Author Topic: Is this a stupid question?  (Read 894 times)

waldi1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • Mexico, Guerrero, Zihuatanejo, 13b 17.60 N, 101.46W
    • View Profile
Is this a stupid question?
« on: September 11, 2021, 11:31:24 AM »
I wonder why a lot of tropical fruits are called APPLE in English like
CAIMITO   STAR APPLE
SARAMUYO  SUGAR APPLE
ANONA  CUSTARD APPLE
AEGLE MARMELO  WOOD APPLE
MANOLO VELVET APPLE
POMAROSA  ROSE APPLE
MARANON CASHEW APPLE
MANZANA MALAYA WATERAPPLE
 AND MORE LIKE ELEFANT APPLE,MONKEY APPLE ETC.

digigarden

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
    • Dominican Republic,Santo Domingo- zone 13
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2021, 12:19:10 PM »
they are simply "vulgar" or common names so that's how fruits are described to common people or even before scientific names were a thing...you see in different villages people will make up different names for fruits or other things.also because apple is the most common famous fruit from europe it was easy to use this word. we can see that for other types of fruits in america the natives used the word sapote that means soft edible fruit...but so many unrelated fruit now are known as sapote.

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2021, 09:40:45 PM »
English speakers were trying to describe things they had seen and eaten to someone who had never seen or tasted it before by using terms that the listener could understand. They used other fruits from Europe in their descriptions as well. For example, Prickly Pear, Natal Plum, Tropical Apricot, Sea Grape, Desert Peach, and Strawberry Tree. Apples were just the most common fruit, so it was the fall back when there was nothing at all close to compare to in Europe. Other cultures do it too. Actually, I am told that the Chinese name for Sugar Apple is "Foreign Lychee."

waldi1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • Mexico, Guerrero, Zihuatanejo, 13b 17.60 N, 101.46W
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2021, 10:57:52 PM »
Thanks both to you for you explenation

digigarden
Galatians522

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2021, 04:59:35 AM »
Lots of fruits from other countries took on the name of x apple, or y plum, or z cherry. Partly it's because people like to compare fruits with something they already know and are familiar with. But i think also partly it's due to laziness or lack of imagination. Most of those fruits don't look or taste anything like apple, plum, or cherry. Also having those names repeated in every common name adds to the confusion of what they really are referring to. This is a big part of the problem of common names.
I think your question is actually a very good question about common english names of fruits.
Oscar

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8694
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2021, 06:48:29 AM »
There is a bigger naming question at hand. England the home of the English language like much of Europe is very depauperate in diversity. When say the English went to places with myriads of trees fruits or fish species they often named these new species after those at home. Much more than the fruit you see the great barrier reef with 100s of species named trout, salmon, bass and the like for fish with no similarity to those of England. In the rainforests around here there are dozens of species named oak, maple, cedar and pine. So its like just fruit and a pineapple being a pine cone apple just doesnt work for me either but its ingrained now.

fruitnut1944

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 57
    • Alpine Texas
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2021, 09:24:58 AM »
How about a thread title like: Why are so many tropical fruits named apple?

Can you see how that might be helpful?

waldi1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • Mexico, Guerrero, Zihuatanejo, 13b 17.60 N, 101.46W
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 11:48:28 AM »
Tanks Oscar and Mike T for your insight view

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8694
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 09:23:41 PM »
We could have new threads dealing with all the plums and cherries in the tropical fruit world.

Victoria Ave

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
    • Riverside CA zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 11:17:53 PM »
Colonialism

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2021, 09:14:41 PM »
Marketing

swincher

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Western WA (zone 8b, zone 10a greenhouse)
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 07:29:49 PM »

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2021, 01:22:24 AM »
Although there is some discussion among experts, there seems to be a consensus that apples originally came from the far east (China) or at least central Asia and resulted as the hybrid of two Malus species that had substantially lower quality fruit. They migrated to Europe with the help of people and eventually became the most popular fruit there. In fact the word apple means "fruit" in the original English language. Now, thousands of years later we associate it with only one fruit, but in the original language it was just the generic word for fruit. This understanding clears things up quite a bit and the names make more sense when understood in that light. Thus, sugar apple originally meant "sugar fruit" etc.

