Interesting Japanese persimmon cultivars

[greg_D]

I don't know a lot about persimmons but I found some interesting ones at the local Japanese grocery store yesterday. For size reference, the picture of them on the plate shows half a fuyu on the left alongside a quarter of each larger persimmon. They were good.

Is anyone familiar with either of the larger varieties referenced in this post? According to this: https://www.pref.wakayama.lg.jp/prefg/071700/an_nai/kaigai_d/fil/Persimmons.pdf Tonewase is an astringent variety that is gas-treated to become palatable (it was quite good so I'm assuming the treatment worked). Info on Taishu: https://growingfruit.org/t/anybody-growing-taishu-in-the-u-s/41910

[sc4001992]

Those are new varieties, I have not seen them before in the USA. What store did you find it?

I usually like to eas the non-astringent varieties. Looks like you like to eat them after they turn soft. I usually eat my Fuyu and Matsumoto wase when they are still orange color and firm flesh.

Thos large Taishu persimmon looks good. Did you taste any before they got soft? If you did, is it crunchy and sweet?

For the non-astringent variety, i like the Hyakume the best. I have this one and since it is (PVN) it requires another variety to pollinate the flowers to have the fruits non-astringent.

[greg_D]

Thanks! Tokyo Central in Gardena California. Both were soft (only got one of each). It might just be a function of my palate not being developed enough to notice the differences but to me the main appeal (as compared to the fuyu) was the size and the texture. They were both incredibly juicy; that combined with their large size made it really refreshing to bite into them. The flavor was at least as good as the fuyu, if not somewhat better, but it was 'this tastes really good' not 'this tastes incredible.' People more experienced eating different types of persimmons might get more out of it than I did.

[sc4001992]

Ok, thanks for the info, I will need to go there and see if I can find some fruits to try.

If you like to eat the persimmons when they are soft and not hard, then the Saijo is probably going to be the best tasting astringent ones to try. I grafted it on my giant fuyu tree which has the Hyakume, Matsumoto, Fuyu, Jiro, and Saijo grafts.

For the non-astringent fuyu type, the Jiro seems to be very good to me, large fruit, crunchy, sweet, seedless. But for the special sweet taste, the Hyakume is even better tasting.

Here's some photos of my persimmons from last season. I got the Saijo fruits from one of our forum member Janet.

[greg_D]

You seem to really know your stuff. I have a question for you if you don't mind me asking, and feel free to say no. My in-laws are selling their house in a couple months and have had a persimmon tree there for decades. It resembles fuyu to my untrained eye but apparently 'tastes better than any fuyu' the family has tried from a store. Would you mind me shipping you some fruit and maybe like a small cutting to see if you can figure out what it is? I would pay for the shipping.

[sc4001992]

Sure, is the fruit seedless?

I have many varieties grafted so it might be good for me to cut it, taste it. I will send you a PM.

Also, if you want to send me some cuttings, I can graft it on my tree to maybe preserve it if it is different from the ones you can buy at the nurseries.

I went to Tokyo Central to look for the Taishu but they had a different variety called Tonewase, it cost the same $8/lb, and seemed to have the same advertisement but when I looked up the fruit at home, it says it is an astringent variety. I will know soon since I'm doing a taste test with my fruits that are ripe.

[sc4001992]

Many times, as the persimmon tree gets older, the fruit will be at its best. It could be a Fuyu but maybe not.

Here's a photo I took of a Fuyu tree with fruits now.

[greg_D]

Thank you! I asked about the seeds, apparently the overwhelming majority of the fruits produced by the tree are seedless, but very rarely there will be one or two with seeds. They're coming down to visit for Thanksgiving and will bring some persimmons when they do; I can pack some in a USPS flat rate box and send them your way. Very kind offer re: cuttings, thank you. I'm assuming for cuttings they would need to be taken around January? I don't know much about persimmons but I know even less about grafting.

Also I will check my messages after posting this.

[Oolie]

It's possible that it's an actual Fuyu versus what is sold as Fuyu in the US.

The fact that seeds are present in some fruit indicates there is a male tree near enough for bees to bring pollen, potentially from the same tree.

