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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu
« on: March 23, 2023, 02:13:21 AM »
I had the premium Yuzu from Japan and candied the peel. When I looked up the process of candying citrus peel it often said to boil the peel to remove the bitter flavor. Because I've heard sometimes that Yuzu peel is not bitter, I did not do this, as I wanted to not lose any flavor by boiling them. But the result of the Yuzu candied peel still tastes bitter. It might be less than most other citrus, I can't compare as I've only candied Yuzu for now.
Was your Yuzu fresh and the peel tender? To use the Yuzu peel, the Yuzu should be fresh and the peel bright yellow-orange in color.
If you bought your Yuzu from a market, outside of Japan, it may have been picked unripe and greenish in color.

At its best, Yuzu zest does have a tiny bit of bitterness, but less than lemon peel.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: white pummelo identification
« on: March 19, 2023, 02:05:51 AM »
Pomelos of that type are very common in Asia (China, Vietnam). But are not the typical pomelo sold in the U.S. (Chandler pomelo, with a pink inside).
I actually prefer the Asian pomelo (although Chandler is not bad). Majority of American consumers prefer sweeter and prefer no seeds.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: March 12, 2023, 01:15:58 AM »
One of the historic Japanese Citrus varieties ( sorry can't think which ) is said to have been grown from a fruit found on the beach several hundred years ago.
That would be Natsu mikan (meaning "summer mandarin orange", though despite the name, closer to being grapefruit-like rather than mandarin orange). I have actually picked off the tree and tasted one (which I described in another thread). I do not believe this variety has any ancestry from unusual citrus species though.

Something I had overlooked in a different thread.
This may not be completely correct, but from what I understand C. ryukuensis is kind of like a purer ancestor of C. tachibana.
In any case, they are probably very closely related.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu
« on: March 02, 2023, 11:39:55 AM »
Does anyone like the taste of Yuzu?  How would you describe the taste?
The flavor is kind of "lemon" and "lime"-like, but much more "orange" in flavor, specifically mandarin orange. The aroma is fragrant like a fragrant sour variety of orange. There is also something slightly sulfurous, almost a little reminiscent of grapefruit but a little bit different (maybe almost a small hint of guava-like aroma), and also a "spiciness" that mixes with the fragrant sour orange aroma.

Yuzu can be a really nice interesting flavor added to other things. However the fruits themselves are not really good quality.
The peel of yuzu is more tender than other citrus fruits, and the white pith beneath the peel lacks bitterness, unlike a grapefruit or lemon. (The peel is tender if you're able to get a fresh yuzu recently picked off the tree) This makes yuzu more like a citron.
Yuzu is not so valuable for its juice but rather most of the flavor is in the peel, and oils of the peel.

Yuzu is a unique flavor.

If you were trying to approximate its flavor, probably the closest thing to it would be lime juice mixed with juice from mandarin oranges. Also mixed with juice of seville orange (such as found in a Persian market) if you can find it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: January 24, 2023, 07:13:42 PM »
Is Taiwan far enough off-shore to be genetically isolated?
I think it would be very difficult for species from the mainland to reach Taiwan by natural means, perhaps not impossible. Most likely any original citrus species that were brought to Taiwan were brought there by humans - the Chinese. (With the exception of C. tachibana which was probably indigenous to either Taiwan or Southern Japan, or perhaps both)

The island of Taiwan is 160 km (about 100 miles) away from mainland China. And probably most of the citrus types did not even exist on the coast of China in that area before the Chinese civilization came, with the exception of kumquat.

There are about one thousand endemic plant species in Taiwan, meaning they exist only on Taiwan, not the mainland. So this would seem to indicate some degree of natural genetic isolation.

According to one ancient text, mandarin oranges could be found growing in the wild on the island of Hainan by around the year 1000 AD, though it is unlikely the species originated there. (Edward H. Schafer, Shore of Pearls: Hainan Island in Early Times, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1970 )
They probably escaped into the wild from human cultivation.

