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Messages - dytandme

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1
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Crispy Honey Kumquat - Lunar New Year
« on: June 18, 2025, 09:55:52 AM »
Clay is an interesting choice for packing citrus roots.

The roots were so densely packed in the clay washing it out without damaging them was darn near impossible so I left a bit of it in there. I think the clay was intentional choice based on an expectation of a lot of in-box hold time, but who knows, the root patterning actually looked like it could have been growing in a large clay plug all along...

I will update again once it's filled in. Hopefully we see some flower buds popping by next month.

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Citrus General Discussion / Re: Crispy Honey Kumquat - Lunar New Year
« on: June 17, 2025, 01:03:06 PM »
How's it looking now?

It appears to be doing okay for being trimmed back to a nub. The freshly sprouted branch diameter looks robust for only being a month old, the leaves look pretty thick and green for not being full size yet. Hopefully those in the know can ID it as it fills in.

As for care, it's been left out in 6.5hours of direct sun per day with afternoon and evening shade in a 1g pot filled with mostly promix, some of the clay it came packed in, and a little sand. (Use what ya got!) It's been quite rainy so I have not needed to water it yet. That said, I did give it a tiny bit of watered down chemical fertilizer when I saw buds a month ago and I fed it a little bit again yesterday. I also dumped a pile of bird poo in the pot after cleaning my porch a few weeks ago for a longer term organic feed solution.



3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin curiousities...
« on: June 16, 2025, 02:17:13 PM »
I decided to repot the little guy, then plant him in the ground when he's bigger, maybe next year. Would be neat if it could survive!

Nice!

Based on observed traits, it would appear I have 0 hybrids. The calamondin seedlings are now all exhibiting the same long style of leaf as the one thornless tree I'd suspected to be a hybrid. It is also now exhibiting wider leaves akin to the other calamondin. Bummer!

Good news though, the large calamondin and sunquat are sitting side by side and about to begin flowering. Those are my two favorite citrus to date, so I sincerely hope to cross them!

4
Based on forum reports, I'd like to try a Starburst pomelo.

And just in case this genuinely is a spiritual crisis and not tongue-in-cheek hyperbole, it sounds like you're chasing the idea that there is always something better. Perhaps good wasn't good enough for you, so now the universe is reminding you what a bad one is. Seems like a chance to learn the lesson to find gratitude and joy in the imperfect. When I approach life (and pomelos) without expectations, it's pretty easy to find gratitude even for what most folks would call a bad one.

So if you were being serious, yeah, you might be the problem. But if you were just being silly, my bad!  ;D

5
I'd like to join, but I need some direction.  I don't know where I can obtain one of these plants, while I am sure there grow natively somewhere around me, I don't know where. Is there any species particularly I should work on obtaining that would be best for this project? I have enough wild or unimproved lots around me where I could guerilla plant some of these on land I don't own (heh heh).

Also, the pawpaw discussion is close to my interests --- someone, or some group, needs to go out and collect samples of these pawpaw trees from ancient groves, I have thought this myself in the past -- but learning where they are is the challenge.

Great thread, by the way.

Podophyllum peltatum, or yellow American mayapple is the only kind I've seen growing wild in Ohio and WV. The one exception was one plant that could be called a podophyllum peltatum polycarpum as it had two fruit.

You can use plant ID apps like iNaturalist to find tagged GPS locations of specific species like wild mayapple or pawpaws. I'd suggest only digging a few from any patch you find.

The other option is to buy local or online. There are folks on FB marketplace selling mayapple nearby in Columbus and Cincinatti. Sadly, none of the local garden centers stock plants like mayapple unless I go out of my way to supply them.

6
I was not impressed by the Etsy tree when I got it, but I am very disappointed to report that the graft appears to be slowly dying. It was brown on the ends when I received it and this is what it looks like now after eleven days after a trim.

I finally gave in and reached out to the seller today. They replied in Chinese and offered decent advice by suggesting I trim it back, keep it in the sun, and mist it several times a day. That's what I've been doing, so it feels a bit like this one is out of my hands.

Credit where it's due though, the seller spotted the *one* bud on the graft that has started to pop in this photo. I didn't even notice the little bud down by the graft. So there is still hope!


 

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin curiousities...
« on: May 17, 2025, 01:16:35 PM »
Interesting you had that same experience...it's used as a rootstock in other countries, so worth a try!

The funny thing is that I'd blamed the grafted budwood, but your experience made me consider the possibility the citrange rootstock was to blame. Particularly because the pollen donor on it's own roots typically holds 90-95% of fruit set through maturity. The mother tree of the calamondin x calamondin aborted a good 75% of fruit that set.

As for crossing anything of interest, the majority of trees are just starting a growth spurt with the calamondin lagging behind. I'm still leaning towards attempting to root cuttings of that plant again over grafting as a newbie.

