The Tropical Fruit Forum

Great idea. I tend to like physical signs but more information would be cool. Dji makes cool drones too for ag-mapping and data.

I have 4 growing in my yard, I love pawpaws, they take a long time from seed but are worth the wait, but you will have to hand pollinate if you want fruit. the flowers are pollinated by carrion flies not bees.

Not true, this patch was not pollinated by hand, covered in fruit.

It does take a long time youre right, only the 10 year old trees are fruiting in this patch.

Quote from: driftwood on August 12, 2021, 10:14:25 PM

It's possible this patch I found began with a planting

They were also cultivated in pre-Columbian times, so there are some "wild" patches that are likely descended from those old groves.

I think this one might be more recent but it is in a historic area, never know

I'll let you guys know how they are

looks amazing, will you sell seeds?

There's an amazing farm stand in Rincon by Valley Center. Have gotten good cherimoyas and other things. Theres a couple good farmers markets. Del Mar farmers Market, Carlsbad farmers market, and OB farmers market are all good

Quote from: driftwood on August 04, 2021, 11:12:44 PM

This is why I am interested in purchasing a property with a home already on it. That and I can potentially rent a room or give it to a friend who will do some chores. I am debt free and have a stack of cash but I fear purchasing raw land and getting a well dug could wipe out a large chunk of it.

This is the right line of thinking. Infrastructure is important. Electricity is typically just cost of electrician to install your panel (needs to be upsized for a big 5 hp pump), septic systems can be designed by someone else, and you then you install it, a home well is not a irrigation well, I got quoted $12k for a 6 inch well to 60 foot and 4 inch well to 30 foot. Im reconsidering just renting a backhoe and digging a hole as deep as possible, backfill with 57 stone and install a cheap 4 inch well into it. It's all about getting creative and exploring every possible way to save on big expenses.

Yup you're right there are ways to get creative and slash costs with things like that. I was able to save a ton money on getting a new well pump hooked up once by doing all the digging and prep work. He came in and finished the job and saved us over $3-4k

Quote from: TheGivingTree on August 04, 2021, 11:47:06 AM

Awesome post. My only advice would be to not wait on buying. Get your plan, figure out your budget and get it going. If not purchasing outright, owner financing is still a thing but harder to find.

Land (in So FLo) is only going to get more expensive in my opinion. Feel free to PM me if youre looking  in FL. Good luck bro!

thanks man!! Where are you located? You got facebook or instagram? So far ive checked out Naples, Punta Gorda, Pine Island/Bokeelia, Homestead/Miami. Ive been a few times this year but havent seen anything I loved that wasnt ridiculously overpriced in my humble opinion.

Honestly my budget is a pretty big range. As in the US I would qualify for financing and possibly a USDA loan if the property is eligible. In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would need cash or funding.

In the US my budget for a property 1-10 acre with a 1 or 2 bedroom house is $500,000.

In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would be looking below $200,000 with a house. or Below $100,000 for just land. Ive considered doing both eventually and keeping a genetic library in a place like puerto rico and flying between FL and PR.

We are transitioning from the east coast to n ft myers area. We grow on two properties in Hendry and Lee county, one with irrigation one without.  We really like the west coast compared to palm beach/broward, but loxahatchee and the acreage is a sweet place if you can find something that fits the budget. Anything north of ft myers may be tough on in ground tropicals long term.

Financing for land is possible, we put 60% cash down on Hendry county property, owner financing. It was perfect for us and luckily the land value has increased quite a bit the past year. No buildings, just raw land.

Ownership is everything imo.
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Good to know man! is there any particular reason why you like the gulf coast better? Is it just too much city/traffic on the east coast?

Punta Gorda and North Ft. Myers is the very most northern I would consider.

I agree with you that ownership is everything. I have had good and bad experiences care taking before. Either way it's death by a thousand cuts, I would rather choose my own blade. I will take the hardships and the good moments equally

Plus owning is high incentive to work harder. Not many paid landscapers/caretakers want to go above and beyond.

28 here also, I just wanna grow fruits! (and ganja) haha

My property is in Corralitos, but there is a really nice range of land throughout the SC mountains that has major potential for growing subtropicals.  North County has the redwoods and some really epic locations, but also a lot of cold ones. South County (watsonville, corralitos) has the rolling Oak woodlands and really really reliable water tables. 