Forestry Bureau held a "Return of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange" event at the hiking trail entrance of the Daping Forest Road of Jiali Mountain in Nanzhuang Township, Miaoli County. Planting of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange took place at the event, where it was also pledged that this citrus species will be brought back to its place of origin (this citrus, named after Nanzhuang, is an endemic plant of Taiwan and is now on the verge of extinction in the wild). It is the hope that this act can help restore the forest ecosystem in the foothills of Taiwan and promote the development of green economy in the mountain village communities.

The Nansho Daidai Sour Orange (Citrus taiwanica Tanaka & Shimada) is a citrus species in the Rutaceae family endemic to Taiwan. It was first documented that the plant was discovered in 1926 by Japanese botanists in Miaoli's Nanzhuang Hongmaoguan, present-day Penglai Village in Nanzhuang Township, and was therefore named "Nansho Daidai Sour Orange." However, with the development and utilization of the foothill forests, the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange almost become extinct in its original discovery site, and it has been listed in the IUCN Red List as a Critically Endangered species due to its rarity.

The Penglai region in Nanzhuang is the traditional living area of the Saisiyat people. According to Gen Chih-You, a Saisiyat elder, the Saisiyat name for Nansho Daidai Sour Orange is gadayou (meaning "food prepared by mother"). The citrus has been an important plant for the Saisiyat since ancient times, since the fruit is both a snack and also has medicinal and ceremonial applications. Elder Gen recalled that when he was a child, whenever he had a cold, the family elders would grind dried Nansho Daidai Sour Orange into a powder for him to take as medicine. It was a must-have plant for general healthcare used by every Saisiyat family in the early years when medical treatment was not readily available.
According to the Forestry Bureau, the fruits and leaves of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange have a strong fragrance, while the juice has a distinctive sour taste and a slight bitterness. The fruit's unique flavor makes it very suitable for processing and consumption. Furthermore, the wood of the orange tree is extremely fine in texture, and according to literature, it was considered the best wood for making pipes, knife handles, and other delicate wooden tools in the early days.

The fruits were tested for the development of essential oil extraction, dessert-making, and tea and beverage preparation, all with amazing results. At the event, the Hsinchu Forest District Office presented a "pound cake with Nansho Daidai Sour Orange frosting" made using the juice and "Nansho Daidai Sour Orange peel nama chocolate" made using the orange peel syrup. The unique refreshing scent and tangy sweetness of the Nansho Daidai Sour Oranges greatly impressed the guests who tasted the delicious treats. It is hoped that the local tribal communities of Nanzhuang will create specialty products with Nansho Daidai Sour Oranges, as it would not only help with both species preservation and the economy, but also bring a wonderful flavor experience to the people of Taiwan.

"Return of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange": Forestry Bureau Partners with the Saisiyat to Restore Taiwan's Endemic and Rare Plants
from Taiwan, January 29, 2021

(It should of course be noted than Nansho daidai was already a cultivated variety in Japan in old times, before being found by the Japanese botanist growing in the wild in Taiwan. It was valued in Japan as an ornamental because the fruits continue to hang on the tree for a long time, sometimes up to several years)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: January 23, 2023, 12:47:34 AM »
There is some evidence to suggest the Taiwanica variety may have originated from a naturalized population growing in the wild on the island of Taiwan, although humans would have brought the ancestral species to Taiwan from mainland China.
(There is a similar story to how the original grapefruits originated on the island of Barbados)
Since Taiwan, especially in the river valleys, is a great natural climate for citrus to grow, but experiences a freeze about once every 40 years, it could have been a great climate for natural selection to take place, to perhaps develop some cold tolerance or general hardiness, over many successive generations.

More recent   Japanese paper claims that C.taiwanica genetically is identical to Henka mikan and is a hybrid of Kunenbo-A tangor with Yuzu.
A similiar cross produced some other Japanese varieties including Sudachi.
Ilya, are you sure that is correct? I read that paper and it said only that they found some relationship existed between Nanshodaidai (which is C. taiwanica) and Henka mikan.
I did not read anything about a relationship with Yuzu.
(also realize that Natsudaidai is a different variety from Nanshodaidai)

If Taiwanica seems to share some ancestry in common with Yuzu, then exactly how they are related is open to speculation. Yuzu though seems to have more ancestral contribution from the original papeda, C. ichangensis, which seems to barely show up at all in DNA marker analysis of Taiwanica, if it shows up at all.

