The Tropical Fruit Forum

This tree gave me a lot of heartache back in the day. Several seed purchases & some unintentional sabotage before I had any success growing it. Come to find out the tree grows feral here and is very common. I’ve tasted fruit from several trees, red, pink, yellow, and they all tasted the same to me. The pulp is agreeable, plain, sweet and mushy bordering on juicy. The alleged “cotton candy” flavor is in the skin.

The thing is… While I can see the resemblance to cotton candy “if I squint”, I don’t actually find this flavor appealing (and despite the mild resemblance, I love actual cotton candy). It’s vaguely reminiscent, but it just boils down to the skin’s aftertaste and how it interacts with the pulp’s sweetness. While not tough by any stretch of the imagination, I would consider the skin thicker and more objectionable than a grape skin (not quite apple-level, but close). Between the skin’s thickness and the lack of appeal its aftertaste has for me, I prefer to pop the pulp into my mouth and discard the skin.

The collector in me demands I eventually grow one, as an afterthought, if I ever get the space for an orchard. But the practical me insists I not bother with it, as I’ll likely let the fruit go to waste even if I do grow it. Is it overrated? Maybe. A lot of people seem to like it, so folks with my taste are probably in the minority. As far as I can tell (and despite my initial challenges), it’s easy to grow, easy to propagate, and easy to find for cheap if you know where to look, as seeds and as plants. It won’t take much to grow it, and is a fast fruiter, so if anyone’s interested, I’d say give it a shot. If you don’t end up liking it, you could always get rid of it and replace it with something better.

I could not yell the difference in taste of red and scarlet. Plants look different but fruit are very similar size, color and taste.
If i could grow muscadine grapes, i would prefer them since jabos seeds are larger and hard to separate from pulp.

Do Muscadines not do well in Florida? I’ve seen a few varieties on some online nurseries and have been tempted to get some, but I haven’t yet... my yard’s not well set up to handle vines.

The only jaboticaba I was really taken back with in flavor was the mozies. Iv tried quite a few different varieties and they do all have a somewhat common flavor, but the mozies tastes like a sweeter passionfruit easily my favorite jaboticaba!

That sounds intriguing! Which are the mozies?

I was looking through Marta’s stock of scions wondering which varieties to try grafting on my seedlings next year, and I cross-referenced her blog posts and videos on the subject in search of the best. I was left with a seemingly decent summary of her cultivar evaluations, so I figured I might as well post it here. She’s currently out of stock, but the website still lists her varieties as placeholders (specifically the second section from the bottom, for White Sapote):

https://reallygoodplants.com/

Several of the blog and video links are posted redundantly on that list, so I’ll post the lot here, the screenshots of the relevant portions (the varietal taste profiles), and then I’ll post my synthesis. Excuse any formatting issues, I’m on mobile.

Blogs:

1. http://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2021/11/a-tasting-of-ten-white-sapote-cultivars.html

2. http://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2021/11/early-white-sapote-cultivars.html

3. https://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2021/12/white-sapotes-vernon-suebelle-and-lemon.html

4. http://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2020/12/white-sapote-cv-vernon.html

5. http://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2020/11/white-sapote-cultivar-fisch.html

6. http://fruitsandgardening.blogspot.com/2024/02/white-sapote-golden-globe.html

Videos:

1. Cocha - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRsY9FHRE_4

2. Cocha - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kwQ9WrzAzHc

3. Cuccio & Leroy https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qPwv4xPaFqA

4. Delta Gold - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_LO74TlbU4s

5. Fisch - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qhb1MT0itAI

6. Fournoy & Fisch - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9BsdOCcITfo

7. Michele - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRFgmRpr0H8

8. Malibu #1 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tyCkmE2Cnn8

Relevant screenshots from the blogs:


Some of those screenshots are basically the whole, short post, others the “variety” sections of longer posts, but it was easier for me to flip between photos than web pages when comparing info.

Note: it occured to me while posting to include this FYI: I compiled all this “by hand”, so to speak, no ai, no gpt. I have a habit of using certain glyphs (like –, and ⁂), but that’s all me.

So, here’s the synthesis:

BS = Bitter Skin.
ES = Edible Skin.

Redland – Very unpleasant medicinal flavor.

Cocha – ES, softest & juiciest, sweet, pear-like citrusy flavor.

Cuccio – ES, intense complex flavor, spicy, sweet creamy caramel with very interesting acidity.

Delta Gold (Harvey B3) – Thick ES, excellent fruit, very sweet creamy & custardy, intense caramel flavor, citrusy note.