If this is the case, it's possible for the tree to be a seedling, as some persimmons produce male flowers inconsistently, some almost never, and many never at all. This may be a seedling falling into one of those categories, but the fact that it's being identified as Fuyu indicates that it's a non-astringent variety which is very uncommon from seed.

It's worth trying it out, please report your opinion of the fruit.

[sc4001992]

Michael, if you still have some Chocolate persimmon branches on your tree that can be cut, I would like to get some. I can trade you for some (4) cuttings of my Matsumoto or Hyakume persimmon. This year I got 1/3 of my Hyakume fruits to pollinate and had seeds, the flesh was perfectly brown with black flecks. Taste was very good when eaten ripe (not soft).

[greg_D]

It's possible that it's an actual Fuyu versus what is sold as Fuyu in the US.

The fact that seeds are present in some fruit indicates there is a male tree near enough for bees to bring pollen, potentially from the same tree.

If this is the case, it's possible for the tree to be a seedling, as some persimmons produce male flowers inconsistently, some almost never, and many never at all. This may be a seedling falling into one of those categories, but the fact that it's being identified as Fuyu indicates that it's a non-astringent variety which is very uncommon from seed.

It's worth trying it out, please report your opinion of the fruit.

It's definitely grafted. There's unpruned growth that has emerged from the rootstock. The rootstock makes tiny fruit.

[sc4001992]

That's good to know that your tree is grafted. At least it is probably a named variety. If the tree is very old, it may be one of those varieties that they don't sell at the nursery anymore. The fruit photo I showed above is an old variety that I labeled "unknown/with seed". That tree is still growing strong with lots are fruits yearly at my dad's house. It is about 40 yrs old and tree looks good, fruits are large, taste better than fuyu.

[JCorte]

Kaz, have you tried the Suruga persimmon? It's described as being non astringent, really sweet, rich flavor.  My grafts didn't take last year.  What about Coffee Cake?  I think it's non astringent but may need a pollinator.  i heard a lecture a couple years ago and I think that was one of the researchers favorite.

Janet

[Nick C]

Kaz, have you tried the Suruga persimmon? It's described as being non astringent, really sweet, rich flavor.  My grafts didn't take last year.  What about Coffee Cake?  I think it's non astringent but may need a pollinator.  i heard a lecture a couple years ago and I think that was one of the researchers favorite.

Janet

Coffee cake is definitely non astringent but apparently the fruit quality greatly improves if pollinated by the chocolate variety

Heres some coffee cakes off my tree from this year

[sc4001992]

Janet, yes I have tasted Coffecake and Chocolate, they are good, but not as good as the Hyakume to me. People tastes differ so you might like some others. I heard about the Suruga and bought a few scions last year but I didn't graft soon enough so when I did graft it the scionwood didn't look so good. I will probably buy more when it's on sale again for next spring grafting.

Chocolate is like the Hyakume both are pollination variant non astringent (needs cross pollination or flesh will not have seeds and turn brown and sweet). If it doesn't get pollinated, I hear you can still wait until it gets soft and most of the astringency will be gone.

A friend has a large Coffee cake and Chocolate tree, and he gives me fruits when they ripen. Coffee cake was good, but my Hyakume was better to me. Coffee cake is supposed to have some cinnamon/spicy taste, but I didn't taste any of that in the fruits I ate. I'm grafting both of these so i have more pollinators for my Hyakume.

[Oolie]

Michael, if you still have some Chocolate persimmon branches on your tree that can be cut, I would like to get some. I can trade you for some (4) cuttings of my Matsumoto or Hyakume persimmon. This year I got 1/3 of my Hyakume fruits to pollinate and had seeds, the flesh was perfectly brown with black flecks. Taste was very good when eaten ripe (not soft).

Yes, if Chocolate survives the gophers, I will have scions for sure. I'm very eager to graft Hyakume again as it was excellent even when not pollinated. I can only imagine how great it will be when it is.

I'm not sure about coffeecake, as I've also heard that it has excellent cinnamon and spice notes, but I also haven't tasted it in them, so I suspect it's either related to inconsistent features or a factor of ripeness. The gophers got the California Maru this year (6 year old mature tree). It's always had a spicy tannic note, but never the aromatic quality I seek in persimmon. I will be seeking a replacement this fall.

