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Messages - incubator01

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Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shiikuwasha
« on: April 11, 2021, 05:46:11 AM »
If you plan to plant them in soil in your unheated greenhouse, the cold and humidity during the winter is going to kill the rootstock.
Left it outside at 0C
well at near 0 they don't freeze, it has a lot of thermal sink around. But once temps start to be -3C for a day, you will see damage.

Don't worry, I will not plant it in full soil anymore. I planted every citrus in containers, except a kumquat seedling, just for the fun of it ;)
The next nights we get -2 C so I did cover all of them with a frost cloth inside the unheated greenhouse just to be sure the new growth will not die. I can confirm shikuwasa is a good grower, perhaps a bit slower than others but once it got started it got new buds on many places and grow fast.
As for reference, I was told by a dutch citrus specialist that most citrus were grafted on PT however since I saw many differences on the grafts of the ones on Oscar Tintori's plants I already found it odd. I do know from the same person that Oscar tintori is to be trusted in terms of having good plants, much better than whatever I had before from local stores.
My only issue (personally) is that I should not buy very young cuttings or recent grafted plants, I do not have the proper experience yet to care for them and make sure they survive winter. Maybe in the future :)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shiikuwasha
« on: April 10, 2021, 02:33:29 PM »
I visited tintori in the past and also bought many plants from them. They never used poncirus as rootstock. All plants were grafted on macrophylla or volkameriana.

Ah I see, then I was misinformed. I stand corrected.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 09, 2021, 01:49:44 PM »
yes, all my citrus are in there and I have watered them two times with very small amount of water, its cold, and is not very bright there so they use very little amount. The kumcuats I havent watered whatsoever , their soil still has moisture from the last watering in the fall ...
I will be taking all my citrus plants and others in a few days and will give them all a nice shower and watering....

That's very interesting to know. I would think the soil would get some sort of fungus from the moisture if it stays wet that long but apparently not :)
Will definitely try this out next winter!

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shiikuwasha
« on: April 09, 2021, 06:59:49 AM »

Tested this winter yes down to -8C it can survive although autumn growth dies.
Almost all the nurseries in Europe sell Shikuawasha on Alemow rootstock. The rootstock will die at -2C to 0C or before most likely because of root rot. I usually toss to compost or give to someone those plants with Alemow, they all get root problems after few years.
I have my plants on PT.
This year I will graft few plants on Shikuwasha seedlings and test it for hardiness as well. Although on its own it is not resistant to root rot.

I don't think oscar tintori uses alemow, they mainly use Poncius trifoliate and so far mine has survived longer than any alemow plants i bought from local sellers. (well you already know my background)

I ordered a second one from them, though I hope this one will have greener foliage because as you can see on the picture mine has yellowish leaves, some turned much greener already but the rest remains.
Otherwise plant is in good health,  I left it outside at 0C in februari and nothing died, though it did not have new growth, only new flowers but they did not fall off.
I do would like to know how you got the leaves of yours to be so very large and dark green though, I already give nutrients with enough N in it but maybe you do / give something extra ?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 09, 2021, 06:53:46 AM »
I have tree  small kumquat seedlings along with a pomello seedling,  they are s single summer old, that overwintered successfully in my basement with very little light and low temps to the point the soil had froze one time , but general temps were around 2-3 c .

I heard people putting them in a basement before, I assume the air is more humid there, unfortunately our basement has no window with direct light, as as dark as hell there (perfect to grow mushrooms though xD) so I don't know if they'd survive 3 months in total darkness.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shiikuwasha
« on: April 08, 2021, 03:01:24 PM »
Not so sure what you have. Shiikuwasha is not supposed to be cold hardy as it comes form Okinawa, a subtropical climate. C. tachibana which looks similar and from the same area it's cold hardy to -8 to -10 C
I didn't test it because here we had a very warm winter.
What I can say that when it was -1C for a night new growth just died as compared to Keraji which didn't suffer anything. So I expect it to be similar to lemon.

