Author Topic: Poncirus  (Read 3552 times)

Bomand

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Poncirus
« on: May 19, 2019, 08:59:02 PM »
In the woods this weekend I came upon a grove of poncirus. I spent some time looking for variations/mutations. Nothing of real intetest except part of the grove had large fruit. I know that this is an indication that these bloomed early. They were about six feet tall. I could not stand it...got my shovel out and dug up 4 of them, burlaped the roots and hauled them to the truck. Went home potted them in 25 gallon pots, fertilized and sprayed them good. Watered them down. The fruit will probably fall due to transplant shock but next year I should be flush with seed. I am certain that I have a problem....can not stand to leave it in the woods......

SoCal2warm

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 02:07:53 AM »
I wonder if it could be possible to cause genetic introgression into the naturalized poncirus genepool. Possibly by pollinating a few of the flowers with citrangequat pollen. You would think that over the long-term animals might select for the ones with better taste.

Bomand

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2019, 08:06:24 AM »
That might be a possibility. I have tried pollenating poncirus flowers with pllen from other citrus but have not left the blossom or fruit uncovered or left fruit on the tree to see that natrual selection by wildlife takes place. I think this would be a good test.

Bomand

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2019, 08:15:26 AM »
I did plant two kumquat trees in a grove of poncirus. As quick, and sometimes before the kumquats ripened the wildlife had their wY with them while the poncirus fruit remained untouched.....?????????

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 08:40:55 AM »
Nice thought, I thought about it too.
I think pollinating flowers in the wild is a gamble. Fruits taste the same and initially have no advantage.
It would be easier to plant a hybrid aside. More fruit, more chance of distribution by animals, perhaps cross-pollination, but it still takes generations.
Malus sieversii is said to have been developed by bears through natural selection. If so, then it still took thousands of years.

There might be already hybrids in nature. I've never been to the USA and I can't judge it. But I got seedlings from the wild when it was still legal. It turned out that they were hybrids.

Just a thought game:
I wonder whether the typical Poncirus taste could be advantageous in nature? If animals prefer citrus fruits, as you observe, there should be seedlings around citrus plantations (especially some time ago when seedless varieties were not so common). Not necessarily much, but there should be. If there are none, the seeds seem to have some disadvantage. Maybe animals eat the seeds with them.


Bomand

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 08:47:24 AM »
Some wildlife does eat the seeds. As a general rule....I find that not many species enjoy poncirus. They partake as a last resort. While many enjoy a good citrus and sometimes opt for citrus over other food sources.

Laaz

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 08:54:04 AM »
It would have to be a critter with no taste buds. The trifoliata that falls from my tree sprouts in clumps where the fruit fell in the fall, nothing will touch it. We have coons, possums & armadillos around & they never touch the poncirus. They will however eat the swingle fruit if I don't collect it quickly. The sweet citrus if left on the tree too long is first attacked by birds which peck holes in the  fruit. I have even witnessed humming birds feeding on hanging fruit.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2019, 09:02:28 AM »
The trifoliata that falls from my tree sprouts in clumps where the fruit fell in the fall, nothing will touch it. We have coons, possums & armadillos around & they never touch the poncirus.

This might be the advantage of Poncirus tastes.... when seen from the Poncirus point of view.

bussone

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2023, 04:43:12 PM »
This is maybe the dumbest question posted here, but...

Why is poncirus typically referred to as an orange? It seems like the general experience, once one avoids or dilutes the resinous flavors sufficiently, that what's left is primarily a slightly floral acid flavor that in taste and color seems for all the world to be a lemon. (Jam from the juice tastes like a blander Meyer lemon)

Sour oranges sort of have that trait too, with their juice, but their rind is extremely, inescapably, an orange. Poncirus doesn't have that excuse. Is that just historical convention, or is there some other basis?

pagnr

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2023, 06:55:47 PM »
Why is Poncirus referred to as an orange ?

Maybe to completely distinguish it, so there is absolutely no confusion with these others.

Osage Orange Maclura pomifera
Wild Bush Orange Cappiris canescens and Cappers mitchellii
Mock orange Philadelphus
Mock orange Murraya
Monkey orange Strychnos spinosa

poncirsguy

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2023, 08:12:53 PM »
I have an Osage orange across the street from me

pagnr

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2023, 10:33:33 PM »
I have an Osage orange across the street from me

It is interesting that there is a similarity to these Australian species,
Wild Bush Orange Cappiris canescens and Cappers mitchellii.
Both Osage orange and Cappiris linked to extinct Megafauna to distribute seed from hard fruits.
https://herbalistics.com.au/product/capparis-mitchellii-wild-orange-plant/
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 10:36:56 PM by pagnr »

gordonh1

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2023, 10:36:17 PM »
I guess many more people see it than taste its juice, and having a round fruit it resembles an orange tree more than anything else. I have heard it called "Bitter Lemon" by some.