[sc4001992]

As for the taste of coffeecake, I never tasted any cinnamon flavor but it is good, better than the store bought fuyus.  Nick can probably comment more since he has a nice looking fruit. His fruit looks like it has excellent brown coloring, can't get better than what his photo shows. I purchased a bare root coffeecake to graft onto my large trees but the tree was not in good shape so the grafts did not take. But from what I have read, it says Chocolate is the best variety to graft onto the Hyakume for cross pollination. One good thing about the Hyakume is that the fruit is medium/large size so more to eat than a Fuyu or Matsumoto.

The best source for the persimmon is this one :
https://fruitwoodnursery.com/persimmon-scionwood-diospyros-kaki

[sc4001992]

Here's some photos of my Hyakume from past years to show how large the fruits are. Also I wanted to show the inside of the fruit when it is not pollinated, and it tastes bitter/astringent unless you let it get soft (which I don't prefer to eat soft persimmons).

[Oolie]

The heavy producing is why it snapped my branch, I thought I thinned enough, but no way, every fruit tries to get large.

Even when it's gotten soft and the astringency has faded, the texture is firmer than other persimmons I've tried, it has a very nice sweet spot.

[sc4001992]

For the astringent variety, I liked the texture and taste of Janet's Saijo the best. I now have some grafted on my large tree so I hope to get some fruits in the next few years.

These Asian persimmons tastes really good (both astringent and non-astringent) if you dehydrate them. Some friends say you can keep the dehydrated persimmon for up to a year. I just ate some and it is still good after one year.

[sc4001992]

Greg,

Ok, I did do a quick taste test with some folks this week. As I mentioned above, I went to Tokyo Central and purchased the Asian persimmon they had called Tonewase.

I cut four varieties up (removed the skin), and ask four people to taste them and tell me which one they liked the best.

The four varieties tested was Fuyu, Jiro, Tone wase, and Hyakume. The winner was Hyakume for the non-astringent test. I don't know if Suruga would be better tasing since I have never tasted it yet. I did eat many of the Chocolate and Coffecake and I woulld say the Coffecake is maybe number 2 on the best tasting of the ones I had.

[Nick C]

Michael, ok, let me know when you plan to graft, I should be able to take cuttings (a few each) of the Hyakume, Matsumoto, Jiro, Fuyu (old 20+ yr old tree).

As for the taste of coffeecake, I never tasted any cinnamon flavor but it is good, better than the store bought fuyus.  Nick can probably comment more since he has a nice looking fruit. His fruit looks like it has excellent brown coloring, can't get better than what his photo shows. I purchased a bare root coffeecake to graft onto my large trees but the tree was not in good shape so the grafts did not take. But from what I have read, it says Chocolate is the best variety to graft onto the Hyakume for cross pollination. One good thing about the Hyakume is that the fruit is medium/large size so more to eat than a Fuyu or Matsumoto.

The best source for the persimmon is this one :
https://fruitwoodnursery.com/persimmon-scionwood-diospyros-kaki

To be honest, these didn't really taste too different from any regular fuyu I've had before. However, these were the first fruits the tree put out and they were still pretty firm. I'm thinking i may have picked too early with hopes of them softening up on the counter. Gona let these sit on the tree a little longer next year. Currently waiting on some Fire crystal and a weeping variety still on tree

[Lovetoplant]

Kaz how can you tell which ones of the Hyakume fruits were pollinated when pick?

[sc4001992]

Lovetoplant, not so easy to tell by simply looking at the fruit on the tree. Most of the fruits looks similar in size, color, outside appearance.

Let me find a photo I took of the Hyakume which has been properly pollinated.

[sc4001992]

Lovetoplant

Ok, here's some photos I took which shows the Hyakume that is pollinated and non-pollinated.

The pollinated ones seems a little darked when you look at the outside of the fruit. Also it has rings or what looks like scratches. The non-pollinated ones are usually lighter color skin and smooth. I will post these photos but since there are so much, I will delete most of them after you look at it tomorrow.