Author Topic: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial  (Read 24258 times)

Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2025, 07:00:05 PM »
mkono, how are your seedlings looking now? Things have warmed a bit in my location and my seedlings are looking almost all dead now.

mkono

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2025, 03:52:10 PM »
mkono, how are your seedlings looking now? Things have warmed a bit in my location and my seedlings are looking almost all dead now.

They are looking dead too, sadly. We'll see if there are any runts that made it through but it's quite possible I have a 100% fatality rate...

Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2025, 05:43:07 PM »
I'm hoping for a surprise survivor as well. I think we will know final results in the summer but thank you for the update and sorry it did not go a bit better.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2025, 10:48:51 PM »









Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2025, 10:51:28 PM »
I have a few that look to be alive. Most of these show damage but given that it is May and they still have green leaves, I think they have survived.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2025, 10:52:39 PM »
mkono, have you taken a look recently at your seedlings?

mkono

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2025, 01:53:35 PM »
Yes, I have a few that have suffered obvious damage, but are re-sprouting from the base of the stem. I am planning on digging these up and putting them in a slightly more protected location.



I also still have the monofoliate seedling that looks remarkably like a cleopatra mandarin at this point, I'd say. Thornless and no signs of trifoliate lives. I am unsure if this is actually a F2 hybrid or if a seed from another plant got mixed in my order.





Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2025, 06:36:30 PM »
I'm glad that you have a few that are re-sprouting. It was a cold winter and those that survived likely have some potential.  I decided to mulch my survivors where they are and figure I'll see what they do during the second winter. Hopefully they handle the cold better in the second year. Are you planning to do any more trials?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 01:15:05 AM by Curiousgardener23 »

mkono

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2025, 03:08:20 PM »
Are you planning to do any more trials?

Yes. Despite the somewhat disappointing results I do think that there is merit in the idea of mass-planting F2 hybrids, especially for citrandarins. I ended up purchasing some C57 seed and have planted those out, taking some learnings from the last time I tried to do this. I should have more to post about this later. There seems to be more variation among seedlings than my X-639 attempt but time will tell!

Curiousgardener23

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2025, 05:33:53 PM »
I agree that there is merit to the mass-planting of F2 hybrids. C57 looks like a good choice for a second trial. The mandarin hybrids have great potential. I'll look forward to future posts!

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2025, 11:31:49 AM »
In my humble opinion... wouldn't it be better to use hybrids that come from a sweet fruit and poncirus? This would allow us to select for the edible characteristics and, at the same time, select for the cold resistance of poncirus. Maybe there are no seeds available... but Us-852 comes from Changsha and seems very zygotic, which is what is useful for obtaining abundant F2s for selection. I would rather crossbreed poncirus hybrids and thus obtain a new generation but overlapping varieties. E.g.: Us-852 x Citrandarina (Satsuma x poncirus), or Us-852 x Morton. It's a shame I'm not in the US, but otherwise I would make the seeds for you to test 😊👌🏻

Walt

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2025, 02:20:12 PM »
Zygotic citandarins x pollen from Kumin's selections should give a higher percent of survivers.

mkono

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2025, 02:21:02 PM »
My preference would be a changsha hybrid like us-852, but I cannot find a source of seed for the quantity I would need.

I am, though, at the same making some crosses with my own plants, but it will be years until I'd be able to produce the quantity of seed I am able to plant by purchasing them from rootstock seed providers.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2025, 02:56:15 PM »

Dr. Frey sowed 200 seedlings from Sanford Citrange (a zygotic variety). He falsely killed all trifoliate seedlings and still ended up with two edible varieties, Sanford Curafora and Vanessa. Ok, they were only moderately hardy. But from what a small number of seedlings!

Wasn't it Sanford "Venasca"? I have it under this name in my collection. Not great and less hardy than Curafora. Maybe less hardy than Enzo, a real Grapefruit.

usirius

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2025, 05:22:10 PM »
Dr. Edwin Frey, whom I knew personally and visited many times, selected three frost-hardy citrus varieties in southern Switzerland (Ticino):

Curafora Segentrange
Venasca Segentrange

Cunningham Citrange Clone Livurze

(Note: Segentrange = SEcond GENeration ciTRANGE)

He published a report on this in Fruit Gardener, April 1993 issue, entitled 'Three new "Hardy" Citrus Hybrids from Switzerland'










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BorisR

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2025, 12:57:35 AM »
usirius, thank you very much! I've been looking for this information for a long time!

usirius

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2025, 01:48:01 AM »
Hello Boris,

thank you for your feedback, you're welcome. Yes, this report is indeed very informative.