If your ever out this way definitely stop by!

Good shit Natty frootz. I turn 28 in a few months. I will be on the west coast this fall and might take a trip up north, would love to connect. Do you have facebook or instagram?

Quote from: Julie on August 04, 2021, 09:59:09 PM

Quote from: Galatians522 on August 04, 2021, 08:32:24 PM

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!

I don’t specifically know much about sugarcane, but this is not really correct. Homeowners use a lot of pesticides, true, but residential pesticides are all based on pyrethrum and would be applied with a hand or backpack sprayer. In the agricultural settling they can use far more toxic pesticides (organophosphates, fumigants, etc) which are banned from home use and they can be applied by huge tractor sprayers and even crop dusters (aerial spraying) for large fields which cause more drift. I think as long as you are careful about the immediate neighbors you will be ok like you said.

You make a good point about the potential for drift that I had not considered. That would be a game changer if you were adjacent to an operation that had not established good buffers and spray protocall. I would like, with your permission, to present some of the reasoning behind my statement above. My goal is not to change your mind or what you think, but to express that there is logic and direct observation/research behind what I said.

Air blast sprayers definitely create much smaller droplets that carry further. However, it is the smaller droplets that enable them to use less active ingredient per acre then the same chemical applied with a pump sprayer (which has variable pressure and often a poorly adjusted nozzle). When using a pump sprayer, many people also will mix the solution a little strong and then over apply the mixed solution (using everything in the sprayer) because there is no other way to get rid of the stuff. Interestingly enough, I am told that pyrethrins are the most common pesticide used in our local citrus groves (I think this is true for other Ag as well). Also, while it may not be the most popular homeowner pesticide, Malathion (an organophosphate) is currently available at many Home Depots for homeowner use.

Fumagants are rairly used in agriculture these days from what I have observed. When they are used, they are sprayed directly on the soil and covered immediately with an impermiable barrier for a specified amount of time. I am fairly certain that aerial application would not be allowed. The one area where strong fumigants are still in common use is the pest control industry. Virtually every house in the state has been treated with fumigants under the slab that will last in the soil for 10 years or more!

I won't hijack the thread any longer.
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Great info Galatians, while it isnt the specific topic of the post. This is very relevant information to the post. As it helps eliminate certain properties and understand pesticides better. I am far from from a purist, as I believe a lot of man made environmental toxins are pretty much unavoidable, because of the inherent nature of air and water.

I live in homestead which is a high pesticide use area and I know farmers that deal with this so I do have a lot of experience with this issue. I’m shocked that malathion is sold in Home Depot but even still the bottom line is many more toxic pesticides can be used on food when they cannot be used by homeowners (other types of organophosphates). I believe that the pesticides used under the slab of homes are organophosphates not fumigants. The chemical used to tent homes for termites is a fumigant.  But the application of these in homes isn’t a daily occurrence. Fumigants are used a lot here to sterilize the soil before planting, they are used most heavily for strawberries. If you see the rows with plastic covers those are how they inject the fumigant into the soil. My main concern is getting caught in the spray drift of a more toxic pesticide. I agree with you that the homeowner situation is bad too, neither is ideal.

interesting point Julie. Though sometimes the plastic row covering is only to conserve water/prevent evaporation

I bought 13 acres in Santa Cruz, California last year and am incredibly stoked! I have done some restoration work in Hawaii and have a decent understanding of what growing in a tropical climate is like, which is largely why I have purchased land in California.

Reasons I bought land in Northern California:
I have a really good well (with old AG pump, 500 gpm) that is in a pretty reliable water table. Salt water intrusion will likely be a problem in the future, but I probably have time.
The market is completely untapped.
Importation restrictions from Florida or Hawaii leave untapped markets bare, or with subpar fruit.
There is no tropical/ few subtropical pests or diseases to fight here (hooray for winter).
Management of weeds is easy (dry summers, less weeds).

I was working part time managing the propagation and teaching an internship about grassland ecology and restoration but have gone full time into my own endeavors as of recently.  I was working 7 days a week and am now really grateful to have at least a day off! haha. Utimately never could have afforded the land with my pay. My family purchased the land so pretty grateful and privileged in that way.

