Not enough Durian Discussion

[0hip]

Go on a google earth tour of SEA and every man and his dog is starting a durian farm. Sometimes I think that when you’re in the optimal range you could just throw a durian by the side of the rod and it’ll grow just just fine.

In better news everywhere that my durian lost leaves it pushed through new flushes. The new leader is just about to overtake as the plants heights point within a month. Next winter will be the real teller if they will survive or not

[jimreevescairns]

Photo of the one successful graft onto a side branch of my shitty durian that I cut down. We tried grafting onto side shoots as that was most akin to what we were used to.
The right side of the photo shows multiple failed ones.
The one that took was a Peter Knudsen.
The old umbrella and shade cloth are to keep the afternoon sun and heaviest rain off it.
So far so good ….. hoping once it’s properly established it should grow like a rocket!
I’ll wait until it’s much much bigger before taking the trunk above it off.
Trina ( lady who grafted it) suggested to keep the new shoots mostly cut to encourage growth of the scion.
It was putting out a cm every few days but has slowed a bit in last couple of weeks

[Gone tropo]

Beautiful little ganyao durian this one was only 1kg I chose the smallest one and perfectly ripe had more edible flesh than the 3.4kg partially ripe monthong I had the other day. Gunna grow a seedling from this one.

[Finca La Isla]

Nice, I think Ganyao has a much better reputation than mongthong. I have a grafted tree that is from a seedling of Ganyao. The seedling came very good so I imagine yours will as well.
Peter

[Gone tropo]

Nice, I think Ganyao has a much better reputation than mongthong. I have a grafted tree that is from a seedling of Ganyao. The seedling came very good so I imagine yours will as well.
Peter

Great to hear Peter, I actually have a grafted ganyao in the ground already that grows at snails pace probably be 40 years before that one fruits. I’m not afraid to have a go with seedlings I have several seedling trees. My mate has several monthong seedling trees that seem to be growing very very well.

[fruit nerd]

I have a gan yao seedling from last season which I planted in Nov. Also have a grafted gan yao which I planted in Dec. The grafted tree has grown ~10cm and seems to be established now.

[cassowary]

Beautiful little ganyao durian this one was only 1kg I chose the smallest one and perfectly ripe had more edible flesh than the 3.4kg partially ripe monthong I had the other day. Gunna grow a seedling from this one.

IMO that is NOT a Kan yao durian fruit,
Have eaten a lot of them in Thailand because spent months there over many years.
It's actually quite far off from a Kan yao. Stalk to short (it's not as long as images on internet because that is picked fruit), flesh has wrong color (should be yellow), the aril looks like it has more monthong consistency (non smooth, stringy) then Kan yao (smooth), monthong and Kan yao is polar opposite when it comes to aril consistency.
Sorry not trying to be mean but someone gotta be the durian police :/

I know of 3 farms in FNQ that supposedly have Kan Yao but none of their fruits are Kan Yao IMO.
Naming a fruit Kan Yao gives premium price so there's incentive for "shady" business.

Tropical fruit hunters,
Yeah true especially graveolens, but good durian stock from borneo are also very tollerant to rot root and flooding.

Systemic pesticides are mainstay these days.

[Gone tropo]

Cassowary Im certainly no expert on ganyao sounds like you have a lot more experience with it.  This however was not bought at local markets or unknown persons it is from a family i know who are very knowledgeable on tropical fruits. A few generations back they were a part of the original group of people in the 70's and 80's who bought grafted trees back to australia from thailand So i dont really know what to think of this.

I do agree with you though i dont understand why the flesh is not bright yellow, i do wonder however if that is to do with our soils here? I have yet to see any durian in Australia that show the bright yellow colouration of those in thailand and malaysia? The grafted kradomthong i had at fruit forest farm also didnt have the bright yellow i see from thailand photos and videos ??

Has anyone else here in Australia noticed this also ? Maybe we get too much rain at the wrong time of the year that washes the colour down is this possible? Maybe our soils are deficient in something that makes them “yellow up” I also notice a lot of durians here get a "golden yellow" outside shell colour maybe from too intense sun? Most of the ones i see on videos in malyasia and thailand appear quite brown on the outside when ripe sometimes green?

[Finca La Isla]

Cassowary, that systemic pesticides are widely used in Thailand doesn’t surprise me but it’s not what I found in Malaysia. What systemic pesticides are you referring to?
On major farms I saw the use of EM and biological control products like baccilus thurgensis. I don’t think those are compatible with conventional pesticides.
Some places you see herbicides and they’re probably using nematacides as well. But I listened to farmers trash talking herbicides and talking about the necessity of living soil with lots of worms. Control of erosion is also a concern.
Peter

[fruit nerd]

I understand that varieties have commonly been mislabeled/misidentified in Australia. Then add the fact the people will grow seedlings from clones and will refer to them as monthong or gan yao for example. Gets complicate very quickly. The durian posted by Gone tropo certainly had a long stem (compare to other durians) and the size and shape looks right to me. Agree though about the flesh colour. Regarding colour, this is from a durian last season. Nice colour I think -