Till

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2023, 01:23:38 PM »
I think "orange" fits well for Poncirus. I have let the juice stand for one night in an open glas, then threw away the bottom fraction and made lemonade from the rest of the juice. It tasted primarily orange-like, not like a lemon (by the way better than both).

I ask myself though how it happend that the overall bad taste of Poncirus developed. What was its evolutionary advantage? What kind of animals love exactly that taste? I have picked up somewhere that the taste is designed for antelopes. Can that be true?
Well, animals sometimes have a very different taste from ourselves. Rabbits like bitter meadow. Many animals eat conifers. ... It could also be that some animals that are ruminants find fresh poncirus fruits just acceptable but love the taste of fermented fruits - I mean when they eat them a second time (ruminated). As I wrote above the bad flavour of Poncirus vaporizes over night totally (in case of better tasting fruits) or at least largely (in case of bad tasting fruits). The chemical changes in a rumina will be much greater.

1rainman

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2023, 03:16:58 PM »
There's a grove of grapefruit crossed with some kind of sour orange hybrid I guess in Florida. The original wild grapefruit tree was huge a big shade tree better than a a average grapefruit. It created a grove of hybrids. The park chopped the original grapefruit and many fruiting hybrids. There's still a grove in one section but no fruit. Maybe the trees aren't old enough.

Outwardly they look similar to ugli fruit or maybe orange like. Orange flavored but close to a meyer lemon in bitterness. Edible but maybe similar to a grapefruit being tart. Barely edible unless sugar was added but no off flavors much better than poncirus.

They resist disease like hlb. So I'm guessing some sour orange is in the mix. I don't know. The grapefruit shouldn't be resistant but it seemed to be.

As a whole animals don't bother citrus because they can't peel it. Sour orange is so much better than poncirus in terms of edibility.

These ugly fruits are basically like sour oranges but not as sour. I assume they might be crossed with the older grapefruit because of the disfigured fruit usually is from such a hybridization but I could be wrong.

bussone

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2023, 04:02:25 PM »
I think "orange" fits well for Poncirus. I have let the juice stand for one night in an open glas, then threw away the bottom fraction and made lemonade from the rest of the juice. It tasted primarily orange-like, not like a lemon (by the way better than both).

I ask myself though how it happend that the overall bad taste of Poncirus developed. What was its evolutionary advantage? What kind of animals love exactly that taste? I have picked up somewhere that the taste is designed for antelopes. Can that be true?
Well, animals sometimes have a very different taste from ourselves. Rabbits like bitter meadow. Many animals eat conifers. ... It could also be that some animals that are ruminants find fresh poncirus fruits just acceptable but love the taste of fermented fruits - I mean when they eat them a second time (ruminated). As I wrote above the bad flavour of Poncirus vaporizes over night totally (in case of better tasting fruits) or at least largely (in case of bad tasting fruits). The chemical changes in a rumina will be much greater.

I have to believe that poncirus’ resinous mess is a byproduct of its hardiness, as it began climbing the mountains. I wonder if it, as well as the deciduousness, is also an anti-desiccant. As it climbed in elevation, humidity levels may have dropped, too. It could be a moisture-retention agent.

Citrus is mostly eaten by birds and tree-going mammals (including humans, by virtue of being primates).

pagnr

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2023, 04:04:29 PM »
In the woods this weekend I came upon a grove of poncirus. I spent some time looking for variations/mutations. Nothing of real intetest except part of the grove had large fruit.

In Australia, Citrus are mainly propagated from approved seed and budwood from AusCitrus. Poncirus trifoliata seed are from one particular strain in the scheme.
After finding an abandoned orchard, where the Poncirus rootstocks had taken over and fruited, I did notice a wide variety of fruit sizes on those trees, and some differences in the smooth /crinkly texture of the peel. Since the orchard was all the same variety of Citrus and about ten years old, I assume all the trees were planted at the same time from the same source. Conclusion, seedlings from one Poncirus tree can produce an array of fruit size variation.
It is likely the large fruited variants are exactly that.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2023, 03:59:20 AM »
A very strange choice by AusCitrus of using highly zygotic strain of poncirus for rootstock propagation.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

pagnr

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2023, 09:26:15 PM »
A very strange choice by AusCitrus of using highly zygotic strain of poncirus for rootstock propagation.