Fisch – Thin ES (1 video & blog) or BS (1 video... ¿mistake?), excellent fruit, different from most white sapotes, flesh doesn’t macerate when overripe, dense, very soft flesh, creamy, very sweet, juicy, citrusy, very nice flavor.

Fournoy – ¿Thin ES?, pretty good, sweet, soft-fleshed, caramelly flavor.

Malibu #1 – BS, very sweet, caramelly, dense flesh.

Vernon – ES that is insignificant but peelable, very creamy caramel/milk flavored, mild, soft, very nice.

Lemon Gold – BS, denser & more intense than Vernon, creamy, sweet caramel, hint of lemon, very nice.

False Suebelle – ES, very soft sweet melting flesh, hint of acidity

Suebelle – ES, slightly unpleasant funk, flavor merely ok.

Golden Globe – ES, very sweet, creamy, excellent-tasting fruit with caramel notes; fast-growing vigorous tree.

4H4 – Thin BS, excellent & complex flavor, very sweet, caramel-flavored with hint of acidity.

Walton – ES, excellent and intense, sweet, custardy, baked milk flavored.

Malibu #3 – ES, excellent, intense, very sweet & creamy.

Rainbow – ES, excellent, firm flesh, very sweet, caramel flavored.

Santa Cruz – Thin BS, very soft melting flesh, sweet & creamy.

Fiesta – BS, soft melting flesh, not particularly sweet.

3C2 – BS, firm & very creamy flesh, intense and sweet but somewhat bitter flavor.

Michele – Thin skin, soft melting flesh, sweet caramelly flavor.

⁂

Seems like caramel is a common descriptor, but though obviously associated, I don’t think it’s meant to be synonymous with sweet. Creamy seems frequent as well, but some of her descriptions gave me the impression that “creamy” was a texture, and others gave the impression that it was a flavor. Texture ranged from firm and custardy to soft and melting, and some were described as intense while others were stated or implied (seemingly) to be mild. Fisch seemed interesting, but its second video (the comparison with Fournoy) called the skin bitter, in contrast with the prior evaluation; I’m not sure if there was a mistake somewhere (thus, additionally, my ambivalence with Fournoy) or if it’s simply a variable fruit, but I’m keeping clear of the variety until I’m sure of what I’m getting.

I don’t know how accurate this is to most people’s perceptions, but it does reflect her own palate, so I’m taking this info at face value for my selection process. Judging from her evaluation, I’ll choose two varieties to graft on my seedlings. My top pics are “Delta Gold” and “Golden Globe”, with the runners up (alternatives in case the tops are unavailable) being “Cuccio”, “Malibu #3”, “Rainbow” and “Cocha”. “Walton” seemed appealing, a top choice for runner up, but it’s not listed on her website, so I’ll disregard it for now. With any luck, I might get my hands on all these top pics, in time.

Here’s my roughly 1 year old pair of saplings, from Trade Winds Fruit seeds. Currently in 2 gallon pots, with their speed of growth, they’d be much bigger if I hadn’t stunted them for a few months in one gallon pots. Now they’re ready for up-potting again (I’ll actually be putting them straight in the ground). Growth exploded when I fertilized them, and again when I up-potted them. Fast, vigorous, tough. The slow-burn was waiting for them to sprout, then waiting for them to grow past the vulnerable seedling stage. All of that done in full searing sun, it seems to be a pattern that tiny seeds need full sun to sprout.

This is also know as the African Peach. Joe Hewitt is growing a huge selection of these in Hawaii. Check out Virginia Fruit Growers video tour of his collection. Joe says they are extremely variable from seed.

Part 1:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlicns5ebFs

A huge selection? Is he posting about them somewhere? I’m curious about the kind of variability the fruits display. Makes me wanna get more seed from more places. I’ve read a couple of sources mentioning mild bitterness, but even if it’s not objectionable I hope that’s not a universal trait.

I have one seedling of Lacmellea acuneata (is that a typo I wonder?), two of L. oblongata and 4 of L. edulis. I’m sure the latter two have their pollination requirements covered by the extras, but I’m wondering how acuneata will fare without a partner... I hadn’t intended on getting a second one, so if things proceed as they are, it’ll either stay fruitless, self pollinate, or crossbreed with the other two.

I have multiple potted saplings of of Carissa macrocarpa (excellent germination rate on the first try), so I’m not worried about fruiting it. I just placed an order for C. carandas, C. spinarum and C. tetramera, so there may be options for some crossbreeding there. It seems to be a well-regarded yet underutilized genus in general. I wanted C. bispinosa, but it wasn’t available.