[cassowary]

Cassowary, that systemic pesticides are widely used in Thailand doesn’t surprise me but it’s not what I found in Malaysia. What systemic pesticides are you referring to?
On major farms I saw the use of EM and biological control products like baccilus thurgensis. I don’t think those are compatible with conventional pesticides.
Some places you see herbicides and they’re probably using nematacides as well. But I listened to farmers trash talking herbicides and talking about the necessity of living soil with lots of worms. Control of erosion is also a concern.
Peter

Hi Peter,
In Malaysia where the tree's are sometimes large it wouldn't work very well with a foliar application so I doubt they use it in those situations as a foliar application. It would be applied by injection into the stem, it goes into the sap and becomes systemic.
IMO "Mono crop" orchards with musang king would likely have this in their schedule to protect from herbivores and also steam borers.
I can not name a particular active substance as it depends on what they are trying to kill and I don't use it myself and there would be different products available over there from here.
I have not been in Malaysia, but have seen many youtube videos. You would know better what they do in Malaysia then me.

I know of one farmer in AU with durian tree's that uses systemic insecticide to reduce fruit spotting bug so that the young fruits don't drop of when being pierced by this insect. At least 4 different types of systemic is available on the shelf at local hardware store here. Of course the most effective Byer stuff is not as far as I know.

I would guess that BT would not be affected by systemic insecticides because BT has different cell membranes. Bacteria are quite different from insects. Eg. Phytophra is an algae and have cellulose cell walls while some have Chitin based cell walls.

Yep fruit nerd, that looks like a mon thong to me. And that looks like a good one too
I am certain that the real mon thong is in AU, the one I have tasted that was labeld as mon thong was the same as the ones in Thailand

Peace

[fruit nerd]

Bought some more durian today. This fruit was sold as ganyao and was excellent with nice yellow flesh and strong flavour.

[Gone tropo]

Bought some more durian today. This fruit was sold as ganyao and was excellent with nice yellow flesh and strong flavour.

That looks sensational mate well done

[cassowary]

The durian police is out again

Flesh too pale and thorns on husk to wide.
I'v eaten at least 30 Kan Yao in Thailand.
I wasn't able to find images because it's on a hard drive somewhere.

Here's some images that gives a fair representation of Kan Yao IMO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJtKEZZWEXE

Yeah they are that Yellow IRL.

I have a hard time to accept that our local soil, environment and practices would affect a cultivar that much.

That still looks like a great durian to me!

---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1a9pDi6TdI&t=196s

Yeah that's a systemic fungicide.
Apparently used in AU too.

Difenoconazole
https://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/ppdb/en/Reports/230.htm
"Mode of action
   Systemic with preventative and curative action. Disrupts membrane function - inhibition of demethylation during ergosterol synthesis."

"persistent in soil and in the aquatic environment"

This one is broad spectrum so would also harm beneficial fungi. Feels like the wrong way to go.

Peace

[fruit nerd]

cassowary, what ever it was, it was certainly a good one

[Finca La Isla]

We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter

[cassowary]

We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter

Finca,
Have you seen any difference if fruit characteristics from cloned tree's that you are certain are the cultivar?
Or are the fruits pretty much identical to the clones description on average?
Would be good with some more input on how the environment could potentially affect the fruit outcome from a clone.

Peace

[Gone tropo]

We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter

Finca,
Have you seen any difference if fruit characteristics from cloned tree's that you are certain are the cultivar?
Or are the fruits pretty much identical to the clones description on average?
Would be good with some more input on how the environment could potentially affect the fruit outcome from a clone.

Peace

I would be interested to hear Peters comments on this as well considering he is in Costa rica.  I know Oscar from hawaii who used to post on this forum and in this thread in the early parts said that he planted roughly 50/50 seedling and grafted trees and that his seedling trees mostly produced the better fruit there from his orchard.

He also said that other growers he knew in hawaii who had grown ganyao clones there were pulling out the trees as the fruits were junk and not comparable to thailand....One can only assume climate and soils were having an affect.  There is a good website from a guy in hawaii called mike parker called something like empi fruits or something its one of the best sites re durian information outside SE Asia which is applicable to most people participating in this thread. 

He talks a bit about how certain clones perform in hawaii both good and bad and gives some good general information.  One thing that stood out to me was that they were finding large durian like monthong and Gumpun showing uneven ripening and this has been reported by many over there.  They are focusing on the smaller fruits for this reason as they dont have that problem.

