluMalibu]

You joined with the specific (sole?) intent to complain about a failed transaction, having nothing to do with TFF, that happened 4 years ago, correct? That's going to be unpopular for several reasons. We are a community, this is not Ripoff Report (https://www.ripoffreport.com/); you have outside beef, best to keep it outside. You want to join the community to learn, contribute, transact with other members, you are welcome. You want to get in-touch with a member through this forum, try sending them a Private Message or two, first. Going straight to starting a thread with a title like yours as your first communication, calling out a member for over a decade by their full name on a public forum, it's not going to be popular.

Actually it does have to do with TFF if you guys still have him listed on the seeds page as a vendor to order from? That kind of gives TFF’s stamp of approval saying he’s one of the good guys? Unless i’m mistaken?

Actually, it doesn't. TFF isn't a business. It's a community-driven forum, nobody (mods or otherwise) is paid for their time or efforts. Getting listed as a seller is not an endorsement of any kind; vendor approval seemingly consists of having a semi-functioning website and sending a PM request to be listed. TFF makes nothing and approves of no one; deals are arranged between members of their own accord. It's a laissez faire kinda place, and caveat emptor should always be the expectation.

Do the right thing and remove him from the pinned post, overwhelmingly negative reviews here by multiple people. To the ones that defend him (very few) If the accusations are not true why doesn't he come out of his hidings and defend himself? Think about that for a second.

Great post for newbies

[JF Paso]

Unfortunately JakeFruit, my circumstance was very much like Ollie's.  Without going into detail it was very disappointing because of the high regard people on this forum hold him. I wish Oscar well, but I understand Ollie's frustration when all other means of communication have been exhausted.
 I disliked writing this as it isn't why I am part of this forum, I just felt guilty letting Ollie stand out there on his own.

[Ollie510]

[Corycourtney]

I don't think you are understanding who "you" is here, 'cause it ain't me. Most of the old ones who started it all have attained a higher plane; one or two may arise in times of great need, but it's largely up to us as community to carry on what they started so long ago. Me, I'm just a guy that's good with tech and hates seeing forum spam. I provided some assistance with the site last year and offered to police spam accounts to give back to TFF. The members have helped me so much over the last few years with my trees, I'm doing what I can to give something back. This is a special place on the internet for most of us.

Oscar is the top listing because he "literally" was the first nursery to be added. Your member number is 34,023...his is 60. This isn't saying "know your place, junior" but he's freely given a shit load of time to this forum over the years. Calling him a thief without some hard receipts backing your case is suspect, at best. Nobody should be calling anyone on TFF a thief, for that matter, with only anger and hearsay backing the claim. I've read over a fair amount of transactions that didn't go smoothly, but most seemed to have more or less worked out between the buyer and seller. Prompt communication is key, as is paying with PayPal and never using the Friends & Family option so you can get a refund.

Receipts. PayPal wanted me to do a police report over it because he sent partial refund, making it his word against mine. Love being on trial here. ❤️‍🩹

[Corycourtney]

At this point, Oscar can defend himself. If you don’t endorse him, stay neutral and let people speak frankly. This boys club, where people are protected when multiple people are here complaining is not a good look. And is becoming more evident as this post stays up. Certain members are undoubtedly shielded. If you’ve had pleasant experiences with him voice it and move on, but trying to attack people’s credibility is a bit of an overreach given he isn’t endorsed by anyone. Sure seems like he is more than endorsed, he’s engrained into fabric of this entire forum.

[Corycourtney]

I’ve been hearing stuff as well. Same story, most people don’t want to be in the hot seat for speaking up. It’s a shame. I can’t say I blame them. Who wants their credibility smeared by people who aren’t even involved. Let Oscar come and try to ruin my credibility himself if I’m lying over 36$. You’re defending him like you’re getting paid to.

[Corycourtney]

I’ll even admit that most of the seeds that he did send were good. I’ve got a few seedlings from the seeds I purchased from him. So for me, quality of seeds isn’t on trial. It’s his business sense. I’m not here to drag anyone for any other reason than what they’ve actually done. Not in the business of unnecessarily defaming or slandering anyone. I absolutely wish that my experience was better. I’ve tried to be absolutely reasonable in this thread and somehow my credibility is on trial. Oscar just needs to send an updated invoice for orders he sends partials of so that people can keep that in their records. Would solve 95% of the problem here.

[roblack]

I don't know you Cory, but if a new person popped on here calling you or anyone else a "thief" to start off their membership, may question them as well.

Not defending anyone. Rather, promoting reason in the midst of an emotional seed situation.

[Corycourtney]

I don't know you Cory, but if a new person popped on here calling you or anyone else a "thief" to start off their membership, may question them as well.