I left mine in the greenhouse uncovered when it was 0C outside and probably 1 C in the greenhouse and it started growing anyway in march.
I too found it was cold hardy until -7/8 to -10 C and I really hope that is true because so far it has been my most favorite plant, it barely lost anything compared to a pursha a,d mine is now also flowering (and still growing new branches and leaves all over the place)
I bought a second one because this seems to be one I can easily work with :)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 08, 2021, 05:37:12 AM »
ok, I'll see how they survive but from the looks of it it wont' be that good.
As experiment I put one seedling in the full soil of my greenhouse, just for the fun of it (I had too many anyway) :)

Cold Hardy Citrus / kumquat seedlings cold hardyness
« on: April 07, 2021, 01:58:14 PM »
I have some very nicely growing kumquat seedlings (the standard kumquat, not meiwa or anything else peculiar).
I would like to know if anyone knows how different in cold hardiness they are compared to the grafted ones.
I will keep these in containers of course and place them in a greenhouse in the winter but if they're not as cold tolerant as their grafted comrades then I must place them in a warmer location.

Speaking of which, perhaps not related on this topic but if I have to keep these in a warmer location, I want to make a air humidifier by putting expanded clay grains in a terracotta dish, soak the grains in water except for the top layer and place my seedling container on top of that (so it won't get wet). The purpouse is that the wetness in these expanded clay grains would evaporate. Has this been done before and does it work or am I doing a fool's errand?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shiikuwasha
« on: April 07, 2021, 08:25:01 AM »

I too have a shikuwasa, bought it because it was cold hardy, so far it's been inside the greenhouse protected from snow and cold but it's vigorously flowering and growing new branches.
If I knew before hand the pursha lime would be so extremely sensitive to temperature change (a large tree of 30cm pot size diameter) lost half its leaves due to a hot spring day spike and it could not handle 40C inside greenhouse) I would not have gotten it and gotten an extra shikuwasa instead, they seem very interesting plants and t didn't suffer at all from these temperature changes :)

@lebmung : inside air was too dry here, moved everything elsewhere, increased survival chances.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 22, 2021, 05:53:26 AM »
incubator01  Are you near a bridge to far.  Does your kumquat fall under the name of Nagami.  Nagami kumquats handle high heat very well. A picture of an 8 year old seed grown Nagami kumquat I gave to a friend 7 ears ago

No, it's latin name is Fortunella Margarita.
That plant looks very nice, I'm also growing a few kumquat from seed, just to see what it will do in many years :)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 21, 2021, 03:22:53 PM »
Why don't you plant them outside and just cover them for the occasionally cold nights you can get?

First of all not every part of my garden is for me alone, that's why I have a greenhouse. This means I also cannot plant them outside and build a rigid construction around it, because the heavy wind in january / february would blow it away if these parts are removable. (Yes even the roof of my garage got lifted by the wind once)

Second, it rains a lot here, when it does, it rains for 3 weeks pretty much non stop. Any citrus would drown in it. No matter how well draining the garden soil would be.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 21, 2021, 10:18:51 AM »
What kind of kumquat are you getting.  My kumquats produce fruit January through March.

February picture

I'm getting the Fortunella Reale, oval kumquat.

Our winter temperatures usually float around -4 to -7C but last winter we had an exceptionally cold one of -10C.
I was going to cover them up with a fleece cover regardless but still, the summer is worrying me more.
I do not have the accommodation or space to place ventilation systems in the greenhouse. Only the 4 windows and double door to open up.

Cold Hardy Citrus / cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 21, 2021, 08:42:23 AM »
I'm getting a Kumquat and shikuwasa soon because they're cold hardy for our winters and I don't have to worry too much about the plant dying from the cold (though I will protect it) but I prefer to plant these in full soil, not in containers in the greenhouse (because that's where I can plant whatever i want).
My question is, will such citrus survive warmer summers? Often I have potted citrus that get dried out leaves when the sun shines and the temperature rises above 32 C, even during heat waves inside the greenhouse it gets to 50 C.
The greenhouse is 4.5m long, 3m wide and 2.7m high, the sunny side has a shade cloth because the whole thing gets plenty of sun light anyway and has 4 windows and a double door. Naturally I open up everything completely when temps rise above 25 C but I just want to make sure that I'm not making a stupid decision of planting these in the greenhouse.
As to why I want them in full soil:
- I prefer to limit the  citrus in containers
- Full soil has better moisture management and root development for long term
- no need to hassle with giant containers in the later phases.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 19, 2020, 07:04:09 AM »
ah, I once thought of that but never did, but i'll go do that :)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 19, 2020, 05:29:53 AM »
I'm from the flemish part of belgium, i knew about the french forum but my french is too limited for me to make too technical conversations. So that's why I'm here :)

My pots (the plastic ones) have a lot of hols in the bottom, I drilled 8 extra in addition to the 12 existing. My drill  is a small one so doesn't support 1 cm drills, the biggest it canhold is 8mm diameter.