Now that you mention it, a large group of their Poncirus seedlings in the same pot media ( same pot ) have quite a range of autumn colours before leaf drop, some plants yellow, some orange some red. Another indication of the same variation ??


hardyvermont

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2023, 01:06:58 PM »
I think "orange" fits well for Poncirus. I have let the juice stand for one night in an open glas, then threw away the bottom fraction and made lemonade from the rest of the juice. It tasted primarily orange-like, not like a lemon (by the way better than both).

I ask myself though how it happend that the overall bad taste of Poncirus developed. What was its evolutionary advantage? What kind of animals love exactly that taste? I have picked up somewhere that the taste is designed for antelopes. Can that be true?
Well, animals sometimes have a very different taste from ourselves. Rabbits like bitter meadow. Many animals eat conifers. ... It could also be that some animals that are ruminants find fresh poncirus fruits just acceptable but love the taste of fermented fruits - I mean when they eat them a second time (ruminated). As I wrote above the bad flavour of Poncirus vaporizes over night totally (in case of better tasting fruits) or at least largely (in case of bad tasting fruits). The chemical changes in a rumina will be much greater.
Interesting speculation about antelopes Till.  Fruit needs to pass through the body and survive, or partially eaten and some seed survive.  .  Transport of seeds by animals is called zoochory. I can't find specific information about citrus zoochory.  Speculating on poncirus, especially with the large number of thorns, it doesn't want it's fruit to be eaten before the seed is ripe, thorns protect the fruit and the tree.  When the fruit are ripe, they drop to the ground and are more readily available.  The fruit resins which may keep the fruit from rotting degrade, and the fruit could become more palatable.  Some animals that eat citrus are rats, monkeys, red panda, some bird species. 

pagnr

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2023, 09:11:29 AM »
The Bitter tasting fruit could have multiple functions. It could repel some creatures that eat seed, or don't effectively disperse the seed, but attract others that disperse the seed. A lot of wild fruit are not palatable to humans, some are toxic, but consumed by other mammals and birds.

bussone

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2023, 01:27:16 PM »
The Bitter tasting fruit could have multiple functions. It could repel some creatures that eat seed, or don't effectively disperse the seed, but attract others that disperse the seed. A lot of wild fruit are not palatable to humans, some are toxic, but consumed by other mammals and birds.

The literature suggests citrus are consumed mostly by arboreal mammals (rodents, bats, primates) and frugivorous birds. There are some interesting overlaps between citrus's 'native' range and that of fruit bats.

I somewhat suspect citrus thorns are more to prevent megafauna (deer, elephants) from overly grazing upon the stems and leaves than they are to protect the fruit. Big thorns don't stop birds or small mammals. I'm curious whether citrus trees stop growing thorns at a certain height, like some trees do. (Once they get above how high their predators can graze)

\rodents and squirrels will of course eat nearly anything. They are basically tiny deer.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2023, 03:57:43 PM »
It would be interesting to know if Poncirus polyandra has the same fruit characteristic as trifoliata.
If so, the resinous fruits might not be related to winter hardiness. because polyandra is much less winter hardy than trifoliata.
This would raise the hope that one could breed out these characteristics and still retain a hardy plant.

bussone

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2023, 04:26:31 PM »
It would be interesting to know if Poncirus polyandra has the same fruit characteristic as trifoliata.
If so, the resinous fruits might not be related to winter hardiness. because polyandra is much less winter hardy than trifoliata.
This would raise the hope that one could breed out these characteristics and still retain a hardy plant.

It's not the cleanest article (there are some noteworthy typos), but...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0888754323000617

This suggests polyandra has cold-signaling genes and at least the potential for increased cold-hardiness relative to citrus. How much is unstated, and they never explicitly compare it to trifoliata.

Kunming is at about 6000 ft. I've seen it called zone 9b, but that seems contradictory given it snows there.

kumin

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Re: Poncirus
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2023, 05:12:56 PM »
The Bitter tasting fruit could have multiple functions. It could repel some creatures that eat seed, or don't effectively disperse the seed, but attract others that disperse the seed. A lot of wild fruit are not palatable to humans, some are toxic, but consumed by other mammals and birds.

The literature suggests citrus are consumed mostly by arboreal mammals (rodents, bats, primates) and frugivorous birds. There are some interesting overlaps between citrus's 'native' range and that of fruit bats.

I somewhat suspect citrus thorns are more to prevent megafauna (deer, elephants) from overly grazing upon the stems and leaves than they are to protect the fruit. Big thorns don't stop birds or small mammals. I'm curious whether citrus trees stop growing thorns at a certain height, like some trees do. (Once they get above how high their predators can graze)

\rodents and squirrels will of course eat nearly anything. They are basically tiny deer.
Poncirus thorns are most prominent on rapidly growing suckers and sprouts. They become much smaller higher in the fruiting canopy.