I am about a year or so out from getting my first production crop of Babaco papaya and will have Avocados coming online next year as well as various other grafted and non grafted subtropicals: Eugenias mainly.

I plan to implement different aspects into my farm and nursery as I progress and hope to apply for grants for some research projects I'd like to take on. Some projects are: Cultivation of CA native wildflowers for nursery stock/landscaping, studying physiological cold tolerance of these subtropical/tropical species, making subtropicals ubiquitous in peoples landscapes,  maybe a landscaping business, education/tourism? I think that diversifying will certainly be important in making this a feasible enterprise. 

Hey dude cool stuff! It sounds really awesome and 13 acres with a well is probably perfect. I have considered the area actually and have spent time in Santa Cruz. There are still some *semi* affordable properties up in the mountains there (compared to in Santa Cruz or SF). Though I wasn't sure how much the climate changed between the elevations. You make a good point about the untapped market and you are definitely correct about diversification. However I would dial in one or two projects first. I am also multi disciplinary in my interests and skills. I have been wanting to combine my vegetable and herb gardens, with my edible mushroom skills, as well as landscaping and installs. Going to focus on one to start however and maybe just do some landscaping on the side. Would be very cool to get more native plants and stuff in peoples yards. I got a book about the indigenous ways of tending to the land in California. Haven't gotten to start it yet though... I have about 30 ahead of it haha

I think you're on the right track. A lot of people on TFF are probably thinking of similar ideas. My big goal is to find something with multiple units which helps qualify for larger loans and also has consistent income that will be helpful to keep the project alive. When I say central california, I should be more specific when I say central COAST - interior is torched, literally.

I've spoken with a lot of people about well drilling here in CA and you really should try to find somewhere with established wells. It is the life blood of your project and a couple collapsed wells or drills in the wrong places searching for it can cost you a substantial amount of cheddar that could prevent you from getting this going.

Quality soil and sun exposure, productive well, home with extra room(s) or units, garage for tools and vehicles. Those are needs for me if I were on your path. It's helpful if those are in place so you can get to work right away.

K-rimes, Yup you are definitely right about infrastructure. A house, a well, and a garage are non negotiable for me. Luckily I know what to look for on properties in terms of water source, zoning, utilites, and even soil type and testing is something I am very familiar with. I have been stacking up this knowledge with the hopes that one day I find my home

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!
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good to know! I definitely wouldnt want to be in an HOA or by any grassholes or golf courses. However I do know large nurseries love to spray. For some reason I heard that sugarcane uses a lot of pesticide -- but I have no knowledge of sugar cane farming so dont quote that.

My thoughts are sell plants not fruit. Fruit is too perishable and it takes too long to come into production. I started selling plants on eBay 6 yrs ago as a hobby to cover a few expenses. By yr four I sold more than I paid for my place and 3x what my greenhouse cost. Next yr if I were younger I could net 150K but at nearly 80 am thinking about selling out. My margins are 75-80%. Sales from a 1700 sqft greenhouse are 90K. Before that fruit I sold from the same greenhouse was maybe $500 a yr.

There are house plants selling 10-20K each. That's not going to happen but there must be plants you'd find interesting that have a strong market. If possible sell online by auction and ship as widely as possible. I'm starting, growing out, selling, and shipping nearly 1000 plants a yr. A young man should do much better.

Good advice friend, If you weren't in Texas I would probably be interested in your business. honestly the fruit would be mostly for me, I dont desire to grow metric tons. My thinking is a small orchard would be nice to get some passive fruit and income growing while working intensely on an 1-2 acre nursery area. Those figures are good to know. I think I could manage popping enough seeds and selling a few thousand plants per year

Great discussion everybody. I really appreciate it

I have been looking for land nearby (SE Pennsylvania) to build more greenhouses, best I have seen so far is about 15-20k/acre for flat fields 5-15acres nearby.  It seems that by far the most important factor is zoning.  Anything that could become a housing subdivision is priced far, far higher.

yup rural and agriculture zoning is key especially for business and farm stand and such. My thinking is that there arent a lot of 1-20 acre plots available right now. But as more and more of these multi thousand acre old farm parcels get divided there will be more in the future. I wouldnt be interested in trying PA, I grew up in Ohio. The great lakes dump snow and there is almost 300 cloudy days a year.

