Author Topic: Shocking! Watch for yourself  (Read 18382 times)

simon_grow

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Shocking! Watch for yourself
« on: July 29, 2017, 12:43:04 AM »
I care about all the members of this forum and I recently watched a show called "What the health" that just shocked me. I didn't do any research on the claims of that movie but I want to bring it up for discussion here. The movie is on Netflix and I strongly urge everyone on this forum to watch and keep an open mind. Let's stay civil. I want all of us to live healthier!

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 12:46:56 AM »
If you don't have Netflix, you can purchase it here
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/whatthehealth

Simon

roblack

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 09:03:35 AM »
Thanks for sharing, will check it out. The main reasons I grow food is to have tasty choices and for health benefits. We certainly have some cultural norms that are correlated with myriad health problems and diseases. Cancer, diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimers, and autism are but a few of the diseases that can be caused by diet or parent's diet/exposure to toxins. Eat well my friends!

ScottR

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2017, 11:12:36 AM »
Thanks for link Simon, will check it out!

JoeP450

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 12:44:37 AM »
After watching the movie the take home message is that eating a vegan diet is healthier. The producers achieve this outcome by interviewing people whith jobs/degrees in healthcare of which have their own books published on the topic, comparing the strength of large animals and their plant based diets, showing how dirty a pig farm is in North Carolina and that it's harmful to local environment, stating clinical studies on plant based diets, showing 3 patients taking many medications and then stopping them after two weeks of initiating a plant based diet and feeling wonderful, showing how major no profit organizations like ADA ACS are in the pockets of food corporations because they accept donations, a clip showing how shocked a person is to have initiated a FOIA request and to have the majority of it redacted for competitive reasons (I 😂 At this part), showing a statistic that 90% of meat has bacteria in it, and in the end interview physically stunning athletes with vegan diets.

I don't have all the answers, but I can confidently state that the movie did not answer the fundamental question that is: Are vegans devoid of chronic illness?

-joep450


stuartdaly88

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 03:11:38 AM »
Seems like a propaganda film...
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Mike T

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 03:59:02 AM »
Nah I only watched the trailer but its a bit too hyped. There is very little real science in most diet studies that can be projected on society or diets as a whole. People are living longer and are healthier generally than past generations but people are getting fatter with too much sugar in particular and that brings a whole lot of health challenges as does a lack of exercise that also is part and parcel in modern society. Too much junk food for sure as well. No one could argue that pharmaceutical companies are too powerful or that many drugs adversely impacts on people but the scale of impost is in question.
So far as what is the best diet for optimal health, there sure is a lot of controversy. Everyone seems to agree that less processed foods and less refined sugar in particular and more fruit and vegies is needed. My personal view on veganism is that a vegan diet that includes a modest a diverse range of meat would be better. Eggs, seafood, bird and mammal meats are primary proteins with nutrients not easily obtained from plant products. Our digestive enzymes, teeth and evolutionary history point to a significant proportion of Homo sapien diet should include meat. Not the 90% of Neanderthal or presumed 30% to 50% of many sapiens for tens of thousands of years but around 20%.I think veganism is probably a modern dietary choice as it is possible with the diversity of foods from all over the world available to everyone. Being a healthy vegan and getting enough nutrition would be a lot harder from a local area in the past.

fruitlovers

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Oscar

shot

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 08:31:47 AM »
https://putlocker.rs/watch/what-the-health.llomz/jz237n
free link


Most 100 year olds  I have met eat moderate not just vegan
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:38:08 AM by shot »

johnb51

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 09:29:26 AM »
I would agree with Mike T.  Humans are more or less omnivorous.  The real culprit is sugar, other refined carbohydrates and processed foods, and lack of exercise, which result in obesity and/or disease.  In addition, there are too many carcinogens in our environment, and many people have hereditary/genetic predispositions to certain diseases.  Also, when I still see so many young people smoking like it's the coolest thing in the world, I feel like screaming.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:33:06 PM by johnb51 »
John

fisherking73

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 10:52:54 AM »
I feel any extreme is not healthy........Like mentioned above we are omnivores, and back in the day would eat what was in season or at hand. The culprit is definitely processed foods. Things unnatural to our bodies. We get plenty of salt and sugar (or should get if eating a balanced diet of fruits and veggies)  yet both are added to everything we eat........not to mention things added I can not pronounce (and I am medical, and several degrees lol). Will take a looksy at this film, have heard friends mention it, some say its way left field, others say spot on. Will have to decide for myself I guess.