As far as I can tell, Taiwanica was not really valued except as an ornamental and occasionally for flavoring vinegar. But there could be a possibility it may have been used in very old times, perhaps before other varieties replaced it. Perhaps its main use could have been just as a rootstock. This in no way implies that Taiwanica existed before Yuzu, but perhaps for some reason a certain population at one time in history had access to Taiwanica but did not know of Yuzu.
This is all just speculation though.

The fact that DNA analysis of Taiwanica shows pomelo ancestry is not that surprising. During this time in this part of the world, "kunenbo"-type tangor-like fruits seem to have been common. This was a hybrid between mandarin orange (C. reticulata) and pomelo. It would have had more cold tolerance than pomelo (which is native to a climate further south) and possibly grown or ripened better in the cooler climate of Taiwan or southern Japan (which is in closer proximity to the ocean). The pomelo ancestry contributed aroma and flavor. Judging by the cold tolerance of some of its offspring, it is logical to conclude that the kunenbo fruit had a good level of cold tolerance, perhaps brought about by the phenomena of hybrid vigor between species (despite the sweet orange apparently not having gotten this benefit). The thicker skin from the pomelo ancestry also would have given it a long shelf life on sea voyages, making it more likely to be disseminated to the islands of Taiwan and Japan. (For the same reason, the orange reached Europe long before the mandarin orange did)

If Taiwanica has an analogous equivalent to a "European"-type citrus fruit, it would be the sour orange (C. aurantium), although of course Taiwanica has more cold tolerance.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrumelo
« on: January 23, 2023, 12:04:10 AM »
I am not saying this is applicable to all climates, but from what I have seen in the climate where I am, from several Yuzu plants, maybe about 11.5 degrees F ( -11.35 degrees C) might be the limit of what Yuzu can survive, over consecutive years. At 14 degrees F ( -10 degrees C) it will suffer virtually no damage. Below that it will suffer some partial damage. The plant might be able to survive down to 10 or 11 degrees F with serious damage, but will not be able to sustain that year after year. Not in this climate. Maybe somewhere farther South in the U.S. with a longer and warmer growing season it might be able to recover and not slowly decline from that.

My Dunstan citrumelo appears to have more cold tolerance than my Yuzu and can survive better. The leaves will be more likely to fall off, but they can regrow easier. Yuzu does not regrow leaves as well. It's important that the Yuzu keeps its old leaves because it might only grow 30 or 40 percent the number of new leaves the following year as the number of old leaves on the tree. The leaves do appear to be able to recover from partial damage, and can regain some of their green coloration, but if damaged beyond a certain level, they will eventually fall off, often this may not become fully evident until later when things begin warming up.

I would like to point out that these numbers are really not exact, and are more based on my subjective impressions and instincts I have gathered from experiences, with several plants over several years. So I hope that just helps give some anecdotal idea, rather than being taken as exact reliable information.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 21, 2023, 03:54:11 PM »
I think being on the border between 8a/8b may have some big advantages over being in zone 8a when growing many of these varieties (like Yuzu, Ichang papeda, Ichang lemon, Ichangquat, etc) At least that is the feeling I have from my experience. These varieties ALMOST would have been able to grow well here if it had just been a very small amount less cold.

The U.S. South is a totally different situation, however. I suspect being farther north with a shorter growing season, the plants cannot handle as low temperatures or are not as easily able to recover from damage. From reports I have read, it seems like many people in the U.S. South are able to grow these varieties in their zone 8a, sometimes even on the border between 7b/8a.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 21, 2023, 03:33:52 PM »
The Ichangquat I have should be the same one as Ilya's, which for him has survived unprotected in zone 8a for 15 years or more (I don't know exactly when he got it). Which included temperatures down to -16C I believe (3.2F).