As for a cheap pine bark compost, the only compost i found in Gamma is
It's not exactly what you mention though, and not very granular either.

The fertilizer i have should do however, the vendor has been using it for years on all his citrus trees and I'm even using it on lemon and limequat seedlings and they grow nice.
But it is true that most easy to get fertilizers are not good here, hence I order the floranid twin permanent elsewhere.
The mix of a commercial substrate plus perlite is also what I do for my seedlings, I use

Citrus General Discussion / Re: problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 18, 2020, 12:06:37 PM »
I did come across some guides of the 5-1-1 mix and I  was once eager to try it but the problem is acidity and nutrition, they say I have to add a part organic lime to it but i have no idea under what brand that is sold here (I do know what it is from looking it up but its the english terminology that makes it hard to map it in local brands)
And nutrition because there's not much nutrition value in this. If I have plenty of seedlings that germinate I'm eager to give that mix a try on one of those but only if I know the belgian equivalent of organic lime and if I know a slow release fertiliser will suffice (Floranid twin permanent is a dry fertiliser that lasts about 4 - 6 weeks)

EDIT: If plagron calcium kick is organic lime (,makes%20the%20plant%20grow%20faster. ) then I am already familiar with this product, if it is not then i need further guidance.

However I would need to know how frequent I need to water the plant then (more or less, I know a fixed irrigation schedule is not always good, just to get an idea of how often to check it), because my moisture meter will not function very well in such a mix.
Also, if i were to use such a mix on an already purchased citrus tree with that thick lump of soil from the nursery, is it really a good idea to wash it of? last attempts were very stressfull for those plants and some say not to do it while others do.

At least it is good to know this mix does give good results with others beyond the Youtube video :)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 18, 2020, 03:29:21 AM »
That's what I did with the kaffir an persian lime of which I attached an image, I waited about 3 weeks before repotting, however I'm afraid wrong advise from someone else caused this rootrot. He told me to put pine bark on top of the soil to protect the surface roots and retain moisture, problem is that pine bark makes my soil too moist and even wet for weeks.
I simply hope these 2 will recover permanently from it, so far they went through the worst, but it's still not 100% out of their system.
Maybe yes if I did buy a new one and did it without the pine bark  it would be fine.
However I'd much rather get my hands on viable kaffir lime seeds because I prefer a larger growing tree with thicker trunk than a grafted one, people keep telling me grafted trees don't live as long and are more prone to rootrot.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 17, 2020, 04:19:04 PM »
In the previous plants that died, it was most definitely rootrot (Phytophthora?) because when I removed the dead plant from the pot the roots where full of fungus spores. (I tried a fungicide on one of them when it was not dead yet but that didn't work) and they also had the orange crystallised resin coming out of the stems.

On the current ones, they only have had leaf drop and brown branches, no resin.
The water I use is rain water or tap water (I used both), neither of them contain calcium , this is why I make sure to add CalMag but that didn't help either.

When I leave the plant in the pot from the nursery, the plant remains stable, however the seller did mention I really should repot it, and when I did I noticed why. The plant was container bound, the roots were really in an urge to get out of there and tied in a knot because they were unable to expand.
When the plants were purchased the leaves of the kaffir lime did show some yellow / greenish, probably from a lack of nutrients because the soil was well watered.
If he would over water the plant then it'd die in his nursery but he claims they dry out really fast in his greenhouse.
The time of repotting didn't seem to matter, I repotted a persian lime in spring and in summer and both suffered the same fate, the first one died though.

I also tried different kind of containers, first mostly plastic ones and lately, the limequat a terracotta one because it absorbs moisture better. but as you can see it doesn't improve things.