In a time before the internet (just imagine) and in a time in the 1950s and 60s when hardly anyone in Central Europe had thought about it, let alone attempted to carry out experiments and selective breeding with Poncius-Citrus hybrids, which were only bred as rootstocks in crop cultivation, for cultivation in temperate climates with severe winter frosts. With his commitment, Dr. Frey also achieved a certain breakthrough among citrus fans, awakening their curiosity to find out more. He strongly inspired people like Bernhard Voß, Andre Litwinski and others like me to continue on the path they had started. Bernhard Voß, with whom I worked together for many years, was himself also with Dr. Edwin Frey, and examined the now meter-tall "Hardy Citrus" from Switzerland, took material, and received addresses where one could view or obtain citrus material. He also visited the citrus arboretum himself, where he obtained a great deal of material, from which he then produced several through sowing, selection, and hybridization, which turned out to be quite interesting, such as N1Tri Voss, Poncirus x Changsha (HRS899) F2, which he named HRS899 A-Q, and also the Carolina Lime, and many more. Dr. Edwin Frey, with his interest in citrus and his worldwide botanical contacts, also inspired and "fertilized" the Otto Eisenhut nursery to propagate the material and thus make it available to a wider public, which in turn was inspired to continue searching for special citrus varieties and to spread them in Central Europe. In short, Dr. Edwin Frey can certainly be considered the initiator of interest in special citrus plants in Central Europe, and especially in frost-hardy citrus plants.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2025, 02:36:28 AM by usirius »
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BorisR

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2025, 04:03:37 AM »
Yes, I have often come across fragmentary information about Edwin Frey. I wanted to write a short note about him on my website, but there was almost no information. I tried to find out about him on the French forum (agrumes-passion, I think it's the largest forum in Europe), but they didn't give me any new information.

usirius

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2025, 06:33:30 AM »
I think that was a good idea you had, namely to write something about Dr. Frey. If you have any further questions or need information that I might be able to provide, please let me know. I had direct contact with him; he wrote me countless letters with very interesting and professional advice, and I visited him many times. After his death, his dear wife left me some of his books, including some on citrus. Can you send me the link to your website?
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bussone

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2025, 11:54:41 AM »
Dr. Edwin Frey, whom I knew personally and visited many times, selected three frost-hardy citrus varieties in southern Switzerland (Ticino):

Curafora Segentrange
Venasca Segentrange

Cunningham Citrange Clone Livurze

(Note: Segentrange = SEcond GENeration ciTRANGE)

He published a report on this in Fruit Gardener, April 1993 issue, entitled 'Three new "Hardy" Citrus Hybrids from Switzerland'











So that's why it's called a Sanford Curafora.

Florian

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #95 on: May 30, 2025, 05:23:19 PM »
Thanks Usurius. I once tried to find information about Dr. Frey but was unsuccessful. I didn't know you knew him.
He must have had an awful Yuzu since he found both Curafora and Livurce to be superior to his Yuzu..

I find it a bit sad that nowadays, it is hard to find any information about the origins of many hardy citrus varieties. I have been to Eisenhut nursery many times but when I ask Reto about a certain plant, he mostly just shrugs his shoulders and cannot provide any details.

Similar story with Bernhard Voss. I used to write him e-mails but hardly ever got an answer and when I met him at the Wiener Zitrustage he sold me a mislabeled Citrumelo 5star. It hasn't flowered yet but could be his hybrid Nr. 3.

tedburn

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2025, 01:51:32 AM »
Very interesting the story of Dr.Frey and his selections.
Especially because I'm a fan of Sanford Curafora and since 5 years in ground it
makes me a lot of pleasure with growth, overbording flowers and better fruits
than many hardy citrus hybrids.
Thanks Usirius for these interesting excerpt of the book.

usirius

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2025, 02:41:06 AM »
bussone, Florian and Tedburn, thank you for your feedback.