It seems the Ichangquat cultivar 6-7-2 is the one that is most cold hardy, while others aren't as much. Although the one we have in Europe is an F2 from 672, so I'm not sure how the US and EU versions of 672 would compare.
Yes, the seeds came from Ilya, but one thing to consider is that Ilya's tree is growing in a very protected spot on the inner corner of two high walls of his house. 
Another factor might be the climate. I suspect there may be something a little bit different about Europe (specifically France's) climate compared to the U.S. PNW. Although the PNW region and France are very similar, zone 8a in Europe may translate to more stable temperatures with fewer ups and downs than in the U.S. I am not sure. It seems many have had more success with varieties in zone 8a Europe than I have had with those varieties here.
Ilya also lives not too far from Paris, which might further be helping, preventing things from getting too cold.

What kind of temperatures did you have when your plants got wiped out?
It went down to almost 12 degrees F, maybe only 14 degrees F (let's say -11 degrees C ),  buried in a foot of snow.
This was preceded by a clear sunny day. Perhaps the sun is a little bit more intense here than in Europe, and that is enough to warm the leaves too much, maybe reducing the level of protective dormancy? The latitude on the planet is not much different (47 degrees north here compared to 48.8 in Paris, which could still make some significant difference), but perhaps the skies here can get a little bit more clear sometimes than in Europe during the winter. I am not sure, it is very likely I am just overthinking this.

Some varieties that seem like they may be able to make it here gradually decline year after year until they finally die.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 20, 2023, 12:42:11 AM »
Yesterday I was grafting Ichangquat and Ichang Lemon, then I was thinking
I have tried growing small plants of Ichanguat grown from seed, and an Ichang lemon in a container outside, in the U.S. PNW zone 8a. I have found these plants can not really grow well here, not without some degree of protection. They will seem to barely survive, and then a colder winter than normal will come along one year and wipe the plants out.

Something strange I have noticed, one year the plants seemed to make it through the winter great, the next year the plants were almost completely destroyed, but it was not the same year. One plant might due well in one year but not another, and then the next year it was the reverse.

Two of the Ichangquat seedlings are dead now, one had a tiny bit of green only an inch above the base but looked close to death. The Ichang lemon looked like it was almost completely killed, but then the next year managed to recover and then survive through the winter outside okay, while other varieties that had done better than Ichang lemon in previous years died. If Ichang lemon has any chance of long term success in this climate, it would only be in a very protected spot, like in the corner of a house with walls surrounding it on two sides.

The Yuzu did not do well last year either. One finally died after a few years of slow decline. That one was planted in a semi-protected spot and was on grafted rootstock.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Thomasville v. Morton?
« on: November 23, 2022, 01:11:51 PM »
I tasted the Morton citrange and Thomasville citrangequat that Jim VH grew. (We think it is a Morton citrange because the fruit strongly resembles it and does not resemble any of the other hardy citrus varieties we are aware of, and the nursery where the tree was bought used to sell Morton citrange and we believe there could have been a mix-up) 
The Morton citrange looks like a delicious orange, few seeds, but has a terrible poncirus taste inside that makes it completely inedible, to me in my personal opinion.
The Thomasville citrangequat was completely edible, in my personal opinion, with little bitterness and barely any detectable poncirus off-flavor. The flavor was rather lime and calamondin-like, but a little inferior in flavor to a regular lime.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The most hardy non trifolate citrus tree
« on: September 28, 2022, 02:46:46 AM »
I have been experimenting with pretty much all of the rare non-trifoliate hardy citrus trees.

My results so far seem to show that Changsha is the hardiest of them. Yuzu is a close second, but does not seem to be as hardy as Changsha. But I cannot be absolutely sure about this.   

All of the research from things I have read have informed me that Ichang papeda should be the hardiest non-trifoliate citrus, but that is not what my experimental observations have shown. I had obtained Ichang papeda from two different sources in the Portland, Oregon area but it is possible they might have originated from the same source and could have perhaps been grown from some specific seedling that had less hardiness than its parent, though I think this is not so likely.

