Dream atemoya on pond apple stock looking sad

[TheDom]

Question: What do y'all think is wrong with these two Dream atemoyas? Main sign is drooping leaves.

Details: Back in Feb I got three Dream plants from Wayne, two on pond apple rootstock and one on cherimoya, with one of the pond apple ones going to my friend. About a month ago mine started getting droopy leaves, with it looking generally better in the mornings and by late afternoon the leaves would be hanging almost straight down. It has somewhat improved, but now my friend's plant is also doing the same thing, only worse and actually dropping leaves. Both are getting plenty of water, and if they weren't on pond apple rootstock I'd think maybe flooding was the issue. Given that they are both on pond apple, we are concerned delayed incompatibility is rearing its ugly head. The graft junctions are gnarly looking cleft grafts, but otherwise appear to be solid. Any guesses on what the problem could be? 

Both of us had let some suckers grow a little where they'd formed maybe peanut sized nodules on the rootstock portion. It seems like cutting those off flush with the trunk has helped mine, but I'm not 100% sure of the timeline on mine making a partial recovery.
My friend's Dream.

My less sad Dream.


My other Dream on cherimoya rootstock.

[ajtropicals]

I got one "dream" from Wayne few weeks back, though I didn't pay attention to the root stock when I picked it up, I noticed it is on pond apple too later when I read the tag in the pot. I planted it in ground few days back, looking good so far. I will post if it declines over time.

[Mike T]

Pond apple is not a good rootstock option for atemoya.Atemoya,cherimoya and sugar apple are better options.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Pond apple is not a good rootstock option for atemoya.Atemoya,cherimoya and sugar apple are better options.

tell that to Wayne Clifton's tree.

If I'm not mistaken, he has a Dream grafted onto Pond Apple, doing very well, fruiting prolifically for many years.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=492.msg126756#msg126756

so your blanket statement is not totally accurate.

not all Annona glabras are created equally....some are more compatible with Atemoyas than others.

[bsbullie]

Pond apple is not a good rootstock option for atemoya.Atemoya,cherimoya and sugar apple are better options.

tell that to Wayne Clifton's tree.

If I'm not mistaken, he has a Dream grafted onto Pond Apple, doing very well, fruiting prolifically for many years.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=492.msg126756#msg126756

so your blanket statement is not totally accurate.

not all Annona glabras are created equally....some are more compatible with Atemoyas than others.

Same statement goes for Ilama on glabra.  I have seen some thrive and I have seen some tank...

[TheDom]

Adam, in that link it seems pretty unclear whether Wayne's are on pond apple or not. I think I remember him saying he didn't remember when I asked him back in Feb when I picked these up.

[TheDom]

Same statement goes for Ilama on glabra.  I have seen some thrive and I have seen some tank...
[/quote]

When you've seen them tank before, is this what the tanking looked like?

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Adam, in that link it seems pretty unclear whether Wayne's are on pond apple or not. I think I remember him saying he didn't remember when I asked him back in Feb when I picked these up.

I'm pretty sure it's on pond Apple

That is why he is offering grafted trees on pond Apple .

He has had good results using it as a rootstock

I will email him to confirm

[Mike T]

Commercial growers here tried pond apple as rootstock for atemoya over a long period and finally recommended against that combination some time ago after ongoing g failures and problems.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Commercial growers here tried pond apple as rootstock for atemoya over a long period and finally recommended against that combination some time ago after ongoing g failures and problems.

sounds like the growers had a limited gene pool to select rootstock from.

it would behoove them to import some seeds from a variety known to be more compatible.

I believe the results might have been a bit different if they had the right variety.

[Mike T]

I wonder how many successfully grafted atemoyas on pond apple are out there enjoying long and fruitful lives.Thee must be heaps as it is tried pretty routinely and it would be good to hear from folk who gave give examples.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

I wonder how many successfully grafted atemoyas on pond apple are out there enjoying long and fruitful lives.Thee must be heaps as it is tried pretty routinely and it would be good to hear from folk who gave give examples.