@bussone: The name Sanfrod Curafora is, of course, not entirely accurate. It would be better to call it Citrange Sanford F2 'Curafora' or, as Dr. Frey called it, Segentrange Curafora, although this name no longer includes the original Citrange Sanford.

@Florian: Yes, I knew him personally, visited him often, and we had an intensive correspondence on botany, citrus, and the breeding of frost-hardy citrus, among other things.

I also knew Senior Otto Eisenhut very well. He was inspired by Dr. Ewin Frey, both with knowledge and materials, to include citrus in his assortment in the 80s and 90s, after previously focusing on magnolias and camellias, which he bought from busloads of tourists in the spring.

Otto Eisenhut had high hopes that his son Reto would continue the nursery with the same passion. But Reto isn't a true plant expert, and since he took over the nursery completely after Otto's death, much has been neglected, there have been and continue to be confusion, and many things have disappeared from the program. Perhaps Reto is a bit overwhelmed by the prospect of continuing the nursery, or, as mentioned earlier, he lacks the necessary knowledge and passion, unlike his father, who was inspired by Dr. Edwin Frey during his time and was also a close friend. Dr. Edwin Frey died on August 30, 2000, at the age of 90 years.

As for Bernhard Voß, I think we can all relate. Nothing remains of his cooperation and enthusiasm for citrus. I don't even know if he's still involved in this area. I must also say that some of the things he wrote in literature and online were very optimistic, and there were disappointments because the frost resistance didn't turn out to be as good as claimed, and on top of that, the plants were much smaller than their parent plants. His focus these days is tree care, including everything that goes with it, and it seems that there's a lot more money to be made with that than with citrus, especially since citrus, albeit more standard varieties, are now available in any larger garden center and nursery, and sometimes even in supermarkets, in attractive sizes and at reasonable prices. Unfortunately, he can't or won't say anything more about botanically interesting and important things from his past active years, things he should still know, or things he should still have information about...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2025, 02:48:59 AM by usirius »
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Ilya11

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2025, 03:01:35 AM »


As for Bernhard Voß, I think we can all relate. Nothing remains of his cooperation and enthusiasm for citrus. I don't even know if he's still involved in this area. I must also say that some of the things he wrote in literature and online were very optimistic, and there were disappointments because the frost resistance didn't turn out to be as good as claimed, and on top of that, the plants were much smaller than their parent plants. His focus these days is tree care, including everything that goes with it, and it seems that there's a lot more money to be made with that than with citrus, especially since citrus, albeit more standard varieties, are now available in any larger garden center and nursery, and sometimes even in supermarkets, in attractive sizes and at reasonable prices. Unfortunately, he can't or won't say anything more about botanically interesting and important things from his past active years, things he should still know, or things he should still have information about...
Usirius,
I guess you are too tough on him. Bernhardt nursery  played an enormous role in reviving an interest in hardy citruses in Europe.
Personally, I'm very grateful to him for introducing me to this fantastic realm. Met him personally few times, bought my initial collection at the turn of  the century as well as his excellent book on hardy citrus.
Still communicate by messager, he has been very responsive.
His interest now is more in new prune hybrids, probably more pragmatic than citruses at 53N of Hamburg.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2025, 04:51:07 PM »
I think citrus growing is an exciting area and a real passion, but it is still an exotic niche, at least for the time being, as long as there is only halfway edible fruit. That will certainly change abruptly as soon as the first hardy varieties appear.
I think after many years it's easy to understand if other things become more important at some point. Bernhard once said to me that now, with the tree care, there is finally a reliable income, something that was very reassuring. I can well understand that. Bernhardt now maintains a citrus collection (the former Fabian collection) beside the tree care where there are many of his own varieties.
Thank you Usirius for the information about Dr Frey, this is the first time I can read any information about him.

All this preparatory work by these many people brings me once again to the thought that I have been thinking about for a long time
how to deal with the possibility of an edible hardy citrus?
How can this breeding work be secured without a few, big ones, taking the credit and, above all, the financial harvest?
I experience this problem with other fruit varieties and have already had my negative experiences.
There are so many of us and an invaluable amount of preparatory work has been done without which this breakthrough would not be possible. I think it would also make sense to secure this work through open source licences in the interests of open exchange and cooperation? https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/breeder-information
Would this be helpful?

 

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