Plants were grown in the Pacific Northwest, climate zone 8a, and last winter had a low that may have gone down to as low as 9 degrees F one night, though other than that it was not a very cold winter. It killed some of the Yuzu plants, even one that had been surviving for several years through cold winters before that, but a Changsha that was planted in a very protected spot and sheltered by a large bush growing around it (although it was not covered) survived and even kept all its leaves.

To be fair, I have not grown Prague Citsuma, but another member of this forum is growing one in a protected spot and in the middle of a suburban neighborhood across the bridge from Portland (also zone 8a). Its leaves did not seem to look as good as the Changsha he was growing, which one might perhaps take as an indicator of cold tolerance. I got to taste the inside of the fruit. It was very much like Satsuma mandarin but the fruits were smaller, more sour, and perhaps just a little bit less ripe tasting, but not bad at all.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« on: September 06, 2022, 04:18:31 PM »
I think Citrangeremos are hybrids between Eremocitrus x Citrange.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: August 22, 2022, 02:42:49 AM »
Changsha certainly looks like it might be a worthy contributor to a cold hardy breeding plan.
It's important to point out that your profile says you are in zone 6b. (Changsha has a limit of 8a, maybe the border of 8a and 7b but it might struggle)

For you in particular it may be more practical to just stick to US-835 (Changha x poncirus hybrid).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« on: August 22, 2022, 01:27:17 AM »
Let me first say I am not expert in this specific area, but from what information I have found, I believe that Citrus glauca is only about equal in cold tolerance to Satsuma mandarin. (Even though Satsuma mandarin can be rather cold tolerant in some situations)
This makes me skeptical that Eremo- hybrids with ordinary citrus fruit species could be as cold tolerant as claimed.

I do know that Citrus glauca is very drought tolerant, so that might potentially resist desiccating cold winter winds, and perhaps it enables the root systems to sprout back.

Of course, the person who made the opening post lives in climate zone 8b, so I am sure all sorts of only marginal hardy citrus varieties could survive there. Even a Satsuma mandarin might perhaps survive for him if planted in a protected spot. If he lived in 8a, it would be very much more difficult, and zone 7 nearly impossible.

It should also be noted that there is a big difference between zone 8 in the US South versus zone 8 in Europe. (Given the same climate zone number, I think the South is easier to grow in most years, due to the longer growing season and greater warmth)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: August 18, 2022, 01:40:07 AM »
My thoughts on breeding hardy citrus is it might make sense to try to cross Changsha mandarin with Dunstan citrumelo.
I'm in the PNW, climate zone 8a, and these two varieties have been the ones that have seemed to survive the best in this climate. The others got almost completely wiped out after temperatures went down a little colder than usual. I have trialed a lot of different hardy varieties.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Shortest Growing Season Citrus
« on: July 20, 2022, 10:26:50 PM »
I thought that sudachi is significantly less cold hardy than yuzu? Still better than most citrus, but closer to the level of a satsuma?
From my testing 2 hours north of jim VH, it seems like Sudachi has close to the same level of absolute cold tolerance. But Yuzu is a more vigorous grower and can more easily recover from damage. The Sudachi and most of the Yuzu plants finally died after being exposed to a brief temperature drop to 9 F, even though the rest of the winter wasn't that cold. They had previously survived a quick drop down to between 12 and 14 a previous winter, with only slight to moderate damage.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Rooting Prague chimera cuttings
« on: July 19, 2022, 01:54:19 AM »
plant seeds  much better test.
Probably not a good idea. We've had this discussion before. Since this cultivar is a rare chimera, any seeds planted from the fruits are likely to turn out to be plain Satsuma mandarin seeds. Although no one has actually tested that hypothesis, as far as I know.

Two small updates

One of the Yuzu bushes that I thought was killed seems to be sprouting a few tiny leaflets from its base, right above the graft line.