I do hope I get to cross it with a meiwa both ways this season. Meiwamondin and calaquat would be funny names for plants. I'm still not sure what I'd call that long leafed calamondin x calamondin offspring if it turned out to have good fruit. A cal-cal?

8
Or maybe I was being finicky about it, lol...

Our mayapple just popped in the last few weeks and flowered last week. I keep a patch of everything I forage for in my yard. Whenever mine are almost ripe, I go check the wild selections. Mid to late July is what I'm expecting this year.

And about what you said about pawpaws outliving us, that's very possible. I will admit I have found a few pawpaws in the Dayton, Ohio area that are probably pushing triple digits. But in general, the individual top side trees lifetimes seem to be similar to ours, even if the root network can live for centuries.

Reminds me of the box huckleberry plants found in PA, one of which is estimated to be 13,000 years old... https://thepennsylvaniarambler.wordpress.com/2019/02/06/along-the-way-the-box-huckleberry/

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 14, 2025, 09:11:44 AM »
Understood, so it's too soon to get my hopes up. I very much appreciate the trees and the information!

10
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Opuntia humifusa
« on: May 13, 2025, 05:55:48 PM »
The spineless ones shrivel during the winter and resemble humifusa otherwise so they're not cacanapa. The large fruited humifusa shrivel too. Inducing chimeras sounds like a fun project but I wonder what'll happen if ficus indica doesn't shrivel?

I don't really think cacanapa would be good for my zone, but I'm open to send a few pads of the large fruited one your way.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin curiousities...
« on: May 13, 2025, 02:21:54 PM »
The mother tree of the seedlings with the small thorns was one I found grafted on citrange. I observed the same tendency to drop fruit and grow huge. I was pretty frustrated with it. When a fungus boring bug got in the top of the rootstock I sectioned up the calamondin portions and attempted to root them in sand, actually. There may have been spider mites I failed to notice involved as they appeared on nearby plants afterward. But I think an occasional misting wouldn't have hurt.

And on a tangent, I'm suddenly wondering if using calamondin as a rootstock could promote greater fruiting and dwarfing characteristics in other varieties... Hmm. I may test that.

Edited: did some reading and found calamondin has the deepest roots of most common stocks, but is incompatible with a lot of things, so I don't intend to use it as a rootstock: https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/sites/default/files/2022-08/citrus-rootstocks-their-characters-and-reactions-bitters.pdf

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 13, 2025, 01:10:20 PM »
Oh wow. So at 2' tall in 5 gallon pots and presumably going into their second summer, it would not be unreasonable to think some of them may flower this year? They were all left in full sun and none were pruned. 026 and 5 star both grew into upright V shapes around 22-24" tall. One poncirus+ grew mostly upright to around 28" and the other is only 18". But every single tree took took top damage over the course of the winter that will affect apical dominance so they won't grow as tall as they could have this season.

Your observations about 5 star match what I've seen. I left these trees out on a pretty wind shielded porch through a series of 20*F nights and 5 star is the only one of the trifoliates that did not go dormant afterwards. If it was outdoors full time and winter came on quickly, it likely would have been the first to take damage.

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin curiousities...
« on: May 13, 2025, 12:57:13 PM »
Yeah, I get canker sores in my mouth eating oranges and some other citrus, so I'm wary of the calamondin, I have abused this plant more than any other I have, I think, and it just refuses to die. It doesn't even need as much fertilizer.

Right there with ya. I juice them in a garlic press, separate the seeds from the skin/pulp, and then use the remainder of the fruit to make a batch of tea. I typically water down the juice until it's not painfully acidic, add sugar to taste, and it's very pleasant.

My experience is the same, we have several Calamondin trees, two of which are permanently indoors and are more resistant to spider mites than our other citrus. They are far less picky and very forgiving. I always recommend them to beginners or those who don't have an outdoor growing space. As for the grafts, you're probably good to go! Temperatures around 70F seem to work well for graft healing.

Nice! Good to know we're all having similar experiences with them. I've gifted a few out to friends who enjoyed the fruit but were very much beginners. Only one died that I know of so far! And thanks for the info on grafting.

Despite my previous failure, I really want to attempt to root more cuttings too. I'd wager this tree originally started as a cutting because it was loaded with fruit at 1 foot tall. So the problem has to be me, right? lol...

14
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Opuntia humifusa
« on: May 13, 2025, 12:23:44 PM »
Wow the fruit is significantlly larger than the wild pads I have in my pots, and those don't have any pulp other than a clear gel inside which reminds me of aloe "slime". Perhaps the increased size is due to the increase in seeds so it's not a negative. I have have a potted nopal which is probably ficus indica hope to use that as well in a future cross.  I can spare a pad of the cacanapa if you'd like to trade for one, send me a DM whenever. Really cool find!

