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Messages - SoCal2warm

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I saw some Musa basjoo bananas that survived one year in Tacoma, Washington, USA. Not only just the stalk but also the leaf fronds. The following year there were some "bananas" to be seen. The fruit never had time enough to ripen. The fruits still looked skinny and completely green by the time the cold season arrived again. The location was not far from the water. This was an unusually good year with mild winter temperatures. So if the fruit did not ripen then, I do not think it would be better any other year.
Maybe 50% of years, the stalks are killed back to the ground, only to quickly grow back up again the following year.

This would be 47.3 degrees N latitude, which in Europe is equivalent to being between the latitudes of Geneva and Zurich.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: N1triVoss
« on: July 03, 2024, 05:47:00 PM »
I grew two seedlings from US-852 (Changsha x trifoliate hybrid) and one of them is trifoliate, while the other appears monofoliate (single leaves).
This is not the strongest example, since the seedling is obviously second generation, appearing different from its parent US-852.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Main types of Citrumelo
« on: June 24, 2024, 06:49:49 PM »
In the U.S., the two main citrumelo varieties are Swingle and Dunstan citrumelo. There are some others but they are more obscure.
From what I've read, Dunstan has less of a bad poncirus flavor than Swingle, and is almost a little "lemon-like" in sourness. But Swingle might be a little more vigorous growing and resilient (although Dunstan seems to be decently vigorous growing and resilient growing from my observations).
Both Dunstan and Swingle are siblings originating from the same poncirus x white Duncan grapefruit cross. (For those who do not know, Duncan was considered the original gold standard of grapefruit flavor, although it had a lot of characteristic grapefruit-like bitterness and was seedy. I have tasted it and agree, in my personal opinion, it has excellent flavor and nice tartness, more concentrated and aromatic than other grapefruit varieties, though might not be for those who prefer sweet and mild grapefruits)
I think Swingle became the preferred rootstock variety because it grows more true to seed, 85 to 95% nucellar, versus Dunstan at maybe only 65 to 70%.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus Ripe in SoCal
« on: June 21, 2024, 07:05:25 PM »
Oroblanco grapefruit only ripens moderately well in the Mission Viejo area. It's still a little too close to the coast.
Probably would do a little better in the Santa Ana area, I'm thinking.

Make no mistake, the summers still get hot. But I guess the heat just does not last quite long enough throughout the day and year, and the warmth during the rest of time is just a little below optimal. And despite this, sun scorch can still be a little bit of an issue, so the plants do prefer just a little bit of partial shade while young.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: June 07, 2024, 03:27:23 AM »
After reading all your knowledge for months, I came here for the first time to share with you my plans. So hi to all.

Not surprisingly, I aim to create the ultimate zone7 Citrus hybrid that ticks all the boxes. Sure enough. But where to start it?

But hey, if the Satsuma has few seeds, how do we get anything to sow? That makes me think that Satsuma should be the pollen partner and US942 the receptive side. And if any of the seedlings are monofoliate, then we have something exciting going on. But all the seedlings should be taken care of because we can never know what Mother Nature is cooking. Then after the second or third growing  season they should be left outside for the winter and deal with the survivors (if any).

But that's all just daydreaming. I must deal with the ones I have approach to. So I ordered a Kabosu, a Keraji and a Changsha.
I will warn you that I have trialed Keraji in the US PNW climate and it did not seem able to survive in zone 8a here. Though from what I observed, it came very close to surviving. I'm sure it would have survived if I were in zone 8b.

Where you are in South-Central Europe probably has a climate type sort of half way between the US PNW and the "more normal" US Southeast. 

Changsha has survived for me in the PNW, but I think it would probably die if I were in zone 7. Although Changsha apparently can survive in 7b in the US Southeast.

If I were you, you might want to start with a hybrid between a great tasting citrus variety and poncirus, and then cross that with something like Kabosu, Keraji, or Changsha. 

You might occasionally find a fruit in Satsuma, but it is less common. I think Satsuma grown in big commercial orchards are less likely to ever have any seeds because they keep other varieties of citrus from being grown nearby, to avoid cross-pollination. I have found in a seed in a Satsuma fruit that came from a smaller farm, and was able to grow the seed into a seedling. Of course that seedling was unable to survive in this climate, despite being 6 inches tall. From what I recall, the seeds of Satsuma are statistically 90 percent nucellar, so only 1 out of 10 will have a chance of being different from the parent.

If you were going to make a hybrid from poncirus from the beginning, you might want to start with Minneola tangelo. A great fruit to begin with, and it is even a little bit more cold tolerant than a sweet orange.