Next I have my sights set on Couma. Gotta check in with Colombo to see when he’ll have it available again. If I can get multiple of it, I may try Hancornia to graft on some of them.

Forgive the necro & multi post, I’m hoping to reach all the folks who’ve posted here about this species.

Has anyone tried grafting their seedling Hancornia to a seedling Couma? They seem quite closely related... if successful, I think that might be the best bet to get Mangaba growing beyond Cerrado conditions.

I’ll try it out. Should it be a fruiting branch or a bare one?

Glad to see others trying their hand at this one. I lost my last tree a few months ago, not sure if it was the excess rain at the time, or the thorough drainage of its soil.

I forgot they were called that, tbh. 

I called them Pitangas for most of my post, but there’s an actual E. pitanga, so perhaps I just confused things further.

I’ve had Surinam Cherries from a Lolita seedling, and while I can enjoy them, I did find the resinous factor a bit too funky for my palate. My options for resin-free cherries were to get a grafted Zill Dark or Black Star, or seeds of dasyblasta... I prefer growing from seed in this case, so I went with the dasyblastas, and currently have 6 plants in 1 gallon pots.

always worth a try but would take quite a while to see the outcomes as you would need a fair bit of space to plant out all the seedlings and grow them to fruiting size.

on another note i saw a photo of soursop hybrid recently. cant remember where i saw it but i think it was a sugar apple/soursop hybrid. it was pretty cool.

I’m still working on getting some land, but this feels like one of the projects I wanna start with when I get it.

It’d be wonderful if we could get soursop into the equation, since it has a wonderful perfumed flavor, but it seems like getting it to cross with the other three is a bit of a challenge... not sure if a four-part cross would be worse, challenge-wise. Do you know who’s growing that hybrid? I’d love to buy some scions, if it takes well to grafting.

As a Floridian, who can’t easily fruit  Cherimoya here in our summer heat, I’d welcome more diversity in cherimoya-adjacent Annonas. I read that the Cherimoya variety called White (Dr White?) is the most heat tolerant, according to this report: https://slosson.ucdavis.edu/newsletters/Ellstrand_198629140.pdf

Regardless If you expand beyond the “big three” to the “big 5”… the qualities of Illama and Rollinia seem more sought after than Custard Apples. The former have a significant fan base, but i don’t think I’ve heard anyone say custard apple is their favorite fruit or even beats out with other annonas. As you alluded to.But getting those others to hybridize is a challenge or impossibility.

Dr. White is my top pick for that reason, though I read on another post that Cumbe was being grown by someone in the Dominican Republic lowlands. Even with these two clones (or their seedlings for that matter), I’d like to trial seeds from other varieties as well, just to see how they do for me. I wonder, would growing them like Pawpaw as an understory plant be a workable solution to getting them to fruit in warmer places? I imagine, with the decades of research behind Cherimoya growing, almost every possible solution to that dilemma would’ve been exhausted.

Those two were considered (along with some rarer species), but I’m not finding much info on their use in Annona breeding programs. Ilama in particular seems like it might be close enough to the other three to be crossable. Has anyone made any Ilama hybrids, or are they still theoretical? As for Rollinia, I’m aware of one fruitful hybrid with Soursop, and apparently the fruit resembled Rollinia in particular:
https://www.actahort.org/books/575/575_41.htm

Custard Apple is my Mama’s favorite fruit by far, beating out even Sugar Apple in her opinion... but again, we’ve never had Cherimoya nor Atemoya, nor Rollinia & Ilama for that matter.

I find this to be a very interesting project as someone who at one time was very into Annona collecting.

I would say in terms of flavor it ranks as
1. Cherimoya
then a very distant 2 and 3
2. Sugar Apple
3. Custard Apple(never had one)

There is another component besides flavor that is rarely talked before but much more now is the texture.  This is extremely important depending on your palate.  It is firmness/chewy vs creamy.  Most western palate will prefer a more creamy texture and most asian palate will prefer firm chewy texture.  I feel likes its almost as a do you eat peaches soft and melting or firm and crispy as an analogy.  I will list from most firm as 1.
1. Sugar Apple
2. Cherimoya
3. Custard Apple

In addition, in Asia the sugar apple is broken down into another 2 groups. One is considered the firm chewy Sugar Apple, usually very easy to peel, and the flesh holds together tightly. The other is sometimes referred to as a grain or rice Sugar Apple since the flesh around carpels break apart easily like grains. These tend to be more creamy if u really let the fruit ripen but also is chewy for the flesh around the seed. I believe most of the old florida varieties of sugar apple fall into this category. And most of the old Atemoya crosses used this strain of sugar apple. Depending on what texture u r breeding one will benefit more than the other.  For cherimoyas, i think varieties that has a more subacid balance is better so ones like Booth or El Bumpo vs say a Dr. White. For the old school Atemoyas, i think Geffner has more Cherimoya qualities than say an African Pride.

