Author Topic: Cold hardy lemons  (Read 2309 times)

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2022, 10:44:45 AM »
Selection within mass populations of F² and higher generations containing both Poncirus and Citrus genetics on both parents' sides should allow the opportunity for a very small number of progeny to restore the homogeneous state of desirable genes from Poncirus, as well as Citrus, in regards to cold hardiness and palatability.
Linkages obviously complicate and delay the process. A number of selections from the F² trial I undertook several years ago approach Poncirus cold hardiness, while also exhibiting a few Citrus characteristics. By further selection amongst the F³ generation, utilizing the hardy F² generation as parents, the percentage of cold hardy survivors should increase substantially. At this point, selection could be made for edibility.
Nucellar embryony is a considerable hindrance to the process and the more quickly completely zygotic breeding lines can be established, the better.

The discovery of an initial zygotic selection with the full hardiness of Poncirus combined with even mediocre taste can accelerate the process from a breeding perspective, if not from a widely accepted cultivar introduction.
I'm happy to see you commenting, your hardiness trial posts are a major inspiration for this. Before I write this down and get laughed at please remember I'm an idealistic novice:

Actually when I first thought of this I imagined a Kumin style mass trial for various lemon-esque hardy evergreens using rootstock seeds from Lyn Citrus: https://lyncitrusseed.com/rootstock-seed/ they have yuzu, volkamericana. Do a trial in a zone 7 area and then have the next generation of those tested in a colder zone.
The cons of this came fast: I'm in a zone 8 / zone 7 cusp area so the selection pressure may not be enough to produce something interesting and I have limited access to land. One day hopefully.

Back to the new plan I think this is a goal that could be accomplished on a smaller scale than citranges IF the goal is "zone 8 improved lemon hybrid" - going colder is another option to be taken from there too with poncirus heritage.

maesy

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2022, 02:19:31 PM »
Thomasville citrangequat would also be a good substitute for a lemon.
Very juicy, tasty and when fully ripe sweet with eatable rind almost like a kumquat.
And very frost hardy as too.

mikkel

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2022, 04:30:58 PM »
I have been thinking about this awhile so maybe I should just dump my thoughts into a post.

Yes, it would be nice to hear!

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2022, 04:16:33 AM »
Ok so this is an almost stream-of-conscious 2 part write up with some notes and redundancy:

1. The mass trial method - Inspired by Kumin's posts
I was thinking buying a whole sale amount of yuzu, taiwanica, volkamer etc  for a large plant out and taking seeds from survivors grex style etc

Note: this would have been less about lemons and a longer term project looking to push various zone 8 citrus (yuzu in particular) hardiness further using mass planting and natural selection. These hardier prodigies' progeny could be used for other breeding goals.
http://thecitrusguy.blogspot.com/2010/08/to-seed-or-not-to-seed.html?m=1

Considerations:
●Zones: i feel a trial would need to take place in a zone 7 (a or b) area - this would push towards the hardier genetics without tipping to the wipe out point. Ofc one could go straight to a colder zone areas and trial as they please.
My plan would be: mass trial -> breed survivors -> send seeds to colder place -> repeat

My area isn't particularly a good "make or break" zone for hardy citrus, I imagine they'd find it too comfortable. I may also be over/underestimating how hardy these are (most nursery stay zone 8 so thats what I’m repeating, I haven’t looked into papers or anecdotes)

●Seeds: For several promising hardy citrus there is simply no mass producer of the seeds, finding stock for ichang lemon, kumquats,   - you'd need to be your own supplier.
Maybe this isnt the biggest issue esp for people with their own orchards but it is a consideration because it adds time to getting seeds. Many users on here know the feeling of losing a single precious cross,. Citranges have an advantage in this area as their use as industry rootstock leads to higher availability

●species prioritization - I can say I wouldn’t want too many if any poncirus hybrids in this, (almost “hardy” citrus is the focus as poncirus is proven) but should a mass planting include mixed plants?  I’d prefer a mixed grow but that brings its own issues if one’s concerned about parentage etc. Perhaps a line should be focused on a time?

●Time - this would take years to bear fruit from seed but that’s a given

▪︎On a personal level I simply don't have the space required.

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2022, 04:25:28 AM »
part 2: this is extra messy
2.) hybridization   - Using already available cultivars to breed something new

In order to do this I needed information on what to select for. I used Hamlin orange as an approximate example so people know what I meant in the first post.

Basic criteria:
○A history of taking below freezing temperatures
▪︎(for actual lemons close(r) to freezing, at least hardier than standard)
○Ripens before dec, preferably oct-nov
○Lemon flavor / sour

points made by members:
>Frost destroys fruit so we'd need something that sets before frost.
> as @ pointed out lemons can take 9 months ??
> "cold hardy" is relative for the 2 or 3 big, warm citrus states (CA, FL & TX)


(From here you can go through the thread and see my thought process as you all helped me eliminate or reconsider many choices.)