Caesar

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 11:05:25 AM »
The Wikipedia article (with adequate citations; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Health) says the following:

The documentary has been highly criticized by a number of medical doctors, nutritionists, and journalists for what they describe as confusing causation with correlation, cherry picking science studies, using biased sources, distorting study findings, and using "weak-to-non-existent data".

It goes on to detail who says what, but in summary... The documentary doesn't hold much water. It doesn't seem to use any false information, but there's a degree of bias in just which information is used and which one's ignored. You can't have an accurate view of the big picture without a complete account of the facts.

As an interesting aside, I found this a long time ago: http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/two-brave-men-who-ate-nothing-but-meat.html?m=1

Apparently, even a diet completely lacking in plants can be healthy, though I think there's a particular trick in just how to manage such a diet. No matter what you eat, be informed, proceed with caution, and always keep your health in mind. In fact, just eat balanced. I don't think it should be complicated.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:09:01 AM by Caesar »

roblack

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 11:35:34 AM »
Metabolism changes with age. By around the age of 50, people with higher animal protein diets showed higher rates of certain types of cancer. For those with Less than 10% of their diet from animal protein sources, they showed no increase rates of cancer. Those whose diets were 10 - 19% animal protein showed a 3x rate of cancer diagnoses. Those whose diets were 20% or greater from animal protein sources showed a 6x increase in cancer rates.

Lots of studies are showing similar types of trends. Processed meats, alcohol, preservatives, pesticides, herbicides, pharmaceuticals, and lots of other things we put in our bodies/food disrupt our bodies and biomes in ways we are just starting to understand.

With balance, eating meat for kids and young people certainly has health benefits. But as we age and change, so do our dietary needs and ability to process and get rid of toxins. 

Still haven't watched the video. Most videos and documentaries are hyped and biased. Does not mean it is wise to ignore the majority of scientists who are conducting peer reviewed research in the fields of biology, nutrition, illness, and aging. 

Used to be 90% carnivore. Have flipped it around and am loving it.

TheDom

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 12:00:35 PM »
When you have some fool trying to draw a parallel in cancer causing ability between meat and cigarettes and plutonium, it is a pretty safe bet that you're watching an animal rights activist's propaganda flick.

Didn't there used to be an off topic section for this sort of discussion? Is this sort of off topic discussion generally accepted as OK in this part of the forum now? Personally I'm not a fan but I'm usually good at ignoring it.
Dom

simon_grow

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 01:52:16 PM »
There used to be an off topic discussion but that has been removed.

In my opinion, the show is biased but there are some facts in there. In my local news, they recently announced that processed meats like bacon and red meats can likely cause certain types of cancer. This is not BS and the scariest thing about it is that the day after my wife saw the announcement on the news, we proceeded to a fast food restaurant and purchased sausage egg and cheese biscuits for ourselves and our daughters.

https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization-says-processed-meat-causes-cancer.html

We are getting so used to seeing lead and other health warnings that we seem to ignore them.

I've been a heavy meat eater all my life and I will probably continue to eat red and processed meats but I will definitely try my best to start eating more veggies, grown in my yard if possible.

I did go to the American Diabetes Association just to verify if the bacon wrapped shrimp was actually linked on their site and sure enough, it is.
http://google.diabetes.org/search?site=mfaRecipes&client=default_frontend&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&entqr=0&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ud=1&filter=p&proxystylesheet=microsite_mfa_recipe&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=main_recipe_ingredient.search_image.page_title.recipe_blurb&q=Bacon&requiredfields=

What unsettles me most are these Association and departments that I feel are supposed to protect the general public but seem to have lobbyists and check writers working for them.