Yeah, that plant seems to be notable for it's fruit characteristics. The PO's had no information on it. It was a lucky FB marketplace find. That picture is what to expect of a plant that's perfectly cared for. When I got the winter before it had four sad thin fruit, akin to the plant in WV.

I think slimy is a word that could still be applicable to these too. They have a bit of that going on but it's not snotty. And it's not that bad when you eat them whole. Now time I tried to make them into juice... that's a different very slimy story.

I'm tempted by cacanapa, but now I'm curious if that's what my thornless opuntia actually are... The old buildings rest on large rocks and it's on the southern side, so it's probably seeing zone 7+ equivalent 360 days out of the year.


15
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Opuntia humifusa
« on: May 13, 2025, 11:31:53 AM »
The larger fruit does have pulp with a more significant seed content than I'd prefer. They are approximately 50% seeds/pulp. The rind holds a significant portion of the flavor with melon, cactus, and a slightly cherry notes going on when the fruit is fully ripe. I rub them in a paper towel to remove 95% of the glochids then cut off the top, bottom, and areoles with a sharp knife. From there it's good for a few small, tasty bites. The skin adds to the flavor too.

This particular plant seems to have a lower glochid count on the fruit than some other specimens that I've encountered. The seeds of opuntia are really what ruins it for most people though. They're hard as rocks and take up around as much space as the pulp in these fruit.



They were outgrowing the giant metal pot they're in last year, so I can spare a few pads if you'd like some. I think it is a very good plant to breed for improved varieties with good cold hardiness and larger fruit. It's the main plant I want to cross with o. ficus indica.



The thornless ones (that still have glochids!) only produced what looks like immature fruit of humifusa. They turn red though. The patch has been sitting between two buildings just down from the washout from a salt lick and left in disrepair for decades, which might be affecting the fruit quality and overall health...

I think I'll see different results from the pads I potted up as they are already looking better.



*Edited: Took me way too long to find the first plant's flower pics. Based on the hue, I think it may actually may be an opuntia cespitosa or cespitosa x humifusa. As I understand it, o cespitosa is a semi-rare type of opuntia humifusa native to Ohio that was once and may still be classified separately. I personally suspect cespitosa could be a surviving native people's cultivar from long ago that went feral.





16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin curiousities...
« on: May 13, 2025, 10:25:15 AM »
I picked up a calamondin tree at a local Walmart as an impulse decision as I never would have expected them to have one here, Arkansas 7b/8a, it's been battered, blown out of its pot by a tornado out into the woods, starved of water, etc and it just doesn't die.

It's completely thornless as far as I can see. It's certainly not very big.

That sounds exactly like my tree. I can ignore it, neglect it, starve it of light, leave it out through awful weather, and it still looks gorgeous and produces a lot of fruit. My other citrus trees are wimps compared to this calamondin just doing it's thing on it's own roots. It doesn't seem to be as susceptible to spider mites or scale as my other trees are either, which is really nice for indoor wintering.

edit: ehhh part of me wanted to plant it and see how well it does throughout the Arkansas winter, but the plant is so prolific at such a small size, I kind of like it ...

I recommend buying another one and planting it in the ground. That's exactly what I intended to do yesterday. But something looked off about it...



Never seen a tree with spray painted leaves before, but that's how the lot sent to Lowes looked. Yikes! It's going to get cleaned off and quarantined, just in case.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 13, 2025, 10:20:43 AM »
kumin, forgive me for the tangent, but I was wondering what size/age I could reasonably expect the poncirus+ and 026 trees you sent me to flower? If I recall you said they were seed grown and they appear to be around 2 years old now so I'm sure I'm in for a long wait!

18
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Opuntia humifusa
« on: May 10, 2025, 04:36:21 PM »
I have a large opuntia humifusa with fig sized fruit and a patch of heritage thornless opuntia humifusa in need of love. I hope to breed both with opuntia ficus indica eventually. Unfortunately, I only have a single rooted pad of that one, so unless I find a large potted example, I think I'm a long ways off from that goal. Wishing the other folks on that path the best!

19
When it comes to lower quality fruit ripening off the plant, I'm talking about the ones that are turning green to white without any yellow yet. They will ripen, but they're drier and less sweet. When they're already yellow, it's less notable. But when you're competing with squirrels, you gotta beat 'em to the fruit!

I'll shoot you a message when it's mayapple time. And regarding pawpaws, the patch sets very little fruit except for a few specific areas. And beavers have cut down the best fruiting trees in those areas over the past few years. So I have a few 2 year old seedlings left, but I won't be able to source more seeds unless nature does a better job at pollinating the patch this season.

My present plan was actually to graft budwood from the mature clones in the patch to pawpaws seedlings from other patches and distribute it among interested breeders.