A seedling that I grew from US-852 citrandarin (poncirus x Changsha) seems to be sprouting up from the ground. I had presumed it was killed back to the ground by the winter, but it is possible my gardener carelessly wacked it down. It is planted in a shady colder part of the yard where hardy citrus has not seemed to do well.

It does appear that I see some green at the very base of one of the Ichang papeda plants, close to the ground. I don't know if it will be able to grow out.

Kishu will have some seeds in it, if it is pollinated by a different citrus variety. Maybe out of three fruits, one of them might have one or two seeds in it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nippon Orangequat
« on: July 06, 2022, 11:53:30 PM »
If it's that tall, it should be producing blooms by now. My guess is it's a combination of both being a seedling tree (by that I mean growing on its own roots, no dwarfing effect from being on grafted rootstock) and the climate (recovering after the winter making it more reluctant to bloom).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ten Degree Tangerine - Clemyuz 2-2
« on: July 06, 2022, 11:19:29 PM »
So might not be so much more cold hardy than a good satsuma variety, keraji or changsha, ...
I believe it's probably a little more hardy than Satsuma, but less hardy than Changsha.
I can't really judge how it compares with Keraji, but from the plants I grew in separate years, it would seem to me Keraji might be a little bit more hardy.

Though I have never tasted it, supposedly the fruit quality is what you would expect from a cross between the two, with about equal traits from both. Actually fresh grown Yuzu off your own tree is not bad, I can even enjoy eating it, although it is a little insipid, not a huge amount of flavor in the inner flesh (most of the flavor is in the peel), it's a little dry, not much juice, and the amount of flesh is limited due to the inside being filled with numerous large sized seeds. (Some people don't see any edible value in Yuzu whatsoever, however)

I have tasted Changsha and would imagine that the fruit quality of Clem-Yuz is slightly better, from pictures of the inside of the fruit I've seen.

In my opinion, probably Clem-Yuz needs to be back-crossed with something else before it's really useful as a hardy hybrid. Otherwise, it's just an interesting curiosity that is only borderline a little more cold tolerant than normal citrus. Like if you live just on the edge of citrus growing territory where Satsuma can barely grow but doesn't do too well.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ten Degree Tangerine - Clemyuz 2-2
« on: July 06, 2022, 09:22:48 PM »
It did not do well for me in the US Pacific Northwest, zone 8a. It was obviously less cold tolerant than Yuzu. It was almost completely killed, but managed to hang on to life for three years, slowly declining until it finally died. After the first winter it lost all its leaves, and I could later see the next two Spring seasons that the plant was trying to bud out leaf growth in two areas, but the plant was just not successful, and so the plant began declining since it was not able to grow out any leaves.

I would guess this might be a variety fit for a protected spot in zone 8b, or might be useful for further breeding purposes.

It might be able to survive in a protected spot in zone 8a in the US South. I don't know.

Everything I had outside was killed, with only three exceptions. The Yuzu bushes all died. Except for a tiny own-root Yuzu seedling that was very close to the ground, which doesn't even have any leaves but is trying to bud out some growth.
The Changsha mandarin survived and kept all its leaves, but it was planted in a more protected spot surrounded by bush growth from another plant (escallonia).
The Dunstan citrumelo survived and looks good now, though it lost nearly all of its leaves except for the branches very near to the ground. Even it experienced some die-back if a few smaller branches.
The last was a surprise, the Ichang lemon managed to recover and is sending out some good growth now, even though it was growing in a container. It suffered heavy damage. This Ichang lemon plant has not seemed to be very cold tolerant in previous years. Maybe it is inexplicable luck. The container was not too far away from the house. It survived while a Bloomsweet right next it died.

The other Yuzu plant which is located in the downtown area survived but lost all its leaves. The branches look a healthy green, with only a few grey damage areas on the branch farthest away from the trunk. It is now sending out leaf growth.

Both Ichang papeda plants appear to be dead.

July 1, 2022

Why would my 5 ft tall Seville sour orange tree have fruit that wont ripen after a year and a half?
This is not unusual if the tree is still small, and especially if it is in a Northern climate with a shorter growing season.

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