[Finca La Isla]

This is a very interesting subject.
First off it seems that Thai varieties grown in Malaysia can be different from those in Thailand.
Mongthong can have problems of uneven ripening in Thailand.
All this according to Lindsay.
We are barely getting started here. The D-99 we grow can be terrific, but not always. Fruits from the same tree can vary. We have had very good Chanee off a young tree here. There is mongthong and musang king in production in CR but only within the last 3-5 years!
One of these areas is marginally suitable with very dry winds. Another has its harvest during the rainy season which doesn’t help quality. In Costa Rica most durian planting occurs on the Caribbean coast where we are or near the Pacific coast in the southern section. The country is small but the climate varies considerably from one region to another.
There are some good seedlings and we are working hard on seedlings to develop our own varieties. But nobody is pulling out Asian selections. Lots of seedlings were distributed by an NGO in the 80’s.  Only a few of those would be worth grafting.  Most tree buyers desire the Asian varieties so far.

[Gone tropo]

Peter you comments match what some of the generational durian growers i have spoken too have said here.  In particular quality decline with wet season.  Unfortunately, our durian season is in our wet season and when we have a massive wet season like we are having now quality declines, this is what I have been told by growers here with 40 year old trees. So the quality from the same trees is not the same year to year depending on weather.

I have seen it said a few times that it is easier to add water than it is to stop water, i personally think the drier areas along the coast here could be more suitable for durian quality than where they are mostly grown now.  Areas around cairns and then further north in the Bloomfield area that average 2000mm a year that could have supplemental irrigation in the dry season would be better off than the areas that average 3000-4000mm+ a year.

Lindsay has mentioned this before about malaysia and how the wet areas of malaysia with 4000mm a year average like taiping are not known durian growing areas and dont produce durian of the same quality as penang with a much drier climate.

[Finca La Isla]

Yeah, there are a few trade offs. Penang gets about 2500mm a year but since it has distinct dry and wet seasons they only get one harvest whereas if you have two short dry seasons you can get two fruit seasons like in Pahang where I was a month ago. Parts of Pahang get higher rainfall.
It’s commonly believed that Black Thorn doesn’t do well in the conditions of Pahang but is great for Penang. In Pahang they are quite pleased with Musang King so it seems that you need to match the variety with the location.
There could be lots of factors involved besides rainfall patterns to get the most successful match. It’s tricky. I think that this is where planting seedlings comes in. Ideally we will find new varieties especially suited to our conditions. More Malaysians are now mounding in rainy areas and getting good results.
Still, we are planting Malaysian selections since the quality is so good. It’s a learning process, mostly lots of fun but tempered with some disappointment as we advance along.
Peter

[cassowary]

Eating from same tree's for 5 years I can tell there is a different in characteristics from year to year in some types, not all.
Even if the fruits fall to ground naturally and ripen up, not aborted or diseased etc.

Now a big consideration. Does a cultivar specify a specific fruit quality (customer in mind) or a specific genetic quality (farmer in mind).
In one scenario it wouldn't be fair for me as a consumer to call "fake" on some ones Kan Yao fruit from a cloned tree. Or is it still fair since I the customer are focusing on the fruit quality (I want Kan Yao!).

I feel like the customer has the last say, since I myself wouldn't be to happy If I go to the supermarket to buy Royal Gala but they look like Granny smith because they didn't get color for some reason (but still from Royal gala cloned tree).

Maybe we will never get Kan Yao in Australia haha
Or maybe new practice's and new growing areas have to be explored as Tropo said to get the clone to put out Kan Yao quality fruit.
Also in Thailand they have competitions/auctions where they compete within the same clone category, so different soil and ag practices have effect even in Thailand.
If you google you will find mostly auctions that is more for PR then real but I have seen articles of legit high prices for specific durian fruit quality.

Maybe in the future we could take a photo of the highest quality fruit we have at the farm and people on the app can bid on it and get it air shipped inside a cooler.

Peace

[Finca La Isla]

Ultimately it has to be what’s best for the consumer. I am the president of our farmers market and there is a tendency of some to favor the vendors but we need, above all, consumer satisfaction. In Australia if your customers are happy it doesn’t matter what’s happening in Thailand.
The photo is of prices at a stand in Penang last month. You can see that there are different qualities of Bkack thorn and musang king. There are at least 3 grades or qualities determined for the same durian varieties. Incidentally, these prices are about double what I saw in the production zones.
Peter

[TropicalFruitHunters]

Never understood the grading of fruit.  In my opinion and experience, it rarely, if ever, truly applies to the quality of the fruit.  All visual.  Most of the world is conditioned to want perfect looking fruit and vegetables.  I've had mangosteens covered in gamboge that were stunning and tasty as any could be.  On the flip side, I've had many of the beautiful, high grade fruit that were a complete mess inside.  I'm sure there's more to this, but I'm also betting most of people are more palate-challenged than not, and would probably never distinguish the difference.  So bring on the uglies!  I'll take a low grade, tree-dropped, properly ripened, durian any time.  I'll spend less and enjoy more.

[Finca La Isla]

I agree with that.
Here you can see a few opened kampung durians in Pahang. Many times I’ve seen Lindsay sort through piles of low priced durians and extract something very tasty.
At the stand you see black thorn at $US12kg and Kampung $1.50kg!
Peter