It all depends on the variety Mike.  Have you tried grafting any Annonas?

http://university.uog.edu/cals/people/PUBS/Atemoya/MG33200.pdf

"PROPAGATION
Seedling trees grow vigorously and begin to fruit
at   3-5   years   of   age,   but   are   extremely   variable.
Grafted  trees  begin  to  bear  in  3-4  years.    Superior
selections can be propagated by budding or grafting
on rootstock-s of atemoya, sugar apple (A. squamosa),custard  apple  (A. reticulata),  and  pond  apple  (A.glabra).  Seedlings of custard apple are generally less variable.    Pond  apple  can  be  used  successfully  in
poorly  drained  soils  but  sometimes  there  is  a  graft
incompatibility   problem.      Sugar   apple   tends   to
produce a smaller, more compact, less vigorous tree.
Various types of graftage are successful, chip budding
or veneer grafting being the most common methods
in  Florida.   Propagation  is  most  successful  near  the
end  of  the  dormant  period,  especially  if  buds  are
beginning  to  break.  "

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Read this Mike...it supports my claims.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1998-vol-111/316%20%28ZILL%29.pdf

"We have heard reports from Laymond Hardy in West Palm Beach that he has been able to grow 'Gefner' atemoya on some clones of A. glabra rootstock, but not on many other clones. Richard Wilson at Excalibur Nursery in Lantana, Palm Beach County, Florida, for the past three years has been graft ing and selling
several annonas on A. glabra seedlings which are from one tree in Delray Beach; the scions include A. muricata var. 'Wilson Seedless', and the atemoyas 'Bradley', 'Gefner', and 'Priestley'. "
 

[Mike T]

The local pond apples are poor root stock for AP and the mammoth and related lines.at would good to see mature productive grafted trees from those more suitable pond apples.I have grafted a few species but admittedly not many Annonas but these 2 species look pretty different and good candidates for compatability problems.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Pond apple is not a good rootstock option for atemoya.Atemoya,cherimoya and sugar apple are better options.

sometimes, Pond apple is a decent rootstock for Atemoya.  It depends on several factors, like the variety of atemoya you have, the variety of pond apple you have, and your soil conditions (drainage in particular)

you should know there are always exceptions to the rule when considering the propagation of fruit trees.
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/84/6/771

[Mike T]

It would be gooed to see a big healthy and productive tree if one is really out there.None of the commercial farms use pond apple here and it would be great to know if they are used successfully and consistently in other places.
I reiterate,show me the tree.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

It would be gooed to see a big healthy and productive tree if one is really out there.None of the commercial farms use pond apple here and it would be great to know if they are used successfully and consistently in other places.
I reiterate,show me the tree.

Just don't rule it out as a viable rootstock...you didn't even mention the variability of compatibility of glabra, I've provided several links from reputable sources.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/2000-vol-113/15-16%20%28NUNEZ-ELISEA%29.pdf

[kh0110]

sometimes, Pond apple is a decent rootstock for Atemoya.  It depends on several factors, like the variety of atemoya you have, the variety of pond apple you have, and your soil conditions (drainage in particular)
...

I think for commercial growers, that would be a lot of dependencies and therefore a lot of risks.

[Mike T]

http://rfcarchives.org.au/Next/Fruits/CustardApple/AnnonaGrafting111-2-99.htm

The usual way to graft with pond apple

[FlyingFoxFruits]

sometimes, Pond apple is a decent rootstock for Atemoya.  It depends on several factors, like the variety of atemoya you have, the variety of pond apple you have, and your soil conditions (drainage in particular)
...

I think for commercial growers, that would be a lot of dependencies and therefore a lot of risks.

yes I agree...

with that said, I seldom graft atemoya onto A. glabra.

but i do have the variety that was mentioned by Har (in the articles I posted), which is more compatible.

and I have grafted many annonas onto these pond apples with good success, including the Dream.

I think it could be a great rootstock for a dooryard grower who has a lot that is too wet for growing atemoya, maybe somewhere in south FL.

even if the tree dies in less than 10 yrs...having 5 yrs of fruit production in a spot that would normally be useless, is of great value.

just keep in mind...some atemoyas are more compatible with annona glabra than others, even if the A. glabra is a highly compatible variety.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Adam, in that link it seems pretty unclear whether Wayne's are on pond apple or not. I think I remember him saying he didn't remember when I asked him back in Feb when I picked these up.

confirmed with Wayne via email, one of his inground Dreams is grafted onto Pond apple...and yes it has been fruiting.

[TheDom]

Adam, in that link it seems pretty unclear whether Wayne's are on pond apple or not. I think I remember him saying he didn't remember when I asked him back in Feb when I picked these up.

confirmed with Wayne via email, one of his inground Dreams is grafted onto Pond apple...and yes it has been fruiting.

Cool, thanks for checking with him.

Update: my friend's Dream dropped about 1/3 of its leaves and the remaining ones look much less droopy.

[bsbullie]

Same statement goes for Ilama on glabra.  I have seen some thrive and I have seen some tank...

When you've seen them tank before, is this what the tanking looked like?
[/quote]

It actually looked much worse.  Seemed ilama would hardly grow and glabra rootstock would keep trying to push growth.