For the limequat I was wondering if drought might have been a problem but there was so little time in between, on a Thursday it was still moist enough (I use a cheap 10 moisture meter from amazon because it's more or less good enough to figure that out) and on Sunday it had most of its leaves dried up, the weather was warm but not so bad it'd dry up everything, usually it takes a lot longer to dry up the soil. The other 2 limes were not dried out at all so that was proof the weather couldn't have done it.

As for how free draining the medium is: the middle section of the soil is the one of the vendor, it is pretty free draining, when you water it it runs through it instantly and when you water more than it can absorb, it definitely runs through the pot holes quickly. But the soil retains the absorbed moisture pretty well, when washing the roots with earlier plants I noticed the soil becoming a clump of mud that would stick to it really well.
Around that I put my soil, a mixture of a bit of compost, universal potting soil (DCM) which contains some peat moss, some of the vendor's soil from previous plants and perlite for improved aeration.
I noticed that my circle of soil dries out faster than the core. But washing the root ball out is so stressing for the plant that I don't do it anymore

Citrus General Discussion / problems with grafted citrus trees
« on: September 17, 2020, 01:01:40 PM »

For 2 years now I am tirelessly trying to keep citrus trees alive, but so far I managed to kill 8 already :(
I buy grafted trees which are probably no older than 2 years from a local vendor who sells exotic plants, he gets them from growers in sicily, Italy.
I bought Kaffir limes, Key limes, persian limes and limequats and from other sellers I bought cuttings of kaffir lime and persian lime.

The internet is full of different kinds of information which is very contradictional and caused much grief.
First trial was with a kaffir lime put in purchased potting mix for citrus plants, the plant was grafted and eventually died from rootrot and armoured scale.
Because people said this kind of soil was not good I found a Dutch site describing to use 50% white sand and 50% compost, but that soil instantly killed the next 2 plants because that soil did not drain at all and remained very wet for weeks.
Third trial was with another Kaffir lime and Key lime using a potting mix of equal parts of perlite, vermiculite and coco peat or peat moss (but I prefer coco peat), that soil appeared to be needed in very hot climates such as South california but definitely not in central Europe, soil stayed too wet because the vermiculite retained moisture too well, but it did drain much better.
However, plants died after a few weeks.
Note that in the second and third trial I washed the old soil off the roots with water, probably this also stressed the plants too much.

Last test I re-used the soil from the vendor's pots and added a bit fresh potting mix and compost, so basically the composition was: equal parts of potting mix (universal), regular soil with sandy structure and I added perlite to improve aeration.
This time I did not wash the old soil on the roots and just loosened the roots on the edge of the root crown, left the soil on the rest so stress would be minimal.
I put it in a pot that was 10cm bigger (wider and higher) than the previous one.
After one week the kaffir lime and persian lime dropped all leafs, some branches turned brown, even though I reduced my watering regime.
I let them dry out (not fatally) and give it little bits of water once a week, then they start to grow new foliage, but more branches die off.
Weeks later the new foliage is nice and big, suddenly the plant stops growing, new buds wither and turn brown, some tiny green leafs fall off.

In  the meantime I also got a limequat, repotted it the same way, it was fine for 3 weeks, then suddenly one day when I was supposed to water it, 90% of its leafs were dried out and fell off. Some healthy ones too for unknown reason.
The food I give them is Floranid Twin Permanent with NPK of 16-7-15, which turns out to be the best slow release fertiliser compared to all other liquid ones I tried.
There were no aphids/scale present on any of the plants.

To this end I am slowly to the point of breaking down and giving up on these grafted horrors. I know growing from seeds is not done in commercial  areas because of viruses passing on but germinating lime seeds is more successful than keeping those trees alive...

But regardless I wanted to find out if there's anything different I can do.
As for the location: 2 years ago I put them outside, that tree could withstand bright sunlight, until I repotted it. After many attempts to get the information out of the vendor, I now put it in my greenhouse (where it's warmer) where there is a shade cloth to protect the limes from burning sun. The roof of the greenhouse has partially filtered glass so no bright sunlight can get in. The vendor told me he put them in there too with similar conditions, even when it was very hot.
So it is sheltered from wind there and gets filtered sunlight, protected from the western sun.

Attached are pictures from a kaffir lime, persian lime and limequat as they are right now.
-> Kaffir lime

-> Persian lime

-> limequat

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