My perfect Annona would have the flavor of a cherimoya, the texture of a Chewy Sugar Apple, and the skin and flesh color of a deep red reticulata.  For others texture may prefer the cherimoya or reticulata.  I'll stop here as i could probably write about tastes and texture all day long on fhis topic ahaha.  Hope to see some amazing hybrids from people in the future. Painter's cherilata is new and there may some interesting seedings out if it in the future here in California due to our availibity of cherimoya and atemoya varieties.

That’s how I remember Sugar Apple! Kinda creamy on the edges, firmer in the arils. It’s been a while since my last sample.

How would Cumbe stack up in the acidity balance? Are there any named Sugar and Custard Apples that would particularly shine in a potential hybrid?

@achetadomestica has a Sugarlata that sounds like an amazing fruit combining some of the aforementioned desirable qualities. I wonder if they know the exact parentage?

I got some seeds from him, both Sugarlata and Cherilata. I’m debating whether to grow them out to fruiting or use them as rootstock. I’m actually quite curious as to how the fruits will turn out, so maybe rootstock isn’t the best choice. I also got Red Thai Sugar Apple seeds from him. If he’s growing them in proximity to each other, I wonder what the chances are that some of the seeds are already hybrid? Hmm...

I’m talking here about the three major species of Annona (barring Soursop): Sugar Apple (A. squamosa), Custard Apple (A. reticulata), and Cherimoya (A. cherimola). They are the most widely grown of their genus, and closely related to each other. *(Soursop is a little too distant to allow crossing or grafting with the other three, and is most commonly eaten as an ingredient – like in shakes or ice pops – whereas the other three are usually eaten out of hand.)

As far as I can tell from my time on this forum, most folks seem to rate seedling trees of the big 3 as follows: 1. Cherimoya (best), 2. Sugar Apple (good but seedy), 3. Custard Apple (least, perhaps due to grittiness). That’s for seedling trees... For elite clones and grafted trees of the 3 species (and their hybrids), I still don’t know how folks rate them compared to each other (I only know that Cherimoya and Atemoya are some of the most prized Annonas). I’d like to hear some opinions from people who’ve tasted these Annonas (not necessarily all of them), what they think about them, and how the flavors compare. As for myself, I like Sugar Apple, I don’t remember the taste of Custard Apple (it’s been a long time), and I’ve never tasted Cherimoya or Atemoya.

As for the query that inspired this post, I’m interested in crossbreeding them. Folks have been crossing Cherimoya and Sugar Apples for years, named selections abound for Atemoya. (Side note: ¿Are all named Atemoyas F1 hybrids, or are there F2s & backcrosses among them?). I recently learned that Sugarlatas and Cherilatas are a thing, which account for the other combinations among the 3. But my endgame is the Trybrid... apparently Temoylatas weren’t well-received at the start, but have since found fans among the few people who’ve managed to grow the grafts to fruiting.

Being a tripartite hybrid, any hybrid that manages to include all 3 species in their parent stock is gonna be an uneven hybrid by nature. 25+25+50 in percentages. Which get me thinking... Is there a particular “trybrid” combination that would yield better results than the others? So far we’ve seen the Temoylata (25% each Cherimoya & Sugar Apple, 50% Custard Apple). What about crossing the Cherilata with the Sugar Apple? If the initial rating scheme I mentioned for the seedlings holds true with the hybrids, then we would want the best species to account for the 50% in the “trybrid”: crossing the Cherimoya with the Sugarlata.

These are the types of thoughts that wind me down to sleep at night. I’d like to hear (¿read?) from the rest of you folks. Is it a project worth pursuing?

I have a young reticulata tree in my yard, and am sprouting some squamosas. All I’d need is to get one of the more heat-tolerant cherimola, maybe some hybrid scions, and I’d be on my way to trying it out.

I think I got scammed. I received a pm from a “user” that apparently doesn’t have an account (listed as “guest” under the username, which I didn’t notice at the time). Told me about another user that apparently had the giant moss available, with an email address.

I messaged him, then purchased from him a couple of weeks ago. He seemed a bit rushed to get me to complete the purchase (and show screenshots of payment), even reduced the price from $35 to $20. I had to pay via PayPal’s “friends and family” setting for immediacy. Said he’d email me the shipping details. Haven’t heard from him since, despite emailing back a couple of times.