I'm also growing the variety US-852, a hybrid between Changsha mandarin and trifoliate.

Someone is selling the seeds here. They weren't the freshest, and took a long time to germinate, but I found they did eventually germinate and sprout.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy Olive
« on: June 01, 2024, 11:41:01 PM »
I'm growing two varieties of osmanthus, which is in the olive family and closely related to lilac but has evergreen leaves (like olive).

location climate zone 8a, Olympia, WA, Pacific Northwest

One of the osmanthus varieties can supposedly survive zone 7 (but I think that rating is probably from the US Southeast), and the other is a little bit more tender and can only survive zone 8, but held onto half of its leaves through this winter (though it is a tiny plant, very low to the ground right now). 

I know that cold hardy olive can be grown in Portland, Oregon. Being able to ripen well is a bigger issue than whether the tree can survive there.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus aroma?
« on: June 01, 2024, 02:32:02 AM »
If you get past the resin (something of a combination of pine tar and diesel),
I want to point out this isn't really the most accurate description.
If it were only a matter of them having some flavor of pine tar and diesel, I could still eat them. But it's worse than that.
They are sour and acidic but in a very bad way.

It's definitely not just an issue of being sour in the usual way (like a lemon). They have a horrid flavor that is makes it difficult to take more than one or two small bites, making it unapproachable. Very off-putting flavor. It's not just "bitter". Bitter flavor is not really the real issue. The word "bitter" is just used to describe the flavor, for lack of a better word.

I have eaten Chinotto sour orange, and those have bitterness than makes them somewhat difficult to eat, but poncirus has other things about its flavor that make it much worse.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus aroma?
« on: June 01, 2024, 02:20:40 AM »
If you're referring to the smell on the outside of the fruits, they do have a smell. It reminds me of some sort of perfume sachet in an old woman's house, nice but not really very pleasant. That mixed with just a little bit of a cheap laundry detergent smell. It's a little more perfume floral and a little less of an edible citrus smell. I can smell a tiny hint of alpha-damascenone in there, which is the juicy scent of bruised green apples leaning slightly in an apple-rose direction, a little jam-like.

If you are referring to the inside of the fruits, I have tasted a poncirus hybrid. That is a hybrid between poncirus and an edible citrus. The fruits of the hybrid looked like a delicious orange when cut open. But the taste was more than off-putting. It's hard to describe. I could force myself to eat them, if it were a desperate survival situation, but as hard as I try, there is no way I can enjoy eating it. It's hard to describe. Something in the flavor was a little "putrid", that was the worst part to me personally, but that was only half of it.
It can apparently depend on personal preference. A few people can manage to half enjoy eating these fruits, I am told. (Though of course no one would prefer them to a real orange)

That being said, I have tasted a rare poncirus from a tree that didn't have the usual bad poncirus flavor. It was of poor eating quality, but had close to none of the usual horrid characteristically bad poncirus flavor. It did not have too much flavor, was rather insipid, but did have a little pine flavor, a little rosinous, with even less citrus flavor, the tiniest hint of lime and tangerine, I would say.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the vigor of ichang lemon.
It definitely has a fair to good amount of vigor and can grow well, and recover.

However, I will warn that from my experience, and judging by my observation of it growing in the PNW climate, it's not extremely tolerant of cold and can suffer damage.
It needs to be planted in a protected location, sheltered from winds, ideally close to the foundation of a building or brick wall, in zone 8a. And I get the feeling it wouldn't survive long term in the coldest part of zone 8a, bordering right on the edge of zone 7. But that's in the PNW climate. I can't say how it would behave in the US Southeast.

It's probably more of a zone 8b plant, but the climate here is solidly in zone 8a.

I remember one winter, the Ichang lemon, which was growing in a container outside at the time, did not do too well, ended up suffering severe damage and die-back, while a Bloomsweet in a container right next to it sailed through just fine. But later, the Bloomsweet planted in the ground in a protected spot ended up dying one winter, while the Ichang lemon in the container survived. (This was despite the Bloomsweet planted right next to a south-facing wall, and covered with a paper grocery bag during the coldest part of winter, with a gallon container of water set right up against the plant's trunk, in an attempt to help resist freezing)

The Changsha and Dunstan citrumelo are both doing well, have both grown out a lead branch over 4 feet tall. Both held onto all their leaves. I didn't really see any specific leaf damage, but the leaves did not really look the best at the end of the winter. The previous year's leaves are still satisfactorily healthy and alive though.

Here's a picture of the Ichang lemon again

May 27, 2024

You can see it's vigorously pushing out lots of new leaf growth, and the plant held onto its leaf growth from last year, which is still looking good.
It survived through the winter and was not covered. But it is planted up against a wall, and is in a protected spot. It mostly only gets morning sun in its location.