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 03:50:45 AM »
Although there is some discussion among experts, there seems to be a consensus that apples originally came from the far east (China) or at least central Asia and resulted as the hybrid of two Malus species that had substantially lower quality fruit. They migrated to Europe with the help of people and eventually became the most popular fruit there. In fact the word apple means "fruit" in the original English language. Now, thousands of years later we associate it with only one fruit, but in the original language it was just the generic word for fruit. This understanding clears things up quite a bit and the names make more sense when understood in that light. Thus, sugar apple originally meant "sugar fruit" etc.
Interesting. Do you have a source for this information?
Oscar

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 07:53:16 AM »
I believe the original article that I read was in the American Fruit Grower Magazine. I can't remember the exact title, but is was at the back of the magazine and included a picture or two of some of the suspected progenitor species (at least one of which was native to China). They were hawthorne looking fruits and as I recall one was red and the other yellow. One was hard (crisp) and sour/bitter and the other soft (mealy) and sweet. The article mentioned how apples ended up with the better traits of both fruits. Since I can't find the original article here is another publication with a similar perspective.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190527094118.htm%23:~:text%3DSeveral%2520recent%2520genetic%2520studies%2520have,together%2520and%2520causing%2520their%2520hybridization.&ved=2ahUKEwj_l8_-7IXzAhXnRDABHaBYCR4QFnoECAMQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2jYa-ztrZXqMxnfnF5oe96&cshid=1631876628223

As for the origins of the name apple (and its original meaning as fruit in general), here is an excellent and thorough article on the topic.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://medium.com/the-philipendium/a-web-of-word-connections-apple-94f9e95ec0b6&ved=2ahUKEwiKx4bT8IXzAhUURjABHf3rCIEQFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw078bKobbsXuWFTiYNJNlC_&cshid=1631877885448

Also of interest in this article is the fact that the word Cashew comes from the original Tupi dialect. Persimmon, Saskatoon, and Chickisaw (plum) are also of Native American origins along with a slew of other fruit names for which the new commers had no conceivable parallel. People often try to associate unfamiliar things with what they know.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 05:24:37 PM by Galatians522 »

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2021, 01:01:45 AM »
I believe the original article that I read was in the American Fruit Grower Magazine. I can't remember the exact title, but is was at the back of the magazine and included a picture or two of some of the suspected progenitor species (at least one of which was native to China). They were hawthorne looking fruits and as I recall one was red and the other yellow. One was hard (crisp) and sour/bitter and the other soft (mealy) and sweet. The article mentioned how apples ended up with the better traits of both fruits. Since I can't find the original article here is another publication with a similar perspective.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190527094118.htm%23:~:text%3DSeveral%2520recent%2520genetic%2520studies%2520have,together%2520and%2520causing%2520their%2520hybridization.&ved=2ahUKEwj_l8_-7IXzAhXnRDABHaBYCR4QFnoECAMQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2jYa-ztrZXqMxnfnF5oe96&cshid=1631876628223

As for the origins of the name apple (and its original meaning as fruit in general), here is an excellent and thorough article on the topic.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://medium.com/the-philipendium/a-web-of-word-connections-apple-94f9e95ec0b6&ved=2ahUKEwiKx4bT8IXzAhUURjABHf3rCIEQFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw078bKobbsXuWFTiYNJNlC_&cshid=1631877885448

Also of interest in this article is the fact that the word Cashew comes from the original Tupi dialect. Persimmon, Saskatoon, and Chickisaw (plum) are also of Native American origins along with a slew of other fruit names for which the new commers had no conceivable parallel. People often try to associate unfamiliar things with what they know.
Thanks. Good references. Helps to explain a lot.
Oscar

shpaz

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • Florida/Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2021, 04:33:44 AM »
Its either apple or plum haha
A passion for things that grow
https://attar-sa.com/

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2021, 06:31:35 AM »
I want to thank Waldi1 for asking this question and also everyone who has commented on the thread. So often we accept and use names without thinking about what they actually mean or where they came from. Thinking through this has forced me to do research that really helped me to better understand not only the common names for fruits in English, but also some of the history of fruit collecting. Thanks!

driftwood

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 48
    • United States, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2021, 10:23:59 AM »
Ultimately it is for marketing. In order to get growers back home growing new fruits they had to have relatable names to the local customers. Most of the time it can be cleared up with scientific names. but sometimes even that adds confusion. The one that bugs me is that the Taino called Cassava "Yuca" ages before scientists took the word yuca and applied to a whole different genus of plants the yuccas.

It's also interesting the word annona comes from the Taino. The word "annon" was used for sugar apple. The words papaya and pawpaw were also taken from the arawaken language, their word "papaia" simply means fruit, and the spanish ran with it.

The funniest part is that even apples are not native to england  :o

etymology is fascinating
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 10:26:18 AM by driftwood »

waldi1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • Mexico, Guerrero, Zihuatanejo, 13b 17.60 N, 101.46W
    • View Profile
Re: Is this a stupid question?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2021, 06:34:58 PM »
Galatians 522
Thanks for you comments

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk