SoCal Mango Scions and Grafting

[Victoria Ave]

Hey all.

I am located in Riverside And am growing some Mango trees. I have a 6' tall Valencia Pride and a 9 foot tall Criollo seedling. Criollo seems to be a Mexican catch all for local mangos grown from seed and I dug it up from a friends house that was moving last fall and transplanted it into my yard. I was a little nervous because I didn't think I got enough of the root ball for it to be successful and it was moving from my friends sand yard ( a breeze to dig in) to my Clay yard. It has survived the winter un protected and got a bit scorched during the heat wave. In the past few weeks I have done a lot of reading and found my trees really need a lot more watering than I was providing (and I was providing water too inconsistently) I have set up a drip irrigation and timer and have automated the watering and ever since both my trees (and all my other fruit trees) have been putting on new growth and looking good. MY Valencia Pride had dropped all fruit from previous flowering, but luckily we had a cold spell and it flowered again and she appears to be holding fruit and putting on vegetative growth with the new watering schedule.

I was going to wait and graft the seedling next year, but with all the new growth I was thinking I would jump on it now. Is this advisable or should I wait a year?

Secondly, do any of you socal (Ie Local would be great) forum members have trees I could get some scions from I have no problems paying. I don't want to order from Florida.

Thirdly, how should I approach this, see the attached image and you can see this tree has an odd structure.

I was thinking I would just graft to the limbs available and then cut back the others after grafts have established themselves. Would I be better grafting lower then cutting off C and letting A and B grow out. It's weird because it's not the same structure I've seen in videos about top working.

Thanks a lot

[sapote]

Pics would be helpful.
Depending on how large the branches where you wanted to graft, there are a few different graft methods for this.

[Victoria Ave]

My mistake, I used Google drive to host the image and it only shows on my devices I'm logged into my Google account for some reason.

Hopefully this works

[UplanderCA]

Hello,

The tree does have an "odd" structure.  It's kind of sparse looking.  I would let it fill out some more and get at least a year on the ground to get use to the new environment.
I would wait another year and do the following:
1) clear out the greenery/weeds growing at the trunk base
2) fertilize to encourage growth - root and leaf (I use a 8-2-12 fertilizer with the additional micro-nutrients)
3) if the tree gets a lot of sun, you may want to consider painting the exposed trunk and branches.  It does get hot in Riverside.  I live in Upland about 15-20 minutes away.
I'm still learning after planting my first mango tree 8+ years ago.  I've killed a few mango trees...so you may want to hear from more experienced mango growers.  Hopefully they will chime in.

Tony

[Johnny Eat Fruit]

Why do you want a young mango tree like this holding fruit?  If you want any chance of success you should be focused on the root development and vegetative growth of your young tree. It needs to put on girth and foliage if you want long-term success. Do not graft for two years.

Flowering is not lucky in SoCal. It is a curse as it takes away from growth from a young mango tree.

Best to let your tree fill out and most importantly let the roots spread out. Hopefully, you planted your tree in sandy soil otherwise you will have slow growth in the heavier clay type soils so common in SoCal.

Johnny

[Seanny]

I would graft at A now.
The grafts won’t have shading problem now.

Next year B and C won’t flower so they would put out new leaves to grow the tree.
Trim B to reduce shading of grafts.
Tree could hold a few fruits from grafts.

Cut above A in 2-3 years when tree is bigger.

[Sandiegojane]

Check out and/or repost to the thread "Growing Mango trees in Southern California".  It has a lot of information.  You might want to "pug" the tree in your picture to get lower branching (you probably don't want your mangoes 10 ft off the ground), but I would ask the frequent posters in that thread (Simon, Spaugh, Oolie ...) for their opinion on when the best time of year is to do that and how high to cut it off.  They have a lot of experience grafting and top-working mango trees.

[simon_grow]

Sorry, I just saw this thread, have too many things going on right now.
Anyways, you’re probably not going to want to hear my recommendation but after top working many many trees that look like yours, I would remove all the lower branches and then chop off the top at 3-4 feet and then put a single or double modified cleft graft depending on the diameter of the remaining trunk after you top at 3-4 feet.

There will not be a single leaf left on your tree and I usually call it a “do or die” graft because your tree can absolutely die from this treatment. I don’t like the shape of that tree and the horizontal and weak growths are not good at all. If your grafts fail, there is a chance your tree will sprout new branches which you can graft later but I like to get things done SAP.

If you do as I suggested, you will need to white wash the trunk to protect it from sunburn. If the graft takes, the scion should grow fast and you’ll have a much better shaped tree with lower scaffold branches. I don’t like to graft anything below 3 feet now because the lower grafts tend to flower and fruit more precociously which is a bad thing. The low grafts also create fruit panicles which basically hang near ground level which makes it easier for animals to eat. Low grafts also don’t allow for you to easily weed and feed around the trunk and also inhibits air movement.

If you are new to grafting, I would recommend you ask or hire someone to do the grafting for you. With a successful graft following what I suggested, you will have an absolutely beautiful tree as long as you keep up with the maintenance which includes staking up the branches as vertical as possible and removing blooms/fruit at the appropriate time. I factored in your clay soil before deciding how I would work your tree if it were my own tree.

Simon

[sapote]

I would graft at A now.

Graft on those tiny horizontal branches will result a droopy unhealthy tree. I would follow Simon's suggestion.

OP, is the tree in a very hot no shade area? Young mango tree doing best with morning sun and  afternoon shade in hot SoCal summer.

[Victoria Ave]

Hi all, and thanks so much for the input.

After reading your inputs and looking at several videos and discussions I have cut the tree above a at about 4' tall. My Valencia pride Had a couple of scions which were beginning to swell and were in a lower spot on the tree that growth was not desirable. being new to grafting I figure I may as well practice with what I have so I attempted a bark graft. I cut about 6 inches above a node so if my graft fails I'm fairly confident the tree will grow new growth from this node and I can train it up and attempt cleft grafts on that next year or two. The tree was planted following the standard advice of Full Sun, but I have since learned that afternoon shade is better in socal heat but I'm not digging up the tree again. I'm removing concrete on the east side of my house to have topicals sheltered there in the future.

I figure I will remove the branches from A as I see new growth in either the scions or from the desired branching site, removing everything right now seems very drastic. Tree is now shaded from everything but morning sun unil growth gets established then I'll drop to a lower percent shade blocking fabric (Valencia Pride is Under 30% and seems quite happy). Wish me luck!

[Johnny Eat Fruit]

Over time I have found forming a strong central trunk for mango trees helps to provide strong branching and better wind protection. Here are some photos below as an example.

I select a strong growing mango seedling tree and remove all lower branching and form the tree about 48" from the ground with 2-4 main branches spreading out in a circular pattern to be evenly spaced. The main branches are few in number but form a strong frame to support fruit production. In the first photo, my three-year-old Lemon Zest mango tree has three main branches spreading out just over four feet off the ground. The second photo shows a more detailed view of this. In the last photo is my young Pineapple pleasure tree I grafted earlier this year to my ataulfo seedling. The cleft graft union on this PP is 48" from the bottom of the tree and the current flush is forming two main branches which are spreading out like a "V". This will form the structure for future growth. I always remove all of the lower branchings below 48" on my mango trees to force the energy and growth upward to where I want it to be. Hope this Helps.

Johnny



Lemon Zest Mango Tree (7-26-2021)


Lemon Zest Lower Rootstock Close-Up (7-26-21)


Pineapple Pleasure with New Flush Underway (7-26-21)

[Victoria Ave]

Those look great johnny. This rootstock is quite vigorous and the caliper near the bottom is about 3.5". I did the graft at about 4' and am hoping to let it grow and structure it a lot like your lemon zest.

Is the consensus that I should remove all lower branches now to try to force all growth in the scions?

[Johnny Eat Fruit]

In my opinion, you can keep the lower branches on your tree until the scions take and you get your first flush. Then I would remove all of the lower growth to force the vigor to the new scions.

Good Luck

Johnny

[Victoria Ave]

Perfect, that was my plan. Maybe once I get enough growth (next year) I could buy some scions from you (if you have some to spare). I have not tried lemon zest but it sounds like a winner!

[simon_grow]

Looking good so far! Please keep us updated on your progress.

Here’s a Lavern Manilla mango tree that I completely chopped off the top and grafted over with PPK. It’s starting to form a nice tree shape.




This tree is now entirely PPK

For Florida growers, it’s no big deal but here in SoCal, a lot of the mango trees get super droopy from the cold weather which induces blooms and fruit which weighs the branches down. It’s the precocity of our mangos, induced by the weather, that causes much of our trees to get droopy and exposes the horizontal branches to sunburn which lets infections set in.

Simon

[Victoria Ave]

Thanks Simon! I've learned a lot by reading and watching vids on how our climate is different and the different steps needed for growing. I can see how it would be very b nificial to tie these new growth scions up to promote some tough structural branches, I have experienced how heavy those constant blooms get and how they make the trees droop.

There are several mango trees around me that are 20'-30' tall and in full sun that produce tons of fruit, but they are all grown as seedlings and the fruit isn't great. I'm hoping to change a couple of those over if my grafting is successful

[sapote]

I figure I will remove the branches from A as I see new growth in either the scions or from the desired branching site, removing everything right now seems very drastic.

I would at least cut 1" terminal grow off all branches at A, and this force the tree to nurse the grafts and pushing new buds.

I think the grafted scions are a little too long. I think the tree will push out new buds on the main trunk but not on the scions. I hope I'm wrong and wish you good luck.
It is perfect for veneer graft on the trunk -- look for Walter Zill's graft technique.

[Victoria Ave]

I pinched off all the bids forming on A, but can see the benefit of removing the terminal ends forcing the hormone up to the grafts. I sure hope they take, but if they don't then maybe it is my opportunity to get scions of a different variety and try veneers. Thanks!

[Seanny]

Hormones flow down.
Nutrients flow up.

Your bark graft is at the apex of that branch.
There are no hormones to flow down, to limit your graft.
Your rootstock is huge so pinching things below the graft does nothing!

Good luck!

[UplanderCA]

Hello,
It maybe the photo quality but you may want to recheck the wrapping around the scion tips. It looks like you are using paraffin tape…which is fine.  If you wrapped the tip several times, it may prevent the buds from breaking thru.  I hope the grafts take and you are successful.
Tony

[Victoria Ave]

Hey Tony, thanks for the reply and the carful observation. I did wrap the tip several times so I had a water tight seal for the last one I wrapped from the tip down so it was one layer. I was going to ask if the growth would push through. I can see through the tape some drops of water and one bud slowly leafing out.

If the buds can't push through several layers at what point do I carefully snip?

Is there another material I should use for grafting or just one layer only?

Thanks!

[UplanderCA]

Hello,
It's normal to see some moisture build up between the scion and the grafting tape.  If the bud/leaves do not appear to be able to push thru the grafting tape, you can carefully snip and remove the tape to allow the leaves to push out.  This is a judgement call, post some pictures of the growth below the grafting tape if you think it needs some help.  The forum members will be able to provide additional guidance.  The paraffin grafting tape is fine to use for wrapping scions - I still use it myself.  I also use another product called Buddy Tape.   This product is a bit more expensive than most grafting tapes.  It's a lot more flexible, stretchable and easier to use.  For scion wrapping, I start at the tip of the scion, stretch the grafting tape, wrap a little (pulling the tape snuggly around the scion, and repeat (stretch, wrap, pull) until the scion is completely wrapped.  I only do one layer with a little over-lap on the edges (the grafting tape - both paraffin and Buddy Tape) will stick to itself. There are you-tube videos that show this method.  You want to make sure that you have solid contact between the scion and the rootstock.   For me, I will double or triple wrap the joint to make sure a solid contact is maintained at the scion and rootstock.  Note: both the paraffin grafting tape and Buddy tape will breakdown over time.  No need to remove them. 

Tony

[sapote]

I can see through the tape some drops of water and one bud slowly leafing out.

It was grafted on 7/27/21 and so it's only 4 days and if you see a bud starts leafing out the that bud was too advanced for grafting, which would push out early then fall off because the graft has not bonded to the rootstock and cannot nurse the leaves.

[Victoria Ave]

Yeah, I was worried that may be the case. On other scions I see the buds which are swollen but haven't pushed yet, so here is hoping!

[Victoria Ave]

Hi all, as a follow up it has been 12 days since I grafted.

A bid on one scion I can see appears to be leafing out (not the one that was too far advanced to graft). What was a swelling bud that I have kept an eye on has been a spreading bright green spot, I believe this is due to growth. The concern is I may have applied the grafting tape (parafin tape) with too much overlap that the scions may not grow through.

Should I carefully cut away the tape around the bud end? Or see if it grows through.

I figure if it isn't fully pushing I could put a plastic bag and secure with rubber bands over the whole end and scions but it is entirely possible I am overthinking this

[Victoria Ave]

Also, the node above which I cut is pushing buds to branch out as desired if these grafts fail. Is the root stock pushing new growth a good sign for the scion as it may push too?

Thank you

[UplanderCA]

As a general rule, new growth on the root stock near the  graft would siphon energy and nutrients away from the graft.  Can you post a  photo of the growth?  It does appear that you may have used too much paraffin tape on the scion tip.  I would give the graft a little more time to heal before removing the tape from the scion tip...(my opinion only).  If you could send clearer photos of the new growth below the tape, it would be more helpful.

Tony

[Victoria Ave]

Well Tony, this morning I saw the green spots developing more under the tape and it was looking crowded so I carefully snipped the tape away. At the tip I had wrapped it with three layers of tape.

This revealed the buds pushing on the scion. The growth on the rest of the root stock is at the same stage as the scion, buds swelling and little leaves forming. Within a week or so I should have lots of flushes and am hoping this scion keeps pace with the rest.

I placed a plastic bag which had water sprayed in it over the scions and secured the end to the root stock with garden tape to keep the humidity up and allow for easy observation. So here's hoping.

[UplanderCA]

Those buds look pretty good.  They should be leafing out very soon.  Hopefully, the other scions start pushing soon.  Don't forget to post updates every few weeks.

Tony

[Victoria Ave]

4 week from graft update. One scion is pushing. I removed the plastic bag. Another scion is still green with bud swelling and the other is still green with no visible action under the tape. I removed a few more of the lower branches. And plan after this flush to remove all limbs below. A couple shoots from the root stock are growing as planned from below the cut. I will allow these to grow and if the other scions do not take the. I will graft them next year.

Does the thinning as I laid out sound like a good plan? Overall I am pretty happy with how my first grafting experience is going.

[sapote]

A couple shoots from the root stock are growing as planned from below the cut. I will allow these to grow and if the other scions do not take the. I will graft them next year.

first, congratulations on the successful graft! The new growth on the scion looks good. I would remove all of the new shoots below the graft for the tree to push the scion. If the scions died then the tree will sure send out new shoots below the graft line.

[Victoria Ave]

Thanks! Today I removed all the branches and shoots below the graft except one. I was going to let this shoot develop and graft to it, or should I just go all on on the scion? The scion had three shoots developing which I suppose I could structure the tree off and one scion which is still green and firm and may develop as well.

[sapote]

Oh well, the scions and graft is just an exercise for you with not much value as compared to the shoot below it, but to ensure the scion with higher chances of survive I would remove all shoots.

[Johnny Eat Fruit]

If your rootstock is strong and healthy and the root system of your mango tree is robust then I would allow 3-4 shoots to form just below your graft and let the shoots grow this year (2021) for grafting in 2022. A strong tree can easily support multiple young shoots and a young graft.

If the mango tree is young with a weak or immature root system then I would remove all growth below the graft and focus the tree's resources toward the new graft only. Each situation is different and this largely depends on the quality and vigor of the mango rootstock that is used. You have to use your best judgment to determine that.

Removing the lower branches was good since those were essentially suckers taking away growth and vigor from the upper branching.

Johnny

[Victoria Ave]

Thanks for the input guys! I'm hoping with the weather warming up again I'll get a few flushes and see what happens. I will leave the one shoot I have now for grafting next year.

I'm wondering if it would be worth making it a coktail tree with different varieties. Is this a successful practice in SoCal, or does it end up being too demanding on the tree?

[sapote]

Thanks for the input guys! I'm hoping with the weather warming up again I'll get a few flushes and see what happens. I will leave the one shoot I have now for grafting next year.

I'm wondering if it would be worth making it a coktail tree with different varieties. Is this a successful practice in SoCal, or does it end up being too demanding on the tree?

This is the Criollo seedling and not the grafted Valencia?
Most of my trees are cocktail with multiple varieties. The important point is that all the varieties should have similar growth vigorousness -- vigorous Lemon Zest will kill compact Himam Pasand, as an example.

[Victoria Ave]

Yes, this is the Criollo seedling which I have grafted the Valencia pride on to. I'm interested in seeing if the grafted Valencia pride on this rootstock will out perform the Valencia pride on Florida rootstock.

But I have not got to try too many different mango types and would really like another variety grafted on to the Criollo rootstock. Lemon zest and sweet tart seem to be great options

[Victoria Ave]

6 week update. New shoots are forming below the graft and I selectively leaving 3 of them for future grafting/ making a cocktail tree. The new growth I Selecting are at staggered intervals along the trunk instead from the same node, which I've read makes for a stronger structure.

The scion leaves were looking pretty rough but i discovered that the angle of my shade cloth was allowing the leaves to get blasted with mid day sun. I adjusted about a week ago and camr home to find that they are going for a new flush. Hoping for healthier leaves.

And as a bonus my super late Valencia pride developing on my Valencia pride tree which provided the bud wood.

Since this topic is mostly geared towards socal growing I'm wondering if any of you socal guys would be able to help me aquire good tasting poly seeds (lemon zest, sweetart, NDM) etc. Willing to pay of course, but would like to grow a strong seedling into a performing, non grafted tree.

Thanks!
 

[Lovetoplant]

Thanks for the input guys! I'm hoping with the weather warming up again I'll get a few flushes and see what happens. I will leave the one shoot I have now for grafting next year.

I'm wondering if it would be worth making it a coktail tree with different varieties. Is this a successful practice in SoCal, or does it end up being too demanding on the tree?

This is the Criollo seedling and not the grafted Valencia?
Most of my trees are cocktail with multiple varieties. The important point is that all the varieties should have similar growth vigorousness -- vigorous Lemon Zest will kill compact Himam Pasand, as an example.

Sapote:  I just grafted PPK, PSM, and Kiew Savoy on to a Manila.  PPK is being on the top.  PSM is side grafted in the middle of the trunk and Kiew is side grafted at the lowest(grafted on the trunk as well).

Are theses varieties share same growth vigorousness?

PPK and Kiew scions each push (2) 5inches new growth at the crown locations.  PSM only flushes (1) 1inch of new growth on its side not at the crow.

[sapote]

6 week update. New shoots are forming below the graft and I selectively leaving 3 of them for future grafting/ making a cocktail tree.

So one scion survives and two died?

[Victoria Ave]

Yes, only one scion survived. It was the thickest of the three ( pencil thickness) and had the best buds on it. The other two were probably not developed enough or pushing too much to graft successfully. I just grabbed the scions and yanked them firmly away from the tape holding the graft together as I was worried about mold and infection.

The one graft shot out three sprouts but two are out competing the one and I'm considering pinching it off

I am also curious what varieties would work best with Valencia pride for a cocktail tree

[yuzr]

removing blooms/fruit at the appropriate time

What would be a rule of thumb for "appropriate time" ?

rootstock is huge so pinching things below the graft does nothing

Please explain.

[Seanny]

rootstock is huge so pinching things below the graft does nothing

Please explain.

Apical dominance is the release of hormones from tip of branch.
Hormones flow down the branch to inhibit new shoots below.
When I graft using cleft, or bark graft like above, I cut off the tip.
There is no longer any apical dominance so the scion is free to grow new shoots.

Why would I need to cut off branches below?
How do I multi graft a tree at different times if I have cut off old grafts to get new grafts? Ridiculous!

My mango tree is holding fruits.
I don’t remove any fruits nor any leaves nor any branches to graft another variety.
Graft is about to send out new shoots the 2nd time.

If you graft pencil sized rootstock, you need to remove new water shoots.
Otherwise, do nothing.



Mango tree with a branch 1” below cleft graft.
There is another branch lower on the left.
See new shoot from scion?





Atemoya scion on soursop rootstock.
Nothing removed below the cleft graft.

[sapote]

Apical dominance is the release of hormones from tip of branch.
Hormones flow down the branch to inhibit new shoots below.
When I graft using cleft, or bark graft like above, I cut off the tip.
There is no longer any apical dominance so the scion is free to grow new shoots.

Why would I need to cut off branches below?
How do I multi graft a tree at different times if I have cut off old grafts to get new grafts? Ridiculous!

My mango tree is holding fruits.
I don’t remove any fruits nor any leaves nor any branches to graft another variety.
Graft is about to send out new shoots the 2nd time.

If you graft pencil sized rootstock, you need to remove new water shoots.
Otherwise, do nothing.



Mango tree with a branch 1” below cleft graft.
There is another branch lower on the left.
See new shoot from scion?





Atemoya scion on soursop rootstock.
Nothing removed below the cleft graft.

"Apical dominance is the release of hormones from tip of branch.
Hormones flow down the branch to inhibit new shoots below."
But since the new graft hasn't taken yet, then there is no or little hormones flow down to inhibit the new shoots that the root stock wants to push out. I think remove all new shoots below the graft is helping the graft to push its new grow.

"Why would I need to cut off branches below?"
An established branch with no new grow is different than a new shoot in how they may affect the new graft above them, I think.

"My mango tree is holding fruits.
I don’t remove any fruits nor any leaves nor any branches to graft another variety."
Hmm, I sure don't see new grow while the tree holding many fruits. But as soon as the fruits were picked off clean, then we started seeing new grows pushing. So I think a tree without any fruits will help the graft pushing new grow, as compared to a tree with many fruits.

"Atemoya scion on soursop rootstock.
Nothing removed below the cleft graft."
They are established branches and not new shoots below the new graft, and I think the difference is important to know.

[Seanny]

Grafted mid June on a non-fruiting branch on a tree holding fruits.

My point is

No need to hack your tree to make a good graft.