I'm happily surprised it is doing well. (Again, it is not Ichang papeda)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus from Seattle Arboretum
« on: May 05, 2024, 11:45:04 AM »
The poncirus trees may be a little bit difficult to find.

According to a map, they are in the heart of the arboretum, and will require navigating through a maze of more "off-road" trails to get there.

Starting from the visitor center, there are two main paths that head south through the grounds. Stay on the path on the side facing the road (the road with car traffic) that has a pedestrian bridge across it. This refers to the wider path, and most of the length of this path is (as of 2024) paved in gravel. I believe it is called "Azalea Way". It should be relatively flat. (There is another asphalt-paved path that runs closer to the road. It is not this path) Head south and pass the "Woodland garden" on your left. Keep going a long distance until you get to the hybrid rhododendron section. Just before the hybrid rhododendron section there should be a smaller inconspicuous dirt trail to the left going up the hill. This will take you to another "main" dirt trail which meanders through the center of the arboretum, running between the two main pathways, in what seems like a more wild covered forest area. The poncirus trees are directly across from this dirt trail, on the other side opposite from the hybrid rhododendrons. If you were to draw a triangle between the hybrid rhododendron area, the Asian maple collection, and the Magnolia family collection, the poncirus trees would be in the center of that area.

If it helps at all, the spot is not as far south as the Vibernums and Mountain Ashes sections (which in any case you will not see because they are on the far west and east ends of the arboretum, but I mean if you were trying to see how far south it is on a map).

Edit: After visiting the Arboretum, I noticed there was also a Poncirus (Flying Dragon) planted near the Chinese section, the circular path that connects to the main path near the "Pacific Connections" section.

Blenheim is listed at 400 chill hours, and is still my favorite. On the negative side, it is not the most disease resistant, and alternate bears.
Speaking from experience, Blenheim (also sometimes called Royal) still produces well in zone 10 (not 10a or 10b but right in the middle) but tends to only produce fruit every other year (once every 2 years). In this climate zone, the tree might do better in a spot that has just a little bit of shade and that doesn't get too hot, necessary for being able to accumulate adequate "chill" during winter.

Blenheim is a very excellent apricot, in size and taste.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus ichangensis x sinensis (194)
« on: April 08, 2024, 03:44:55 AM »
I bought mine from Adavo and it is marked as Shangjuan.
Probably totally off topic to this discussion, but the modern Chinese romanization of "Shangjuan" would be Xiang-yuan. This is really not the best name because it could also refer to citron (Citrus medica) or pomelo, in a more general sense. 
"Xiang", by itself, translates as "fragrant". The "yuan" part is a character that shows the symbol of "tree" or "plant" but pronounced in a special way, and most commonly associated specifically with citron. It's possible the sound of the word "yuan" originally derived from the word for "round" or "ball".

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2024, 01:45:57 AM »
I can share my experiences of an Ichang lemon growing in the U.S. Pacific Northwest climate region, climate zone 8a.

It started off in a container outside.
One year, during a cold winter, the plant was severely damaged and suffered much die-back. It was much more damaged than two Bloomsweet grapefruit plants that were right next to it. So I thought this showed that Ichang lemon was not very freeze tolerant.
But then another year it went through a winter colder than the first, and the Ichang lemon seemed to survive through it well, while the two Bloomsweet grapefruit plants ended up being killed.
The plants growing in containers were not far from the house, and got only moderate sun exposure during the winter.

Then I put the Ichang lemon in the ground, in a very sheltered spot on the south-facing side of the house, up against a wall. It was not covered or otherwise protected in any way. It was a moderate winter, with mild temperatures most of the time, but three days of moderate freeze, outside temperatures probably going down to maybe around 13.5 to 14.5 F ( -10 C).
It seems to have survived well, and as of March 15, the leaves are not looking too unhealthy, looks like it will do well and grow a lot this year.

I can also point out I planted two small Ichang papeda plants in the ground, further away from the house, and both of them did not end up surviving. Declined a little bit after going through the first winter, and then were finally killed by the second winter, even though the second winter was not as cold as the first. Yuzu seems to grow faster and recover better than Ichang papeda here, but Yuzu can also show decline and be killed.
In this climate, it seems very important to plant in a protected spot, very close to a house, in an area that is not as open and will not get much wind blowing across.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: March 16, 2024, 01:20:49 AM »
I'd love to have thermostatically controlled heat mats but given the quantity of trays I'd need to heat I'm not wanting to invest the money in them. I'm hoping that I still see a decent enough germination rate without them.