I've had my eyes out around Central California to find something affordable with good water, but it's a real challenge to find something that is reasonably priced, is in a quality micro climate for tropicals, and importantly has enough water to irrigate as many trees as I'd like to plant. I did look deeply into Puerto Rico and have visited the island many times, but there are water issues there sometimes there too (if using city water, which frequently doesn't work day on day off). It does rain a lot though so you'd likely not have much to worry about unless you were near Ponce, the southern side is much more arid and hot. Up above Ponce in the mountains is where they grow a lot of coffee, but it was decimated by hurricanes last I heard. The hurricanes and the severity of them increasing with global warming has turned me off of PR for now - you could invest a decade or two and then get totally wiped out.

Costa Rica is promising, and I've always had a soft spot for Brazil but the flight times that far really make it a place you can't freely go to and fro from. Costa Rica / Mexico is pretty much ideal for accessibility and pricing.

My experience tending to my garden here which is only a scant 1.2 acre is that you'd really have trouble keeping track of anything larger than 5 acres. It's not so much the trees themselves, it's irrigation and piping problems which are always breaking or getting plugged up, keeping the well running, having back up power for the well or heating needs in winter and so on. Even the best laid plans can completely crumble under an unforeseen circumstance. The ideal location, imo, is one where the plants you grow are so well suited for the climate that they don't need that much additional help - zone-pushing as a farming career sounds daunting.

It's a good thing I have worked in irrigation and landscaping and designed large drip systems. I feel like that and my ability to take care of baby plants lends itself well to this trade. In addition, I am a graphic designer and copywriter for internet marketing, which will help drive sales. Zone pushing with fruit trees sounds horrible as, one greenhouse malfunction could lead to destruction of all the trees. (a sprinkler at night in central florida would be a little different).

If I were you I would reconsider central California. As I am sure you are aware of the horrible water politics going on in the central valley. I would rather take my chances with a hurricane, as I am pretty sure the central valley of CA might turn into a hellscape desert very soon. At least San Diego has Mt. Palomar.

Costa Rica, and Puerto Rico are high contenders. But I feel like I could make more money in florida with a nursery business (stiffer competition though)

I repaired homes in Puerto Rico the year after hurricane maria. You are right about city water, I am familiar with the micro climates of the island though and there are lots of farms who take advantage of rain and river water. I would not be relying on the island for utilities. Utuado and Las Marias are amazing places and there are some semi-abandoned coffee, cacao, plantain farms that would be amazing to bring back to life. As for the Hurricane, I know many trees were damaged but now almost 4 years later its pretty much back to Pre-Maria conditions. The problem for PR was that the infrastructure and houses were so neglected prior to the hurricane hitting. I repaired peoples roofs and some of them told me they hadnt patched or coated their roof in 20 years.

My sights on are on the tropics. At this point I won't accept anything less than subtropical. I can deal with not having soursops and durian but I need to have guava, citrus, papaya, cherimoya.

Awesome post. My only advice would be to not wait on buying. Get your plan, figure out your budget and get it going. If not purchasing outright, owner financing is still a thing but harder to find.

Land (in So FLo) is only going to get more expensive in my opinion. Feel free to PM me if youre looking  in FL. Good luck bro!

thanks man!! Where are you located? You got facebook or instagram? So far ive checked out Naples, Punta Gorda, Pine Island/Bokeelia, Homestead/Miami. Ive been a few times this year but havent seen anything I loved that wasnt ridiculously overpriced in my humble opinion.

Honestly my budget is a pretty big range. As in the US I would qualify for financing and possibly a USDA loan if the property is eligible. In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would need cash or funding.

In the US my budget for a property 1-10 acre with a 1 or 2 bedroom house is $500,000.

In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would be looking below $200,000 with a house. or Below $100,000 for just land. Ive considered doing both eventually and keeping a genetic library in a place like puerto rico and flying between FL and PR.

