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Messages - a_Vivaldi

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: September 18, 2023, 05:43:01 PM »
Oh that's cool, I'd have just expected one parent, the other, or a mix. I think Ilya uses taste as a predictor of flavor, right? This bodes well, hopefully you'll get fruit off that one reasonably soon.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: September 18, 2023, 02:59:21 PM »
With the mix of Meyer lemon and poncirus hybrid, I'd bet those leaves smell really interesting when crushed.

Seems to be living up to is name then. That's cool

My p. Robustum has been the hardiest guava Ive grown so far

What kind of temperature has it taken?

to buy a Kumquat Tree in Florida... to bring back to Ohio

Please, please, please do not do this.

I don't know if you've played Elden Ring, but Florida is citrus Caelid.

If your plant has HLB, or one of the numerous other disease and pests afflicting citrus in Florida, there is a very real possibility of it spreading, even in Ohio (there are plenty of native relatives of citrus, not to mention other people growing citrus, and plenty of insects who could prove to be chance vectors). There are a lot of ways of getting really nice kumquats without breaking state and federal law and endangering people's livelihoods and, even worse, hobbies. I second the suggestion of Madison Citrus Nursery--they're amazing, have reasonable prices, and great plants.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus hybrid crosses
« on: August 23, 2023, 02:29:27 PM »
Nothing against what was said above, if you want that much genetic variation in your population.  But there are already 4 mostly zygotic mandarin x Ponciris hybrids in use.  US 1279, 1281 and 1282 are more than 95% zygotic, and 852 is about 85% zygotic.  And Kumin has some F2 citranges that have survived 4 (or is it 5 now?)zone 6 winters.  And he has collected some citrimelos and such to bring into his population.  I think he is closer to success and will have an easier time than is being talked of here.
I am trying about the same way but I'm way behind him, in spite of his sharing his stock with me.  We are both in zone 6, but our climate and soil are different, and our time and space are different.
Also I am also working toward a hardy finger lime.  I didn't know that Australian citrus don't cross well with Ponciris.  However, at least one finger lime x Ponciris exists in Florida.  They aren't sharing it.  At least not with me.
I hope my saying this keeps others from trying to breed hardier citrus, and trying different methods, and working toward different goal.  I have been in touch with someone in Tennessee zone 7,  working on hardier kumquats via kumquat x Ponciris.  I think he will be successful in a few generations.
I wish success to all of us.  And have fun!

These are very good points. In hindsight, my post was probably too pessimistic/daunting. I certainly would never want to drive someone away from citrus breeding.

The two issues I see with those USDA rootstocks are the limited genetics and the even more limited availability. All three of them are derived from the same Poncirus parent and mostly the same mandarin parent as well, and to date, I haven't seen anyone actually offer them, at least to use plebs. I do plan to ask Stan McKenzie about them when I get around to visiting his nursery (had planned the trip on two occasions this summer, but scuttled those plans were, twice...).

US852, and the child seedling the name of which is escaping me at the moment, that I believe kumin also has, do seem like good options, though the same mild criticism still applies, limited genetics and even more limited availability.

Working with the more distant citruses, like the Aussie ones and kumquats, seems to me like it would be a bit riskier, since the wide genetic crosses could lead to trouble down the road (correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Thomasville basically sterile, only able to clone itself? I feel like that kind of dead-end will turn up more often for those wide crosses). Not saying people shouldn't be doing it, not at all, I hope people are doing it, and I hope they succeed. I just strikes me as a riskier path.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus hybrid crosses
« on: August 22, 2023, 12:56:57 PM »
Yeah, cold hardy citrus breeding is no walk in the park.

Again, one of the biggest roadblocks is high rates of nucellar seed. What probably needs to happen at some point is someone needs to make a dedicated effort to breed zygotic seed into cold hardy citrus.

To do that, you'd want to take a bunch of fully zygotic varieties like Meyer lemon, ichang papeda, one of the more cold hardy pomelos, rough Seville orange or some other zygotic sour orange, then some combination of (1) breed then with each other, using ichang papeda as your main source of cold hardiness and then screen your F2 generation for hardiness (2) cross them with the handful of zygotic poncirus hybrids (eg the SuperSour series of rootstocks) and again screen for cold hardiness in the F2 generation, (3) find out which fairly cold hardy hybrids have one fully zygotic patent, ichang lemon for example, and cross it with your zygotic varieties, then screen the F1 generation for zygotic seed, and (4) cross them or some of your good F1s and F2s with the nucellar but very hardy hybrids and varieties like 5*, Dunstan, Changsha, then backcross those F1s with your fully zygotic plants again so that hopefully you'll have some fully zygotic F2s.

Lots of options, but none of them would get you results in a single generation. You'd probably need another two generations to then select for the best cold hardiness. That's at least a lifetime of breeding work. However, were someone to do this, it would make cold hardy citrus breeding much, much easier. And if you went for an four options, and were sure to include a wide variety of sources of zygotic seed (lemon, pomelos, sour orange) you'd end up with a lot of genetic diversity to work with to get the fruit quality you'd need for something not just edible, but good.

8B is probably one of the better zones for attempting a project like this.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus hybrid crosses
« on: August 21, 2023, 07:15:30 PM »
Different flowering times is an issue. Honestly citrus is probably one of the harder fruits to work with for breeding.

A few other things to keep in mind:

Pollen is not always compatible, and in more distance species is rarely is.

Hybrid embryos often abort before maturing into a viable seed.

Many cultivated varieties, especially the more complex hybrids and highly ingressed varieties, are pollen sterile, or nearly so.

Similarly, some varieties either don't set seed, or have poor seeds that are either low in viability or have low vigor seedlings.