I found that heating mats do not seem to work very well, since they result in excessive drying out of soil. (Moisture tends to move from warmer areas away to cooler areas) 
What I found works better is having an enclosure to be able to contain humidity in the air, and then having a small heat source within the enclosure. Even possibly a heat mat under an open container of water. This way the warmth and humidity can migrate to the seedlings, rather than the seedlings being directly warmed and then losing moisture to the surrounding air.

Since you have a clear plastic lid to cover it, heat mats may be able to work. But it is still going to result in much condensation.

Both LED lights or fluorescent will work equally well, and special LED grow lights do not really work any better than normal LED light. Theoretically, LED is more efficient and uses less energy, but in reality none of the energy is really "wasted" since the wasted energy all turns into heat, which is desirable in this situation. If this is being kept in an unheated room, you might even consider insulation panels that are coated on one side with reflective metal foil, to help hold in the heat.

Here is the Ichang Lemon. Not looking too bad. Right up against the wall of the house.

Here is the Dunstan citrumelo. The top branch which goes up (and is too tall to fit into the picture) is 5 feet and 7 inches high (170 cm).
It's doing very well, still has its leaves.

pictures taken February 26, 2024

The Ichangquat did not end up surviving and is now dead. It seems to have suffered a gradual decline, finally being unable to recover after one winter, even though it had gone through colder winters before.
(I will say that it was in a colder spot in the yard, away from the house, that is shaded most of the day during the winter season. An Arctic Frost - own root - was previously unable to survive there, so maybe it is just not the best spot)

There is still another ichangquat seedling (not a trifoliate hybrid) that has a full inch of alive green at its base, but it has not been able to put out any leaf growth over the last 2 years. Perhaps this year might be different. The green color does look like a healthy alive green though. The top of the seedling was killed back during a colder winter.
(It's also away from the house but in a sunnier spot)

Furthermore, if multiple research projects reach the same point and one proposes something different, science is consolidated by evidence and because its results are repeatable, not by exceptions.
Unfortunately I think you are confusing "science" with what this actually is.
(You are making an error in reasoning known as equivocation fallacy)

You are treating this as if these are different experiments that each prove the same thing. In actuality, each of these studies are just examining certain markers. Probably many of those markers overlap between the different studies.
It is not really fair to say that because multiple studies have pointed to the same result that it means this is much greater evidence than if it were just one of these studies.

It might be more appropriate to view this in terms of mathematical statistics, but even to do that you would have to compare exact genetic markers between these studies, which would be difficult (for us).

If some people here reinterpret research results based on taste and personal impressions, turn lemon into citron, turn the results upside down to suit their own personal preferences (I'm not talking about you, Lauta!), then this is not helpful, it creates confusion and is pure speculation and certainly not scientific.
I accept your criticism, and you have a point, but I think the specific example you pointed to, turn lemon into citron, is a really bad example to point to, on your part.

True, I did a lot of other speculation in my post, but that specific thing (lemon into citron) is a very obvious thing, I think. I might not have precisely logically derived it from the specific data, but it is common sense.

Unfortunately I am afraid there may be a little bit of a language barrier between us, so communication about some of these precise things might be difficult.

passiflora (passion fruit, beautiful exotic looking flowers)
Guinea gold vine (Hibbertia scandens, medium to slow growing, somewhere between vine and bush, big yellow flowers)
there are different types of jasmine, honeysuckle
possibly certain rambler roses (though you will need to be selective because many do not grow as well in tropical climates, maybe Lady Bank's rose or Devoniensis)
Crossvine (Bignonia capreolata, pretty flowers but does not have any scent)
Jade vine (Strongylodon macrobotrys, definitely tropical, stunning unusual colored flowers)
Odontadenia Macrantha
Artabotrys hexapetalus has a little bit of a vine habit

However, the allele-sharing test clearly refutes this proposal, with 31 out of 123 DNA markers not shared between yuzu and C. ichangensis. Because the cytotype of C. ichangensis was unique, but the lemon-type cytotype was found in 13 varieties "

"These observations hypothesized that C. ichangensis could an offspring of an unidentified papeda lemon, and yuzu might also be an offspring of this unidentified papeda."
It's interesting, but I think you have to take the interpretation of these genetic marker analyses with a huge grain of salt and some skepticism.

C. ichangensis is a lot more closely related to citron (C. medica) than most any of the other varieties (despite the huge difference in cold tolerance, with citron having less cold tolerance than even most ordinary citrus fruits).