Project goals:
An improved, hardy lemon tasting citrus - must be able to survive zone 8a to zone 7 no protection and fruit before frost.

Project notes: for zone 8 there is decent hardy citrus besides mandarins. They aren't very flavorful, not sour and don't have lemon flavor notes.

Further projects:
Using poncirus crosses to get a deciduous lemon - this would take generations

From here I decided I'd try to use Harvey, Meyer, Citremon and Ichang lemon (while keeping an open mind) and my initial planned crosses:
Meyer x citremon
Meyer x harvey
IL x harvey
IL x citremon

Knowing meyer & IL are monoembeyonic would save a lot of concerns about cloning. The F1s would be bred to each other.


Lemon choice alternatives:
Sunquat(?)
Genoa
Interdonato (? fall bearer + greater citron heritage)
Bearss lime (NOT hardy but monoembryonic, low seeded & crops in Oct, perhaps a start for a hardy lime spin off)

Hardy citrus* of interest :
Ichang Papeda - CRC 3931
Khasi Papeda - CRC 3052
Citrus Hongheensis - CRC 3797

Hyuganatsu (bland yuzu pomelo hybrid I havent tried, but its heritage is similar to Ichang lemon which I like and supposedly its not too seedy)

Citrangequats? (Could dilute lemon flavors too much)
note: Ive heard ichang papeda x poncirus crosses lend to less bitter hybrids (n1tr1 is supposedly one).
But ichang lemon isnt papeda - a forum expert (ilya) said its yuzu x pomelo. Would this mix challenge any off poncirus flavors? Does it matter? No but still something to look into anyways.

* this was just a quick list

Smaller things thatd be nice:
•Bright yellow rind & flesh - hardy varieties tend to be so dull
•A flavorful rind
•Shape, Id prefer that pinched end oval shape but beggars aren't choosers
•Smooth rind
°"Juicyness"? Most of this can come later


-

IF any of you know the gene(s) related to hardiness and flavor you can use program to
https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1ShEUyKkSrhGRADCw9ertgjF5OrfNTjSW?usp=sharing
•Details on how to run (need google account sadly) and creator here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PlantBreedingForPermaculture/posts/1989725684524388/

Other ideas; I want to reach out to an org that helps organize collaborative plant breeding

I don’t know all the agricultural terms and please excuse any presumptive-ness as that’s not my intent.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2022, 07:03:09 AM »
I do have a small Yuzu tree growing in the same yard space as a large Eureka lemon in climate zone 10. I suppose I could try to do a cross pollination and share some seeds. I highly doubt the offspring could grow in zone 8 though.

Walt

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2022, 11:07:04 AM »
"Other ideas; I want to reach out to an org that helps organize collaborative plant breeding"

Experimental Farm Network.  Google it.  It has been operating for several years. 
It

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2022, 01:41:02 PM »
"Other ideas; I want to reach out to an org that helps organize collaborative plant breeding"

Experimental Farm Network.  Google it.  It has been operating for several years. 
It
I know, thats the exact one I was thinking of.

I do have a small Yuzu tree growing in the same yard space as a large Eureka lemon in climate zone 10. I suppose I could try to do a cross pollination and share some seeds. I highly doubt the offspring could grow in zone 8 though.
Never know unless you try. A lot of this stuff would be up to luck and the numbers game with educated guesses helping out.

mikkel

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2022, 06:15:01 PM »

In my garden, seedlings of Khasi Papeda are not as hardy as those of Ichang Papeda. I P loses younger leaves and summer shoots freeze back. But Khasi Papeda dies above ground every winter, but came back every time. But it survives with difficulty and has little growth.I still have one plant from originally over a hundred.

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2022, 05:01:12 AM »

In my garden, seedlings of Khasi Papeda are not as hardy as those of Ichang Papeda. I P loses younger leaves and summer shoots freeze back. But Khasi Papeda dies above ground every winter, but came back every time. But it survives with difficulty and has little growth.I still have one plant from originally over a hundred.
You're the only person I've seen mention growing these I think.
I'm disappointed to hear this especially that even the sole survivor isn't that vigorous.  :-[

I lightly looked into Indian citrus varieties from the mountainous region of the country (Assam etc) but their hardiness may be an example of that "hardy for warm areas" point brought up earlier.

===
posting some more references-
Here's a good forum post a few years old that talks about how much hardiness can vary for many reasons:
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=24371.0
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 05:04:14 AM by Pandan »

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2022, 03:18:56 PM »
Has anyone grown or tried hanayu?

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/CRC3469.html
EMN, 11/23/1988: A small, yellow, seedy fruit; very sour. Somewhat lemon-like in flavor.
It doesn't say anything about hardiness but I assume its hardy like its kabosu n such.

but also interestingly I found a paper that mentions hanayu crosses (along with yuzu & kabosu) having precocious flowering.
https://catalog.lib.kyushu-u.ac.jp/opac_download_md/4675/p615.pdf

found 1 mention of it on the form, enncouragingly compared to lemon as well https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31460.msg353093#msg353093
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 03:26:45 PM by Pandan »

Florian

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2022, 02:49:11 PM »
Has anyone grown or tried hanayu?