It’s a good topic and I know something about this.
In the 80’s I moved to Costa Rica to start a fruit and spice farm.  I moved to a depressed area that had great tourism potential, bought land cheap, and started planting.  I started a nursery that is still operating and I planted lots of fruit trees.  Fortunately, it all came together after about 8 years when I was able to stop working on the side and live off of farm production and consultations mostly. We also have a farm tour. 
What made this work so well was a combination of luck and timing as well as vision and hard work.  To find good farmland cheap you might look at Puerto Rico as a place with potential.  There needs to be an economy where locals can buy your products.  You have to have a judicial system that protects your investment.  This rules out a lot of places. Panama might be a possibility but I feel it doesn’t have the fresh fruit consumers that CR has. 
My model is to sell locally at the farmers market, fruit stand, farm sales.  This works well in Costa Rica but it’s hard to find land inexpensive here now.  A reference price for farmland in our area would be about $4000 an acre.  There’s cheaper land around but farther from areas with services and economic activity.  Actually, people are pouring in from the US and buying up places all over CR these months.
Peter

Yeah you are right about locals needing to buy the fruit, I know some good markets to move some fruit but I think it would be mainly supplemental income and not sustenance. I believe in Puerto Rico exporting the fruit to the US isnt really allowed I dont think. . I know there are pest transmission issues but it seems silly because we import fruit from other carribbean island nations to the US. I believe you are able to ship plants to the US though... which makes me think I could plant out lots of seedlings and sell them by mail to the US. Focus on a nursery instead of fruit production.

Ive never been to Costa Rica. I have a friend there. I am considering a trip soon. I should check it out before I make any judgements, as this new wave of expats buying up the land has sort of turned me off to the idea. (Woo-woo new age hippies drive me crazy). Though 4000$ per acre is still pretty cheap. Cheaper than Punta Gorda, FL still. I appreciate the insights Peter, what area are you living in? How big is your plot? how many trees can you comfortably manage by yourself and still have time to surf or hike? I thought about doing a program there, but I don't want a permaculture design certificate. But rather a more intensive fruit learning experience from people who actually do this for a living. Not to get college credit. I guess I should try to get in touch with more people and see who needs help

Good evening everybody.

Normally I am intrigued on topics pretty much only on plants, trees, and seeds but tonight I have something else on my mind. This is mainly questions for anyone who grows fruit professionally. (No shade on balcony and backyard growers, feel free to chime in as well)

I am a young man from the US and love growing my seeds in containers and eating fresh fruit from the market and learning about botany in general. But I deeply desire to grow my own orchard.

I know the hard work it can take as I have rented a 15 acre farm in New Mexico in the past and have lived in San Diego County and Puerto Rico and been a caretaker for various properties. By trade I am a graphic designer, landscaper, and carpenter. However it seems like land ownership is constantly out of reach for me and I no longer have a desire in renting someone's land and improving it for their benefit.

It seems like good agricultural land is going up drastically in price. Not to mention areas that are subtropical and tropical like SD and Homestead. Even the gulf coast of florida is going up. I am not very interested in becoming a zone pusher and try greenhouses in places like arizona or texas, I would rather work in a place where I am able to grow the plants I would like to grow.

I do know that we are about to experience a pretty large land shift over the next decade, due to large land owners aging. I am willing to be patient for the right time and the right piece of land and the right price. I am building up my knowledge and skills, asking questions, and meeting people. But I want to know, how many people grow fruit as their sole income? Or do people mainly have a different profession? and move to growing fruit as they acquire land? Or was the land already in your family?

I am putting out the call to the universe for a teacher. I am looking for experienced fruit growers or nursery owners who have some advice for a young guy starting out or maybe want an apprentice in the future. Do you think there are any older farm owners who would be interested in a sort of "passing on"/rent to own kind of deal as you teach the ins and outs? I am also open to doing a longer intensive study through several seasons with somebody here in the US or even another country. The 12 tribes in Bokeelia tried to recruit me to their mango farm, but I didn't feel like joining a cult this year. Not interested in wwoofing and giving away free labor either. I have been down that road already

I will probably be going back to work at a plant nursery soon that mainly deals with landscaping plants. Part of me wants to move back to Puerto Rico as land is the cheapest there for me. But if my savings run out, I am not sure what I would supplement with while trees get established and I am running the farm.

What would you tell your younger self if you were in my position? How did you get to be where you are today? How hard is it to get a job maintaining an orchard or nursery operation? Also, if you werent were you are now and could purchase anywhere, where would it be?

resources, good advice, bad advice, is all welcome. Thanks for reading. Be well everyone