Not defending anyone. Rather, promoting reason in the midst of an emotional seed situation.

While I’d understand that if this thread was Ollie alone, it quickly spread from him to others sharing similar stories and still ending up trying to be discredited. I’m not super active on here, I use this as a source to buy seeds and spend most of my time on Facebook. Where I even offered up where to find me as a moderator of a decently large group. I’ve got nothing to hide, it’s why my name is literally my username. First and last. How many people need to say something for this to hold water? Again I get people can be suspicious of the new profile, but everyone else? He also posted about this on his Facebook page in a group i’m active in. So when I saw him trying to be discredited here I felt the need to speak up. If Ollie doesn’t have receipts, I do. Which I’ve offered up. Not everyone is going to have their information after 4 years, even if he did send a printed updated invoice.

If someone on here called me a thief after just joining then I’d hope they’d have something to back it up or have multiple people saying the same thing about me to corroborate. Honestly not an issue I’m worried about so hard to know how I’d react in that situation. Which is why I keep my hands and nose clean. And why i’m here to report a statement of facts, not to slander anyone..

[Corycourtney]

I don't know you Cory, but if a new person popped on here calling you or anyone else a "thief" to start off their membership, may question them as well.

Not defending anyone. Rather, promoting reason in the midst of an emotional seed situation.

Personally I don’t know that I’d use the word thief to describe the situation. I chalked it up to bad business sense, and not something as malicious. Although he did short me 36$ on my refund after I sent him exactly what was missing from my order. So it leads me to think he’s not keeping good records, because I asked for my refund immediately after opening my package. To be clear, “thief” is Ollie’s interpretation. Doesn’t make whatever’s happening any less favorable for anyone who orders from him that ends up short changed. Which seems to have happened, based on this thread, to a few people and even more that don’t want to come forward.

Only remedy I can figure is for him to send an update invoice to those he sends IOUs to. That way they have something physical for their records so if they happen to wait 4 years, they can go to their Fruitlovers/Oscar IOU folder and show what is owed. So there is zero discrepancy. Because even asking for a refund immediately I was short changed and it was his word against mine in what was missing. Or just don’t send IOUs and deal in only what you have?

[JakeFruit]

Cory, that's a pretty clear story that is very relevant and you have the receipts. My main point (if not obvious by now) is posting all of it here does little good. No potential buyers are going to see this thread when it falls off the first page. You want people to know the problems/issues/failures, put it where they are most likely to see them. I've bought from several sellers on here, my process was to read over the entire sales thread (most sellers use the same thread year over year) and read other's experiences, especially how the seller deals with lost/incomplete orders. Put everything you posted here there, and if Oscar makes it right (sending you the missing seeds), post that there, too.

We both seem to agree on my other point. There's a difference between calling someone a bad businessman vs a thief. If the title of this thread was "BAD BUSINESSMEN IN THE COMMUNITY" I don't think there'd be nearly as much of an issue with it. I may come across as defending Oscar, but what I'm defending him from is being labeled a thief. A thief steals with purpose and tries to escape before they are caught. People may still choose to deal with a bad businessman (especially if they have something no one else can offer), but nobody in their right mind deals with a thief. That's a dangerous label to put on a person; in fact it's libelous. Calling a business (person) a thief on a public forum is not smart, especially if you don't have the hard receipts to prove it; a simple google search on the legality/liability of posting such a claim should make that clear.

[Corycourtney]

I’m only here because I saw Ollie being railroaded and I had a similar situation. To some people, a businessman who chronically shorts people and sends IOUs without payment is a thief. The semantics really lie in intention. Personally I’d feel better knowing this is a safe place where criticisms can be heard. I’ve dealt with lots of people over the course of the last year+ and I don’t have a single bad thing to say about any of them, aside from Oscar. This isn’t some higher standard, it’s just they send what I paid for and if they can’t make the full order they are immediately in touch with me to sort out the extra to keep everything copacetic.

For the sake of argument, let’s say 500 people were shorted/forgotten about on 40$ orders. That’s 20,000$ in unpaid seeds. You say that i’m number 34,000 something and he is 60 on this forum. That’s not even an implausible situation to play out. Is that still bad business or thievery? (Again a hypothetical argument, meant to illustrate a point, no need for libel lawyers)

[Ollie510]

[Ollie510]

I could chalk it up to just bad businessman UNTIL he decided to delete my comment and block me from further communication at that point he is committing to keeping my money, how is that not a thief?