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/CRC3469.html
EMN, 11/23/1988: A small, yellow, seedy fruit; very sour. Somewhat lemon-like in flavor.
It doesn't say anything about hardiness but I assume its hardy like its kabosu n such.

but also interestingly I found a paper that mentions hanayu crosses (along with yuzu & kabosu) having precocious flowering.
https://catalog.lib.kyushu-u.ac.jp/opac_download_md/4675/p615.pdf

found 1 mention of it on the form, enncouragingly compared to lemon as well https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31460.msg353093#msg353093

The taste of the peel and juice are very close to normal Yuzu but the fruit is much smaller. One advantage is that it is a very prolific bearer. Also, it contains fewer seeds than Yuzu but still a lot. It is somewhat juicier than Yuzu but since it is also smaller, there is not really a lot of juice. I gave mine away last year. I didn't find it "very sour" as th ucr page suggests. I certainly wouldn't consider it a substitute for a lemon.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 02:52:21 PM by Florian »

mikkel

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2022, 05:50:34 PM »
Once I ate a fruit, and all I remember is that it was the sourest thing I have ever experienced. But I have often read that it is not very sour.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 06:42:56 PM by mikkel »

Pandan

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2022, 11:42:38 PM »
Interesting, I wonder if like kabosu its only sour before ripening? In any matter I find it more interesting than standard yuzu even if the size is small.

Millet

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM »
For my 2 cents worth.  My opinion is, all of the various Yuzu strains and yuzu hybrids are simply not worth investing ones time and money in growing them, and most especially if your  intent is to eat any of them.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2022, 09:12:27 PM »
For my 2 cents worth.  My opinion is, all of the various Yuzu strains and yuzu hybrids are simply not worth investing ones time and money in growing them, and most especially if your  intent is to eat any of them.
I have a different opinion from you. I can understand why some people would say that. Yuzu is not really a "high quality" fruit, compared to any normal lemon. But it has no bad off flavors, is definitely possible to eat, and is pretty hardy and cold tolerant for a lemon. That combination of hardiness with edibility could be a good starting point, in my opinion. It may not be an excellent fruit, and it does not have the level of cold tolerance of poncirus hybrids, but can you find any other citrus that is as cold tolerant as Yuzu which tastes as good, or is as edible as Yuzu but is more cold tolerant? I don't think you will.
Yuzu is great to add flavor to other things, and especially the peel is tender, not too bitter, and has lots of flavor. Something else to keep in mind is that harvest time does matter.

Those who say Yuzu is terrible, I have to imagine that those people live in a zone 9 or 10 climate where they can grow better tasting citrus varieties. Once you get into zone 8, your options become more limited, and then Yuzu might be something you might want to consider, if you want to be able to grow anything outside.

Unless you value Yuzu for the peel and understand how the peel can be used, I can see how some people might not understand how Yuzu is worthwhile to grow. But the inside is edible. Although it can be a little watery and bland, the inside flesh is a bit dry, does not have much juice, and of course the inside is packed full of a large number of large-sized seeds that take up a large volume of space. I get a lemon, sour orange, mandarin orange, and a little bit of almost grapefruit flavor from the inside segments.

When I say the inside is edible, perhaps I mean something that a child would snack on and forage for in the wild, or that you could eat in a survival situation.

Yuzu has a very fragrant and unique smell, that to some people compensates for its low quality fruit. The important thing is that the fruits do not have bitterness, like some other fragrant orange citrus fruits.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 09:24:27 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Cold hardy lemons
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2022, 09:29:49 PM »
Interesting, I wonder if like kabosu its only sour before ripening?
I have had one picked from the tree that was fully ripe (but grown in a cool short season climate).
They are about as sour as a Meyer lemon, but just a little bit watery, bland, and insipid inside. They might be a little less acidic than a Meyer lemon due to being watery. This was when it had reached a full yellowish-orange color.
You want to pick them when they are still mostly green.

The peel makes a good marmalade at this stage though, when they are orange.

I will say that the inside quality of Kabosu, fully ripe, is definitely better than Yuzu, if you are only focusing on eating the inside. It is a little like Yuzu, but also like a Meyer lemon and even maybe just a little bit like an orange. Not great flavor, but definitely edible inside. Though this is still not something you would buy from the store if you were only wanting it to eat the inside.

Lastly, I will say that the leaves on my Sudachi survived through a zone 8a Pacific Northwest winter, but I think that was only because the trunk was bent down by the weight of the snow causing the entire plant to be buried under the snow. If it had been exposed to the above air, the leaves would have been completely fried and there would have been severe stem damage and branch death.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 09:42:58 PM by SoCal2warm »

 

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