So we could postulate there are "citron-type" genes in C. ichangensis, convenient genetic markers that ichangensis shares with citron.
If ichangensis hybridized with something else (such as mangshanensis), then not all the ichangensis genes would have carried over. It could be possible all the citron-type genes did not get passed on. Especially if Yuzu went through a series of sexual propagations to get to its present gene profile.

When the Japanese researchers refer to "lemon type", I assume it is very likely what they actually mean is "citron type". (citron is the primary ancestor of lemon, where lemon gets most of its distinct character from)

So it might only appear that ichangensis had some other ancestry that yuzu does not. That is a possibility.

Another possibility (which I find to be much less likely) is that human civilization might have grown potted citron near the Yangtze River around Yichang, and then the citron plant contaminated the gene pool of the entire population of native papedas.
Citron used to be a common ornamental plant in Chinese civilization.
For that to have happened, something in the citron genes would have had to confer some advantage that the original papeda species did not have, which I think is not so likely.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Possible Sacaton citrumelo x Ten Degree Tangerine
« on: February 13, 2024, 11:45:06 PM »
A hybrid with Ten Degree Tangerine could have a lot of potential.

I tried growing Ten Degree Tangerine, and it obviously seemed to have a lot less cold tolerance than Yuzu. It wasn't immediately killed, but seemed to decline after going through two or three winters, and wasn't able to put out the growth to be able to recover.
Ten Degree is a Clementine x Yuzu cross, so presumably it has some cold tolerant Yuzu genes but those genes appear to be mostly recessive. In my opinion it might take another cross to get those dormant Yuzu genes to be functional.

And crossing a poncirus hybrid like citrumelo with another cold hardy variety which does not have any poncirus genes sounds like a great way to be able to eliminate the bad tasting poncirus traits.

What I notice is if you look on a map of China, Hong Kong to Mangshan mountain to Changsha to Yichang are all in a straight line going north.
(each separated by a distance of about 245 kilometers by air)

Mangshan is where Citrus mangshanensis comes from, Changsha - the Changsha mandarin, and Yichang is the area where ichangensis comes from.
So it's probably not a coincidence.

This does sort of suggest to me that more likely Yuzu came about caused by human civilization. Trees of one of the two species were probably moved out of their native range, which allowed cross-pollination to happen.

When he extends the graph he adds the genetic composition of many varieties and hybrids and it is elucidated that "MS = mangshanyeju" is the father of Yuzu, he means that this variety is the one that created yuzu.  the other parent indicates it as C. ichangensis.  (like all the other research works that we put in this Post).  He states that through multiple investigations it is confirmed that Yuzu is a hybrid of C. ichangensis x C. reticulata (from the population = mangshanyeju).
The pictures of mangshanyeju mandarin fruits (Citrus mangshanensis) do look extremely similar to Yuzu.

One thing I will point out is that most pictures of mangshanyeju show very elongated leaves, which is not how the leaves of Yuzu look.
But I have found one picture of mangshanyeju showing more regular stocky leaves, which look like yuzu.
(accession MS3 from Lun Wang et al. 2018 that came from Mangshan Mountain, shown in the French language Wikipedia page)

Only "moderate frost"?? We had the most severe freeze we've had here since 2014, both in terms of absolute low (14.7F here in my yard, 15F at the official Seattle station) and also in terms of the duration of low temperatures (6 days where the high was around or below freezing). I had solid ground at least a couple inches deep by the end of it, couldn't break through with a shovel.

My unprotected yuzu seedling mostly defoliated (with some retaining only the first leaf segment),
To be totally fair, I was on vacation.
But Seattle must have gotten a colder wave than Olympia this winter because none of my citrus lost their leaves so far, and in fact the leaves still look good, the hue of green does not look too unhealthy.

According to a past weather record I looked up, it says it reached a low in Olympia of 12 degrees F in the very early morning of January 14 (2024), and the nights were cold the next 2 days due to clear skies. I doubt it actually went down quite that low where my plants were because the weather station is located in a colder part of Olympia. If the weather station says 12, then where I am it would probably have been more like 13.5 or even 14.5

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poorman Orange/New Zealand Grapefruit
« on: February 12, 2024, 04:07:24 PM »
I have not tasted this "New Zealand grapefruit", but I have had the opportunity to taste Seville orange.
I would imagine the New Zealand grapefruit probably has a lot in common with Seville orange. The peel of Seville orange is not very edible, but is more edible than a regular orange and is useful for making marmalade.
Also may be similar to the Japanese variety natsudaidai, almost a little similar to grapefruit, which is of poorer fruit quality but is notable for having virtually no bitterness in the white pith, and so is suitable for making a marmalade.

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