Very few citrus are precocious. Depending on the species, you may need to wait seven, even ten years or longer before first flowering, and perhaps another year or two before fruit will hold and mature. Winter damage and more vigor can make this process even slower.

Not everything is graft compatible with everything else.

Really distant crosses may have ploidy barriers. Citrus seedlings also seen to have a somewhat high rate of polyploidy, but higher ploidy citrus aren't much used for breeding except for creating seedless triploids.

Many of the traits that you'd want to select for, such as zygotic and monoembryonic seeds, deciduous leaves, appear to be recessive, multi gene, or both. And some really negative traits, like nucellar seed, and the terrible bitter flavor of poncirus, are either dominant or really hard to breed out.

Citrus species and varieties are prone to nucellar embyos. A nucellar embryo is a clone of the mother plant. Even crossing different varieties of the same species can be nearly impossible, for example many mandarins have seeds with a greater then 99% chance of being clones, even when cross pollinated. This is realistically the biggest problem, because almost all cold hardy varieties, and honestly most edible varieties, are at least partially nucellar.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: New Kumquat Variety?
« on: August 05, 2023, 01:09:53 PM »
No reviews yet. Wouldn't hurt to message the seller and ask them about it. Heck, the might even be a member of this forum and would be interested in making their case for the new variety.

This is very cool then. How's the uniformity of your seedlings? My assumption with anything c reticulata is it's probably more nucellar then not, but I'd love to know what you're experience has been.

If it died at 9F, I assume it had survived since nights in the teens before that, yes?

Oh nice find!

Maybe the nursery had some stock in their collection and decided to propagate it on the chance people would be interested in it for the HLB resistance genes it might carry.

Whatever the reason, nice to see C. glauca crosses in the trade. Not sure who could grow this, since I assume the Shekwasa parent isn't cold hardy at all, being from Okinawa.

So it is. I assume this is a new cross that no one has grown yet, because I don't see mention of it anywhere at all.

Not sure since when, but Madison now has a "Erem x Shek" cross available. Anyone have any idea what that tree is like? I'm guessing this is a new cross.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Stan McKenzie has a new Etsy shop!!
« on: July 02, 2023, 06:13:18 PM »
Link, since both Google and Etsy have crap search engines these days:

Thank Ilya, if I can pull together enough data from the literature for the varieties I've got in the table I'll definitely include columns for this.

I was under the impression that most citrus were at least weakly parthenogenic, with just a few notable exceptions? Of course, I'm no expert)
If there is a lot of variability, do you know of good places to find that information? Digging through old forum posts and papers from the 70s gets old.

Those with low % zygotic are not dead ends if they make normal pollen.  But this list will help people choose seed parents,

Yeah, dead end is a bit too harsh. But it is a pretty significant issue imho. Given how dominant the trait is, even using highly nucellar varieties as pollen parents will mean that the resulting hybrids will likely also have nucellar seedlings. I considered putting in a column about whether the highly nucellar varieties may be heterozygous or homozygous with regards to that trait, but I've not seen enough papers actually saying nucellar seedlings is just a classic mendelian trait so I'm not confident in putting that kind of information out there, let alone good sources on which highly nucellar varieties are hetero/homozygous. Heck, just cold-hardiness and %zygotic is already pretty messy...

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Macrophylla Vs FD vs C-35 root stock
« on: June 02, 2023, 09:20:35 PM »
Poncirusguy, any tips on doing so? I assume containers and extending the growing season?

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB - Ichang Papeda
« on: June 01, 2023, 09:58:38 PM »
I'm not the original poster but I'm also on the lookout for ichang papeda.

Very cool, hopefully it'll set those fruit for you!

I'm going to check with Stan McKenzie later to see if he's got any US-1279. Even if it's only as hardy as Changsha it'll be nice to have something both highly zygotic and hardy.

Would these be your first fruits from US-1279 kumin?

Thank you for creating this resource. 

10 Degree Tangerine 3-3 died at 9 F. -12.8 C
10 Degree Tangerine 2-2 survived
CiClem 10 is approximately as hardy as 2-2
Curafora barely survived

Thanks! I'll get those added once I'm back at my computer. Any idea on if any of them give much zygotic seed?

Part of my motivation here is the fact that precious few cold hardy citrus also produce mostly zygotic seeds. There are a lot of hardy citrus, but almost all of them are basically dead ends when it comes to breeding. Identifying the ones that are both cold hardy and zygotic, and creating a reference for them, is something I've noticed is weirdly lacking on the forum and on the internet in general.

Interesting table, though we all know, that the datas can only show a rough estimate due to complex influences of coldhardiness, as rootstock, ..... From my experience some very cold hardy citrus as Citrumelo x Yuzu, Chimera Prag, Bloomsweet Pomelo, 5* Citrumelo and Morton Citrange are still missing.
Morton ( on Poncirus) and Chimera Prag ( survived in my region -16 C with fleece protection (Morton on FA 5 with 30% twig damage). The others -13 C also as a 1 year old graft of Clem yuz 2-2 on Poncirus.


1rainman, the Coachella eremolemon may be just that. There's conflating information on whether it is c. glauca x Meyer or c. glauca x unknown grapefruit. I've read it's entirely nucellar, which to me suggests that it's x grapefruit. It's certainly one of the more readily available eremo hybrids, along with razzlequat (which may or may not be the same thing and may or may not be a kumquat hybrid). Since Coachella eremolemon should of have one copy of the gene for nucellar seedlings (assuming it is actually one dominant gene, which is what most literature I've seen says), if you used it as the male parent and crossed it with Meyer lemon you'd probably get some seedlings they would be fully zygotic and this useful for breeding.

Updated. Thanks!

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