Simon

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 04:29:26 PM »
ive been vegan for years and i feel better than i ever felt, One of my friends is a bodybuilder, eats meat and takes milk protein and supplements and he has been trying to keep up with me for years, Im not trying to show off so i won't post any pictures but i can say im almost steve reeves status and i eat no animal, fish or any of the sort, not even eggs, just fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, rice, beans, quinoa, lentils. So you don't need meat its just a desire for the taste is all.

rliou

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 09:10:09 PM »
As an internal medicine/pulmonary/critical care physician, I have to say the film is biased and is not really evidence based in any way.  The film maker started with some facts and truth to build credibility but then spun it in a completely different direction to serve his own agenda.  There is no doubt that lobbyist is everywhere in our society affecting every little thing we do in our lives.   Whether those money from these interest groups really affect the judgement of the guidelines, I really don't know (my guess is it does even its very little).  The film was somewhat credible until they follow those few patients for 2 weeks after being vegan.   I am sorry but patients choosing to come off their own medications for 2 weeks does NOT mean that they are all the sudden cured of all their diseases.  In fact, most of the deadly effects we see from chronic diseases come after months to years of having the disease.  What kills you from your hypertension is after years of hypertension and you get a deadly stroke.  Same with diabetes, most people don't even know they have it and can feel fine for months to years until they land themselve in the intensive care unit for diabetes ketoacidosis.  So bottom line is that 2 weeks is too short of a time to do anything.  They may be feeling better but it's probably placebo effect.

There is probably some benefits to being vegan but there are too many compounding variables to do a randomized controlled trial.  Vegans tend to be vegans because they want to be more healthy.  As a result, they tend to have better diet and exercise habits.  They most likely eat smaller portions and exercise 30 minutes or more per day.  So the effect they see may be confounded by those variables.

Bottom line is that we don't know if vegan is truly better than non-vegan diet at this time.  However, we do know that diet and exercise is good for us.  For those who want to given vegan diet a try, I would whole heartedly recommend it.  You just don't know if it works for you until you try it.
Robert

palmcity

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 10:24:38 PM »
https://authoritynutrition.com/7-supplements-for-vegans/

Pills, pills, pills, pills, pills, pills, and more pills....
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 10:45:34 PM by palmcity »

simon_grow

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 12:45:23 AM »
As an internal medicine/pulmonary/critical care physician, I have to say the film is biased and is not really evidence based in any way.  The film maker started with some facts and truth to build credibility but then spun it in a completely different direction to serve his own agenda.  There is no doubt that lobbyist is everywhere in our society affecting every little thing we do in our lives.   Whether those money from these interest groups really affect the judgement of the guidelines, I really don't know (my guess is it does even its very little).  The film was somewhat credible until they follow those few patients for 2 weeks after being vegan.   I am sorry but patients choosing to come off their own medications for 2 weeks does NOT mean that they are all the sudden cured of all their diseases.  In fact, most of the deadly effects we see from chronic diseases come after months to years of having the disease.  What kills you from your hypertension is after years of hypertension and you get a deadly stroke.  Same with diabetes, most people don't even know they have it and can feel fine for months to years until they land themselve in the intensive care unit for diabetes ketoacidosis.  So bottom line is that 2 weeks is too short of a time to do anything.  They may be feeling better but it's probably placebo effect.

There is probably some benefits to being vegan but there are too many compounding variables to do a randomized controlled trial.  Vegans tend to be vegans because they want to be more healthy.  As a result, they tend to have better diet and exercise habits.  They most likely eat smaller portions and exercise 30 minutes or more per day.  So the effect they see may be confounded by those variables.

Bottom line is that we don't know if vegan is truly better than non-vegan diet at this time.  However, we do know that diet and exercise is good for us.  For those who want to given vegan diet a try, I would whole heartedly recommend it.  You just don't know if it works for you until you try it.

Thanks for the information Dr. Robert! The patient that went off all those Meds after two weeks sounds so suspicious. As many people mentioned already, I think everything in moderation along with excercise is the best way to stay healthy. I love bacon, Spam, pepperoni and most types of processed meats and I'll probably continue eating them but in moderation.