[JakeFruit]

Ollie, it was a deal in 2018, it's 2022. He's not denying he did business with you, so those aren't the "receipts" that prove he's a thief. Cory's communication with him on his shorted order is (obviously?) what I meant by hard receipts. You could have been made whole through PayPal 4 years ago, but it's whatever. There's no money waiting for you at the end of this thread; declare victory and move on.

[Ollie510]

This thread was never about getting my money back i knew that was over when he blocked me this is a warning to other buyers. Theres no victory here simply a message to other collectors.

[Bush2Beach]

Oscar refunded me after 3-4 years .
You want to give him benefit of the doubt on year 1 , thinking he may send them during next years harvest, so it can take awhile to play out.
You can’t file a paypal dispute after 6+ months.
Many longtime rare fruit growers have alot of patience for the rarities to arrive because they can be hard to obtain, held up along the way,  and not available every season , it’s not Amazon 1 day delivery like some have come to expect for everything purchased online.
I have had trades and purchases take along time to come through. But they pretty much always do.

Ollie, it was a deal in 2018, it's 2022. He's not denying he did business with you, so those aren't the "receipts" that prove he's a thief. Cory's communication with him on his shorted order is (obviously?) what I meant by hard receipts. You could have been made whole through PayPal 4 years ago, but it's whatever. There's no money waiting for you at the end of this thread; declare victory and move on.

[Aaron]

Every business ive ever dealt with has always sent me a updated invoice with a new amount owed i don't understand why fruitlovers cant do that. I never asked for a refund because by the time i realized i wasnt getting the seeds i couldnt remember all the details and didnt want to get into it with someone. Id still like to order from them but dont want to play russian roulette with is it actually in stock or am i going to get an IOU

Maybe he should get into the NFT business i have a bunch of IOUs from some really rare stuff if anybody wants to buy them.

[johnb51]

This thread was never about getting my money back i knew that was over when he blocked me this is a warning to other buyers. Theres no victory here simply a message to other collectors.

Message and warning delivered.  Four pages worth .  Now looking forward to your fun and interesting posts about what you're growing!

[ben mango]

For what it’s worth I have heard about Ollie before he is known to be a generous person who shares his collection of rare fruits with others.

[Giant Gecko]

Came by to warm up next to this dumpster fire.

This is my advice for any buyer on here or anywhere online. Use PayPal no matter how known the seller is and no friends and family option. You have 180 days around 6 long months to file a dispute.Me personally don’t have the patience to wait that long. If someone is more patient than that they should tell the seller to refund then let them know when the seeds are actually Available. Simple as that.

[Iceman716238]

Scam likely. Pretty clear situation.  He paid for seeds that he did not get and had to beg to get a refund(not even a full refund) on what he paid for and did not recieve. Seller should have been up front and said that he didn't have everything to fulfill the order before shipping. Dishonest seller. Don't defend him or you will show that you have a like minded ethic... period

[mfysal]

I bought couple of times from Oscar, shipment were delayed, but I received.
But I lost money with Mr. Brian laufer for seeds 2 years back. . Sent him many messages, but no seeds or refund.

[Orkine]

JakeFruit, thank you very much for stepping up.  I appreciate your posts on this matter (and you may never know why)

I don't know the truth about the claims made by OP and the response by Oscar.  OP's post and Oscar's response on the second page have divergent claims only on one fact.  The are both agreed not all the items purchased were shipped.  One is waiting for seeds or a refund and the other claims a refund was made.

Some people have shared their experience about seeds not being shipped but unless I misread, they also got refunds (even if 2 to 3 years later).

I pray OP didn't get a refund because if he did a great disservice has been done.  .. and if he didn't, the full pound of flesh has been taken.

Please, I am not defending anyone, just summarizing this thread as I see it.  I know from having provided services to people in the past that for everyone that made a negative comments, there are possibly 10 more that have not, and just let it go.  For every one though that has left a positive experience, there are possibly a thousand that will not engage or get involved.  Our expectation and what we paid for was service and there is nothing to say when we get it.  The motivation to speak is much higher and often exercised when we get a bad experience (even if it is eventually resolved). 
 

[Mango Stein]

Sending people old and desiccated seeds with zero chance of germination is stealing in my book.

You're right Oscar, you don't need to steal, but you do it anyway, just the right amount that you can obviously get away with.

I contacted you about the rubbish Lacmellea seeds that you sent, you did not even bother coming up with a lie. Previously you had sent Eugenia pyriformis that were also dead, I foolishly put that down to bad luck and didn't make a fuss. I tend to just cut my losses since I am not a big time trader. And you blocked me on Facebook not even for a business complaint but because I pointed out in a thread that the nomenclature on your website is poor... so you are offended with mild corrections while being pedantic with amateurs about their occasional use of an incorrect binomial...