20
Good to know the seeds aren't harmful if swallowed! I typically do scout patches just before the fruit ripens. They can be picked before they're ripe but fruit quality suffers pretty drastically if picked green and allowed to yellow on the counter.

If you want seeds for your project, I can keep some this season.  I forgot to do that with the double flowering patch last year. My preference is actually to cut out a stem and some rhizomes and add a clone to the collection. I did that with the single leafers already.

And yes, I believe them to be the feral children of once domesticated plants. What's really cool is that in certain instances, clonal patches/groves will form around mother plants over hundreds if not thousands of years, preserving ancient DNA. This is the case for the pawpaws in Glenn Helen Preserve in Yellow Springs, Ohio. There is one large pawpaw grove on the bottomland that spreads 20 acres or more. I believe the mother trees was planted by the natives thousands of years ago. Walking into that grove feels like traveling through time to the precolonial era. The flavor is the best pawpaw I've ever had: cantlaloupe-mango-banana in that order. Much better than most actual "wild" trees in smaller clusters.

On the topic of domestics going wild, there are other pawpaw patches in Ohio and WV I can cite pretty confidently as being clonal groves of native origin. Besides proximity to burial sites, my main tell is whether the trees in the center of a large grove set fruit or not. Since pawpaws are not self fertile, one can infer that a grove is clonal when only the trees on the outside edges of the multi-acre spread (with access to pollen from other pawpaws with different DNA) will set fruit. I've read mayapple patches spread very slowly, meaning that extremely large patches could be extremely old, perhaps even lost native cultivars like the pawpaws in YS.

21
I've foraged for and grown mayapple in my yard for years. Once they are a bright yellow they are perfect for eating. Though they are only safe to eat when fully ripe as I understand it. I believe only the flesh can be consumed, not the seeds or skin. I've never eaten more than a dozen in a sitting, but my body seems pretty happy with them as a snack and I've not seen any ill side effects. The ones I've had in SW Ohio and SW WV are delicious little tropical snacks with a pineapple-like thing going on. The plant materials and roots were used in native medicines and modern cancer medicines. But I've also read that natives consumed the root rhizomes to commit suicide.

While I can't cite any articles, I believe these plants were most definitely grown by natives along with other plants like pawpaws. They are often found in the same areas near native burial grounds along the Ohio river watershed.

I've found a few variations within just a few miles of one another. Some plants grew flowers on single leaf stems instead of double leaf stems. Others grew double flowers instead of singles. Some of the large fruit was the size of a mandarin. Most of it was closer to an inch long.

22
While I can't comment on the finer aspects of genome interpretation, I can say this thread has been a validating read. I've been watching for new life coming from previously clipped graft union shoots on some trees from Madison. Good to know I'm not crazy for thinking there's a small chance of chimeras.

23
My friend just grabbed one I’m wondering if I can graft a piece onto my Fukushu.
Did they manage to find one from a legal vendor?  It seems like at this moment I can't find any legal sources for a tree, but plenty of vendors that don't mind breaking the law and shipping it to you like the ones on Etsy.  I'm waiting for it to reach a legal distribution channel personally.  I emailed four winds they confirmed they will not be trying to obtain this cultivar in the coming years at least.  Still hoping maybe we'll get a local nursery selling some in the next 5-8 years.

Am I right in assuming each existing tree in SoCal got there illegally or is there some method to import living citrus plant material that is allowed under current CDFA regulations?

The trees on Etsy are very clearly packaged for spending a long time in boxes. Shipping info shows the company is in New York, which made me think someone may be importing trees through a port. But the one I got shipped from PA, not NY...

Do I suspect someone may be importing them in bulk and selling through that particular vendor? Yeah. Do I have proof? No.

brad, as far as I just read it is illegal to import seeds or plants to Cali, but best I can tell you're still legally allowed to buy the fruit in-state (like at an Asian market) and grow the seeds out... ;)

24
I did hear from one seller that there is two versions of the Honey kumquats floating around. One is a second generation variety which is real sweet (seedless) but the fruits are smaller. The other is a third generation variety that is the Crispy Honey, the fruits are much larger (ones we all ate), seedless, and sweet.

So the leaves on the second gen Honey kumquat may be smaller than the Crispy Honey.

Understood! Well, I got the plant. But it does not have any leaves. It's clearly grafted with the only notable characteristic being very small thorns on the grafted portion. The rootstock was packed with clay in a bag that felt like a thick paper towel. It didn't really seem worth photographing as of yet.

Wonder which one I got, if any! lol...

25
I did notice the leaves of the Crispy Honey are different that Meiwa or Nagami so you can just compare the shape of the leaves even before you get any fruits. I have seen a few trees and the Crispy Honey has the same shaped leaves.Take a photo of your leaves and I can tell you if it the correct leaves at least.

I'll add some pics when I get the tree. Here are some from the Etsy listing...



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