Simon

Tropheus76

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 07:47:08 AM »
He had some good points but yeah mostly propaganda. I mean really, terminal cancer and they switched to a total vegan diet for a few weeks and it was all cleared up? Why didn't we know it was that simple?

johnb51

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 08:55:52 AM »
I love bacon, Spam, pepperoni and most types of processed meats and I'll probably continue eating them but in moderation.
Occasionally, I guess, shouldn't hurt much.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:54:31 AM by johnb51 »
John

PurpleAlligator

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 11:32:13 AM »
I'm a 7 year vegan eating mostly raw fruits and vegetables and juicing.  The film strikes a nerve with a lot of people but it is raising awareness. Big money controls the media and the message about what is good for you and what is not. There is no money to be made in being healthy and there is no money to be made in death. All the money, and there is a lot, is made in sick care. I don't call it health care because there is no cure being made, only symptoms being treated.  Only the body can heal itself and it has a remarkably ability to do so. You just have to feed it properly to do so. Historically eating meat was a luxury and done only on special occasions. Today people consume animal flesh multiple times per day all year.  I chose to be vegan to avoid chronic illness.  I haven't been sick in years and no longer get colds and flu. These really are just detox symptoms of the body that has become inflamed and lymph clogged with mucus. This population should be healthier than average due to high fruit consumption.  There likely will not be studies of control  to prove that my lifestyle is healthier than an omnivore lifestyle because it won't be funded as there is no money to be made that a vegan diet is healthier than a meat eating diet.  You can read the China Study if you are interested in a fact based population study. Also in the book The Blue Zones the only long lived group in the USA was a group of 7th day adventists in California. It's also a very good read.

Also watch the YouTube video by Dr Michael Klaper  My favorite quote being that no autopsy concluded that a person died from eating too much broccoli.

https://youtu.be/xUm6S1P02IY


Bush2Beach

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 11:54:11 AM »
Argument done on that note... For real though .
Loud and quiet vegetarians alike choose the diet for myriad different reasons, not just because they choose to be more more healthy. There are plenty of unhealthy "chipitarians" eating potato, corn chips and pasta and carbs to survive, not so balanced. Most I've met are over the factory farming of animals or just killing of animals in general , or the gnarly process associated with "processing" thie animals.
I didn't watch, avoid hype on both sides.

simon_grow

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 12:08:34 PM »
I love bacon, Spam, pepperoni and most types of processed meats and I'll probably continue eating them but in moderation.
Make them an occasional treat, okay Simon?  Like once or twice a week--one item out of that group.  The average person should be able to handle that.  (Just looking out for your health if that's okay!)

Good looking out Johnb51, will do. I haven't purchased any bacon since watching the movie but i did have a supreme pizza with sausage and bacon but there wasn't much. My normal diet typically consists of lots of meat, some fruit and very little veggies.

As many of you are aware, I had severe health issues last year and that was when I started changing my diet and increasing my aerobic excercise. I started eating a lot more fruit and veggies combined with jogging 2-3 times a week and I feel back to normal now. Switching from a mostly meat diet like I used to have was extremely difficult but juicing( wheatgrass and other veggies) helped a lot. I know I need the fiber I'm getting rid of by juicing but at least I'm taking baby steps.

One thing kinda gross but true is that when you start eating a lot more veggies, your farts don't stink anymore, Lucky for all my friends, lol!

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Shocking! Watch for yourself
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2017, 12:16:30 PM »
I'm a 7 year vegan eating mostly raw fruits and vegetables and juicing.  The film strikes a nerve with a lot of people but it is raising awareness. Big money controls the media and the message about what is good for you and what is not. There is no money to be made in being healthy and there is no money to be made in death. All the money, and there is a lot, is made in sick care. I don't call it health care because there is no cure being made, only symptoms being treated.  Only the body can heal itself and it has a remarkably ability to do so. You just have to feed it properly to do so. Historically eating meat was a luxury and done only on special occasions. Today people consume animal flesh multiple times per day all year.  I chose to be vegan to avoid chronic illness.  I haven't been sick in years and no longer get colds and flu. These really are just detox symptoms of the body that has become inflamed and lymph clogged with mucus. This population should be healthier than average due to high fruit consumption.  There likely will not be studies of control  to prove that my lifestyle is healthier than an omnivore lifestyle because it won't be funded as there is no money to be made that a vegan diet is healthier than a meat eating diet.  You can read the China Study if you are interested in a fact based population study. Also in the book The Blue Zones the only long lived group in the USA was a group of 7th day adventists in California. It's also a very good read.

Also watch the YouTube video by Dr Michael Klaper  My favorite quote being that no autopsy concluded that a person died from eating too much broccoli.

https://youtu.be/xUm6S1P02IY

Purple Alligator, thanks for sharing that video! I only watched part of it but I'll finish watching the rest later.

Simon

 

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